Why the Ettermoors are Fun... and Illum is Not

[Leontwo]

I'm not sure why some people think LOTRO pvp was good :/ you missed out of the first 3 tiers of warhammer online and the Open world RVR of DAOC. Now that was pvp/rvr combat!

[presidentm]

I didnt play LOTRO but Illum is only fun when you have almost equal sides to fight with, that is the only time it becomes a fun experience as there is no real objective to accomplish the way it works just now.

 

My server is Imp dominated for alot of the time lately though the repubs have begun to put up a great fight and I am enjoying the back and forth mass pvp.

 

I would very much like to see SWtor build on the rvr system warhammer had only make it a whole lot better but some things Warhammer got almost right were reason to gain control and hold objectives, the objectives also had NPCs to protect the keep/fort/Objective so in most cases required a party to take the objectives and the bigger the objective the more people you needed.

 

The Objectives on illum need to have a global effect not just on illum when you hold them all, and have some incentive to both gain control of and keep control of individual points in illum only. This worked pretty well in Warhammer for me at least with the RVR basins something similar is needed in SWtor

[olagaton]

ettenmoors was not fun in any way imaginable. both sides were unbalanced. too much CC. not enough action. too much dying, with no penalties. granted swtor isn't any better, neither would/should be considered a shining star of PvP.

[Fraeg]

Then you have never been in a Raid lead by me , COBRA. I Raid Ilum everyday. What does that tell me?? You have no idea what you are talking about b/c you have never even given it a try.

 

 

 

Just wondering what is your valor rank?

 

 

derpy derp

 

 

I imagine if the forums kept track of posts you would be comparing the post counts next?

News flash: you do not need to be valor rank 60+ to be able to make observations about Ilum.

 

 

as for the OP and others, LOTRO and DaoC had some great things that these devs managed to miss in a big way.

[Fraeg]

I'm not sure why some people think LOTRO pvp was good :/ you missed out of the first 3 tiers of warhammer online and the Open world RVR of DAOC. Now that was pvp/rvr combat!

 

1) Daoc was great

2) when was the last time you checked out the Moors in LOTRO?

3) Warhammer, we are going to have to agree to disagree. Beta had its moments, but release was the Bullet Train to Fail IMO.

[_Mech_]

To address the OP...

 

In my own opinion:

When I go to an Open World PvP zone, I expect to PvP...

To preform PvE actions (i.e. killing NPCs) in a PvP zone is contradictory, unsatisfying and annoying.

 

So if I have to pull/fight NPCs to get to my PvP goal (killing other players), its gonna get old.

 

Having played LotRO since open beta and being well versed in the nature of the Ettenmoors, coming to an Open World PvP map with ZERO NPCs is incredibly refreshing. I can freely fight any Imperial I find, anywhere on the map (exception of Imperial/Republic base) without thinking about...

 

"where is this guy gonna try to run when he starts to get low on health?"

"how close can i get before the NPCs aggro me?"

"id better not heal that guy too much that just ran into a group of NPCs to get the kb on someone who was low health, ill probably get all the aggro."

"i want to go to the ettenmoors, but no one else on my faction is out...oh i know, ill go stand in the middle of all my NPCs and watch the other side watch me"

Edited February 10, 2012 by _Mech_

[Brodsterr]

I played LOTRO for 2 years.( I lived in the moors.) I am valor rank 72. I now live in Ilum. This game is awesome. Do not change anything ! Just keep adding to it BioWare.

 

 

 

Signed,

Someone who has played more than you.

 

I was the first rank 12 and 13 in lotro... but this game still seems more enjoyable. Also lotro freeps were usually way outnumbered, but granted creeps as a whole were worse pound for pound.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Brodsterr

[searingskirso]

i like ilum a lot better than the moors, maybe its the classes in swtor are a bit more balanced, but i prefer good ilum to good moors. best part is lum has zero npc in the pvp zone, but it also has a quest area where you can pvp in if you chose. if they add npc to the war area it will sour the experience. i dont want npcs in my pvp.

[Nagithas]

After reading and skimming over this thread there are some things that I would like to point out from my own perspective and comment on some features that I personally enjoyed having access to and that worked well in the games I gave played. Before I begin, as far as my experience and knowledge go with playing LotRo, I started playing when MoM was released. I did not start regularly playing in the Moors until about a year into my playing of the game. When I did, my main was a Warg who is r9 on my home server of Windfola; a very low pop server. (I also have a few creep toons on Elendilmir but none of “notariety”.) I will also add that I pre-launched Rift and only mention it briefly here because I will tie in some thoughts to it later.

 

To start off, there are only a very few functionalities that made the Moors work on the fly when grouping was concerned. One, in-game chat. Two, target assists. Three, raid party paying attention to number one and number two.

 

In-game chat was a tremendous asset as far as target calling, mass movement, diversionary movement, scouting, etc. I understand that there aren’t many people nowadays without Ventrillo, Mumble, or Teamspeak, but when the action kicked off, or picked up for that matter, no one was interested in stopping what they were doing to spam info for their preferred chat client. (The exception was Elendilmir with their creep/freep server vent/teamspeak.) It was group up and go and pay attention to the Raid Leader. With that being said, and the fact that I absolutely HATE stopping to type, “<insert number here> Inc Left/West cap” while “x” amount of Imps are barreling down on my position, IMO the community in LotRo and SWTOR are apples and oranges. Some of the things I read in the /Ops chat I would cringe if it came through my speakers. (And look, as a quick aside, I served in the USMC and worked as a corrections officer so there isn’t much in the way of profanity that I haven’t heard but it’s just a parent thing I suppose.) But I am not so naïve in understanding that a lot of that comes from the level of frustration by the players of not being able to communicate clearly with the people we are randomly grouped with. Therefore, in-game chat is affective and valuable.

 

Target assist window…. (Seriously…. How do you not put this in?) When I ran raids I typically had three target assists (if numbers dictated). I called the primary target, I had a spotter for squishies secondaries, and a third spotter for my group of harassers. Everyone could see the name of the target and locate that target. And if for some reason you still had issues spotting the target, you could hit the “n” button and all names vanished except the player you were targeted on. Simple functionality but effective.

 

It is my assumption that without those two mechanisms that the ability for the members of the raid to follow the directives of the Raid Leader becomes haphazard and not very efficient in terms of eliminating enemy forces. I personally am not able to play in what is considered “Prime Time” hours and so when I do go out to Ilum, there are very few people there and so this creates a different style of play. But from experience, the said mechanisms listed above would still provide an efficient potency for smaller groups and I would like to see then in SWTOR.

 

To address PvE in a PvP zone; Necessity vs. Time Sink

 

Prior to LotRo’s F2P switch, the PvE in the Moors served one primary function: Destiny Points. Creeps (monster players) needed them to buy skills as they ranked (for those of you that do not know, when you rolled a creep you were automatically at level cap and the skills you had access to were dependant on your rank…. Reference LotRo class imbalance) and destiny perks (self bought buffs) whereas freeps (free peoples of Middle Earth) needed them for destiny perks and the quests also gave Marks of Valor which you turned in for a random reward from chests. You had no choice but to PvE in the Moors as a Greenie or Blue Dot because you flat didn’t have a chance against a freep with a full array of skills to your four… yes, four. When F2P launched, skills could be bought from the Turbine Store and not only where you still starting off at level cap, you were no longer a Greenie or Blue Dot; you started at Sig (red ring around your portrait and no longer having to grind DP for low rank passives). What also happened was that by completing certain quests players were rewarded with Infamy/Renown for completing them. Questing was no longer a necessity but rather another means to painfully inch yourself closer to the next rank. (There is also the necessity of opening the Delving of Fror for both sides and the farming of dulls, glims, lumies, and brilliant stones that I will not get into.) … I digress…

 

It was also thought that by doing this that fighting would be more diverse throughout the entire map rather than centralized as it typically was. (Reference, EC to STAB to EC to Upper Norbogs to East Ford to East Lawn to Front Lawn to WTAB to OC to WTAB; rinse and repeat.) This was simply false. Centralized fighting continued. In sum, unnecessary PvE questing in a PvP zone does not lend itself to diversified action when you are contained to one and only one map, especially one of above average land mass. This type of PvE in PvP should be avoided on Ilum.

 

To address PvE in a PvP zone; Give’m a reason

 

Necessary PvE in the Moors still held true in a small way. Aside from the Grams and GV home bases for the respective sides, holding Tirith Raw and Lugz offered a rez circle that would put participants “closer” to the fight…. Aka: The Center of the map. They also granted a certain amount of “catch me, come f**k me” when your side was substantially outnumbered and stepping foot outside the front door meant that you would soon be facing the rez circle gank squad. The unwritten rule was that you didn’t take more than one of the keeps because you’d, in essence, “kill the PvP with your PvE”. There were smaller versions of this, such as EC (Elf Camp) and OC (Orc camp) which acted as small bastions for the outnumbered…. At least when they put the walls around them. But admittedly there was a certain sense of finesse and accomplishment when you learned how to use the keeps and camps to your advantage, or to your opponent’s disadvantage, because there were NPCs to fight through and it was a pain in the *** and because you felt awesomesauce when you pulled it off! (Reference, “Jump out the North window” or “If you don’t know how to run the OC walls, you’re doing it wrong” and “move to the next floor, don’t go into the next room. Wargs, watch the stairs”.) The first time that I went out to Ilum with a guild member I have to admit that I was dumbfounded that all you had to do to capture a point was fire a few rockets at a giant robot… because, really, that’s what it was…. Or “slice” into a terminal at the other main base to disable the guns and “own” it. There really isn’t a sense of accomplishment in that. I want to feel like I am playing a Star Wars battle…. Not 2nd grade tag. I would like to see this improved upon.

 

Here now is where I will reference Rift and something they did in regards to PvP Dailies. I will also mention that if there are other MMOs that have done this, which I am sure there have been, I apologize for not knowing upfront. Rift offered PvP dailies by doing PvE quests in different parts of the world. (There was even a weekly quest for killing a certain number of Guardians/Defiants in that area) One week it would be Stillmoor, the next, Shimmersand, and after that, Iron Pine Peak, and you were rewarded with PvP Favor for completing the PvE quests. The zones and quests were the same for both sides and everyone knew where they had to go and that they could potentially be in for a fight. (There were also PvP Raid Rifts that players could open up, but that is a completely different mechanic) It is my opinion that this kind of purposeful quest location cycling at least gave players a break and different back drop to fight in rather than the usual WZ grind. I also witnessed and participated in some rather amazing and fun fights. I would also mention that both sides had to contend with third party NPCs in those areas. The application of this into SWTOR doesn't seem that far removed. For example, the open world PvP area on Tatooine. Right now there is absolutely no reason to go there other than to finish the quest to find the area. But put in place the concept from Rift and now you have a reason. You are automatically flagged for PvP within ten seconds of entering the area so there are no Carebears. Need a third party faction to hopefully prevent the Zerg? Simple. Sand People. Build the quests around them. Hutts and Mandalorians to name some other potential third party NPC factions.... Locations? Pick a world.... Give'm a reason to fight in the open world no matter whether it's a PvP or PvE server.

 

In sum; These are a few of my favorite things.

 

This wall-o-text is by no means an affirmation of preference toward one game over another. It is simply a few examples of mechanics and ideas that I would like seen brought to the SWTOR table from two games that I played and enjoyed.... and that, at times, caused me to needlessly bash my face against my keyboard in utter frustration as nothing is perfect.

TL;DR

You can't make law school decisions when you are in love.

If you drop your keys into a river of molten lava let them go; because man, they're gone.

I understand it but you have to explain it to me.

[Pantallika]

I was talking about pvp raids ...

 

Your so full of yourself online it truly shows that IRL you must be a complete douche with no friends, hobbies, or life outside this game. Sorry for you. As for this post, there is a reason that this valor 72 douche is the only person saying "Ilum is great", and that is because Ilum is not great. World pvp is garbage on this game. That is why I bet bioware lost around 30% of subscriptions. Warzones are very repetitive and boring if you pvped while lvling.

 

Bioware even recognized this that is why the next patch we are seeing a lot of things done in regards to pvp, too bad much like the path of Warhammer online, Rift, and many other fail mmos, their big launch, and player explosion, seems to have come and passed. I know when I log on I don't see anything but around half the numbers I did when I was playing a month ago.

 

I hope I am wrong, cause I did enjoy lvling to 50, then pvping for a week or so, but come on bioware you had to have seen this stagnant state during beta testing all those years.

[Adarcer]

I only read thro half of these posts but i think some people need to be told what Original poster IMO meant since allot of people seem entirely confused. all OP's points are ENVIRONMENT enhancements.

 

1) Control points = have a few npc guards so its harder to flip, so it takes more than one stealth class to flip it. guards need to attack opposing faction.

 

2) Objectives "boxes/crates" scattered over landscape not all in on area. Ettenmoors also had resource nodes scattered around to.

 

3) The Ettenmoors also had places to hide. trees to break LOS, hills and trees to use to move without being spotted for flanking manuvers / ambushes, open plains to fight on etc.

 

4) On my old computer playing lotro i did not start to lag intil 2 raids vs 2 raids 48v48 (but of course only one side had equipment to load other side had skins) in same area but this game is not optimized yet and very processor heavy so pvp turns out to be a slideshow for some people. this IMO is what really needs to be worked on first.

 

5) And this is the BIG ONE = There is NO Mention of Having lotro pvp mechanics.

[Leekae]

Trolls did exist, they were introduced in book 10 and at the time you could roll up to 3 trolls and 3 rangers at a time, book 11 was the purple freeple eater etc etc etc.

 

Regardless of the flaws the moors has it is still superior to Ilum in all aspects.

 

Jaiyne, tell Lee I say hello please.

 

Whats up Eclipso? She told me. It's good to hear from you old friend.

 

As for the Moors vs Ilum debate, is there really one to begin with? Some things should be so clear as to not have the ability to spark a debate, and this is one of those instances.

 

MOORS>ILUM all day every day!

 

First and foremost, the control points in Ilum make zero sense to me. Why are we allowed to stand there and bazooka them to hell and back with zero resistance?

 

Exactly why do we need a notification system telling everyone in the zone where everyone else is? What purpose does it serve other than to lag the zone even further?

 

Why is there no voice in this game? People are talking as if there's some strategy involved in Ilum? Forgive me but I find it highly unlikely that a whole lot of strategy is being used out there without voice comms. Those groups using it are at a decided advantage. This is 2012 and there is ZERO excuse not to have voice in a game that cost this much to make.

 

Meh, I could go on forever with this really. The game is very young and I have patience, but there is much more that needs to be done in Ilum to make it as fun to be in as the Moors.

[Jaygrave]

As a level 44 I capped northern and the imperials base alone during high activity of about 30v30 going on... nuff said

[denpic]

I think faction imbalance is what's killing ilum

20 vs 1 is not fun for both parties

 

I'm on a low pop server and like last

Night was the only rep present for a least 1hr+

 

They need to either make que for it So there are even numbers present before a battle will start or Add a buff that boosts the stats of the faction with the least amount of players

[AndiusTheGreat]

I think faction imbalance is what's killing ilum

20 vs 1 is not fun for both parties

 

I'm on a low pop server and like last

Night was the only rep present for a least 1hr+

 

They need to either make que for it So there are even numbers present before a battle will start or Add a buff that boosts the stats of the faction with the least amount of players

 

Adding PVE content to a zone really helps with this a lot. When I log on to the Ettenmoors, and my faction controls the map, I go out and quest. When I log on to the Ettenmoors and the other faction controls the map... I go out and quest, or harass the enemy as they quest. I also have had a lot of fun solo harassing enemies as they try to take keeps. In one case I prevented an entire team from taking a keep because of cleverly timed hit and run tactics on my warg. Their entire team wiped because I kept silencing their healer.

 

When I log onto the Ettenmoors, and we have a raid going, and they have a raid going, I ask for an invite and have some fun.

 

When I log onto Illum and either side controls the map/has an overwhelming zerg... I leave. Thus why I almost am never in Illum.

[Vincedaddy]

Another thing ... Your on my server and your name is Tharak ?? Who are you ? I pvp more than anyone on this server and I have no idea who you are .... How are you in a position to tell people to make a change, When you have never even tried it?

 

This is why I can't wait until we see rated content so baddies with endless amounts of time who think they are good from "grinding" uncoordinated under geared players will truly look as bad as they play. Keep flexin the Epeen bro in march you will probably not make it out of the bottom brackets.

 

OP I like your thread tried the moors but never invested enough time after cap, but illum is crap and I hope they fix it since pileup zergfests aren't very fun.

[Xsorus]

Worry bout fixing Illum after you fix the god awful lag there when fighting more then 4v4

[Trujan]

Worg pack here, i used to love collecting hobbit feet down the bottem of the Moors, and dodging those freeps when they heard the kill in chat! Such fun!

Oh and what about the dungeon that you could enter with the bosses, that switched alligence depending on who held the keeps.

The Op has some great points. Although the Moors was an addon, by god they had good ideas, with the quests, keeps and dungeons, really clever

[cfrun]

I was the first rank 12 and 13 in lotro... but this game still seems more enjoyable. Also lotro freeps were usually way outnumbered, but granted creeps as a whole were worse pound for pound.

Brodster!!!! This is Khallan (nerfherder/chaise)! What server you on???

 

Brodster and I played our fair share of lotro PvP since conception. I creeped and freeped a ton. I did enjoy a lot of things about its open PvP. To me, the biggest draw back was the balance of numbers. Overall though, i had many epic fights when there were 1 or 2 raids battling it out on a map trying to out maneuver the others by taking keeps. I did like how raids, small groups, and solo play was all viable and had a purpose. It really is truly amazing how much fun i had in there despite Turbine almost putting 0 effort into the moors.

[cfrun]

I do think the moors PvP was a lot more fun than Illum at this point, but like many have said they didnt have anything like warzones.

[Macsimus]

I do think the moors PvP was a lot more fun than Illum at this point, but like many have said they didnt have anything like warzones.

 

I think the moors was pretty crappy. This coming from a freep and a creep, but I will admit that it's better than Illum. It pains me to say that because I really think nothing good of the OWPVP in Lotro, but Illum is really that bad that Lotro actually did it better. The only thing sadder would be a dead puppy. For shame BW.

[Whosthetank]

Then you have never been in a Raid lead by me , COBRA. I Raid Ilum everyday. What does that tell me?? You have no idea what you are talking about b/c you have never even given it a try.

 

 

 

Just wondering what is your valor rank?

 

ROFL

what is your valor rank?

 

You sir ..... you are the most elitist douche i have seen on the forums yet

[Ghrex]

I played LOTRO for 2 years.( I lived in the moors.) I am valor rank 72. I now live in Ilum. This game is awesome. Do not change anything ! Just keep adding to it BioWare.

 

 

 

Signed,

Someone who has played more than you.

 

I would bet big that this guy has done one of the following and is true.

 

1. Abused the turret bug.

 

2. Spawn camped the starting area.

 

3. Kill traded.

 

4. Obviouly has no idea that his server has a majority of Republic players, since it usually takes hours on most servers to get a raid big enough to kill the randoms.

 

5. Abuses the door exploit in Voidstar or the leap/ball/multiple scoring bug in huttball or the 12 person WZ bug.

[AndiusTheGreat]

I would bet big that this guy has done one of the following and is true.

 

1. Abused the turret bug.

 

2. Spawn camped the starting area.

 

3. Kill traded.

 

4. Obviouly has no idea that his server has a majority of Republic players, since it usually takes hours on most servers to get a raid big enough to kill the randoms.

 

5. Abuses the door exploit in Voidstar or the leap/ball/multiple scoring bug in huttball or the 12 person WZ bug.

 

I won't deny Cobra actually is good. He is a big name on my server in Illum, and he was in a huttball match that me and a few my guild-mates were in that closed due to our side not having enough people... as we were stomping the other side. Of course some of those guild mates are also big name PVPers on our server.

 

Where I will disagree with him is that investing massive amounts of time into specific content gives you a right to speak on them where others who have invested less time have no right to talk. Illum is a valor farm and I hate it. Of course my valor rank isn't near as high as someone who really enjoys said content.

 

If the only people who have the right to talk about things are the people who put huge amounts of time into them, then I bet post NGE-SWG was even better than pre-NGE, and Archlord is a great game!

 

There is a reason every time I show up in Illum I can't wait to finish my daily so I can leave. And it isn't because it is such thrilling content. It is because I am so bored the only thing keeping me sane is talking to my guildmates on mumbe.

 

I do think the moors PvP was a lot more fun than Illum at this point, but like many have said they didnt have anything like warzones.

 

Having good content in other areas is no reason to not improve horrible content like Illum. I think this game as a whole is great, don't get me wrong. This isn't a comparison of TOR vs. LOTRO, or a comparison of TOR PVP vs. LOTRO PVP. Its purely a comparison of Illum vs. Ettenmoors.

 

I think public opinion is very heavily on my side that the Ettenmoors is better than Illum here, especially when you take out factors we aren't even discussing like class balance.

 

The point is I think in addressing where they went wrong, Bioware needs to look to the parts people enjoyed about the Ettenmoors and copy some of them. If they copy some of the upsides and leave out the downsides I think they can easily turn Illum into something that blows both Illums current form, and the Ettenmoors out of the water.

 

I've suggested what I think the two most critical factors that make Ettenmoors more enjoyable are.

Edited February 13, 2012 by AndiusTheGreat

[AndiusTheGreat]

Summary of Yesterday's Events:

 

Well yesterday I spent around two hours leading our forces in Illum. We were highly outnumbered, and attempting to take the center prooved to be suicidal, so we went and gained complete map control of everywhere but center. Other than a couple lone imperials this did not draw their forces out of the center.

 

Several people mentioned going and doing something else as a raid as we tried to pick up more numbers. They specifically asked if there was any PVE content we could do, to which the answer was obviously no. There was some discussion of doing EV at that point, but in general the raid just started losing members. I lead them around a bit more re-capping bases the solo imperials took before we regained members, and the imperial forces had finally bled out a bit from boredom I think. We then made 3 pushes in which were still outnumbered, and still lost, but at least traded a decent amount of kills. After the 3rd push the raid collapsed and went down to 5 to 6 members.

 

We went in a couple times, picked off lone armament hunters, then immediately retreated. After that they started catching on and moving as a group.

 

At this point we started making suicidal pushes at them. Their forces had apparently depleted as well at this point, and let me put in there that the group which included Faate, Rhilia, Omega-X, and some other brave souls who's names I can't recall were straight up pro. Though they still heavily outnumbered us we were somehow managing to get in more kills than we had members of our group before we went down. We did this a few times until people finished their weeklies/dailies and then the ops fell apart.

 

My Point

 

1. Obviously people asking if we could do things as a group. Directly relates to this topic. Had we been completely unable to take ANY keep in the moors I still could have said. "Yeah, lets go hit goldy." Or "Sure lets go kills some drakes." or "lets farm trees." or even "Lets go poison/cleanse the Hoardale." While this obviously isn't what we would want to do all night, it would give us something to do, to keep us occupied as we waited on more members.

 

2. People NEVER sit there at TA and watch all the other keeps fall like they sit there at center on Illum. The fact we were forced to hit center, or not have anyone to fight is ridiculous. Good open world PVP encourages map control not holding one point while the entire map falls as the stronger faction. A losing faction might hold out at a single point so as to sell their lives dearly, but the stronger faction never would. If Illum worked like the Moors I could have sent a scoundrel/shadow to keep tabs on their main forces while the rest of our group ninjaed a keep. And they would have actually given a damn. We would likely play a game of cat and mouse for awhile that would have ended in us holding at a more poorly guarded point we could take quickly (Like Isendeep or LC) and they would assault us there, or we would have ended up hiding out in something akin to elf camp if they had complete map control while they surrounded it and we traded fire.

 

Anyway I think my point is clear. Even in real warfare the smaller force when put up against the larger force would try to cut off supplies to the larger force and generally harass them, or take up a defensive position and wait for the larger force to come to them. Not continually throw themselves against the place where the larger force has dug in. Its ridiculous, and its a horrible model for open world PVP.

 

TL : DR I had fun last night, but not as much as I could have. These ideas would still greatly improve Illum.

Edited February 14, 2012 by AndiusTheGreat