Real reason why Project is inferior to Shock

[inseeisyou]

so its also good for your target's healers to see when exacly a huge burst will be coming his way? and when 2 rocks instead of 1 will be coming? so the target's healer can judge and be repared to blow shield/or big cd heal/or cc? you realize if a sith sorcerer proc 2 lighting on a target, that target's healer probably don't even realize he just got hit by 2 lightning instead of 1? and by the time he realize the damage is already been done and too late? being able to predict your enemy's random damage proc is much more advantageous to a healer in group pvp tbqh...

 

and lets not even mention the fact that in group pvp immune/vanishing rocks from multiple sage casters at same time happens all the time because when the enemy target gets low sages around that target tends to cast project alot cuz its instacast and max dps...when you play chess, do you let your opponent know 1 setep ahead of time where you are going to go? and then assume he has no other options but act the same way?

 

TLDR version: people need to stop using the But but but in GROUP pvp excuse to sound all ritious...st*u its the exact same but worse cuz it happens on a grander scale. and 1v1 still happens even in group pvp

 

Agree on almost every point. Hope this gets fixed sooner than later. I canceled my sub yesterday (although I do have 61 days playtime remaining) and I listed this Project/Shock disparity as my primary reason (also indicative of general Empire favoritism).

 

Funny thing was after asking you your reason for canceling, they give you a custom tailored message to try and persuade you to stay. The one for "imbalance" was something along time lines of "Different ACs have different abilities but are balanced etc..."

 

This is "SUPPOSEDLY" the SAME AC that we are suffering imbalance from!!!

[Dyvim]

Like I said on another thread, giving the imp project would be the ideal solution.

JK for instance share a lot of skills with their imperial counterpart, and their is no wrongness on that.

The issue with delaying shock is that their spells look already all the same, and a charged shock would really confuse with their lightning which is actually charged.

Speaking of which, "charging" animations usually imply the spell to be casting, while it is not.

 

Yes, because more magic rocks, and more broken skills is exactly what this game needs...

 

*rollseyes*

[Vales]

Awww still whining about Project and TK Throw? Poor you.

[MasterOWo]

I hope that whatever Bioware does, they should NOT make project instant. I don't think a lot of people would like it when their consular is getting ready to throw a rock, but it only hits an already dead body.....:(

 

I also wanted to say that the charge idea for the sorcerer is great, but for. 1.5 secs?

We could make project's delay shorter (and then make the charge for sorc shorter too if they do that) by changing the animation to something like this.......

 

Ok, so the rock would come from behind the consular and instead of the left hand going up then in front, the arm would just be in the ball-throwing motion. That way the sec where the rock is floating in the air is eliminated.

Edited February 18, 2012 by MasterOWo

[Nempo]

so the coolest Jedi force animation you want to change because people are using tactics and sometimes outplay you.

 

 

I vote no, for the love of God don't change the animation bioware!

 

OK, fine, then Shock must now have the same duration wait. Shock will now gather a ball of lightning over the Sorc's head then throw lightning at the target ala project style, giving Rep players all the time in the world to cast their own defensives.

[inseeisyou]

so the coolest Jedi force animation you want to change because people are using tactics and sometimes outplay you.

 

 

I vote no, for the love of God don't change the animation bioware!

 

I don't have any problem with the fact that the ability can be dodged due to the animation delay.

 

The problem is that Imperial ability "Shock" is not avoidable in this way.

 

It isn't "outplaying" when they can dodge my ability but I can not dodge theirs as a "mirror" class in the same way because they get an instant animation and it is just practically IMPOSSIBLE.

 

The troll is strong with this one...

[HyperThomas]

I like the animation, and I do not want to see it go... it really helps the burst/global co-ordination for me.

Just saying...

[Flapjak]

You vote no cause it's animation is cool. I see. I'm sure your opinion will be taken serious. *Sigh*

 

It's a game with pve and pvp. If you are playing it only for the animations and graphics i suggest you to watch a starwars movie instead.

 

Seconded, so what if the animation is slightly slower, and I have yet to see someone pull off what you spoke about in a WZ. Im a shadow tank wich uses project and its balance proc extremely often to maintain threat, DO NOT take that away from me bioware, its the best part of this spec!

[RobNightfall]

so the coolest Jedi force animation you want to change because people are using tactics and sometimes outplay you.

 

 

I vote no, for the love of God don't change the animation bioware!

 

Project is, by far, the worst animation we have. It looks awful in general, on space stations when you're throwing boulders it looks even worse, and it f**ks up PvP burst.

[Laoi]

so the coolest Jedi force animation you want to change because people are using tactics and sometimes outplay you.

 

 

I vote no, for the love of God don't change the animation bioware!

 

who cares about if it looks cool O_o effectiveness is the one and only thing that ever mattered/matters/will ever matter. "cool animations" is for roleplayers.

its a fact that it puts u at a serious disadvantage compared to shock. as a sage even more than as a shadow.

[Esproc]

Have any of you played both classes?

 

I have, and yes Project takes it"s "animation" time, which I believe is on purpose.

I'll already have run up to the mob and be attacking when the rock finally hits. Annoying, yes, but I think they planned the timing. It also stuns, normal and lesser beings, not viable boss/pvp.

 

You all talk about Shock like it's the same attributed mirror to the classes, it's not.

Shock does instant damage like TKT (which slows a target, normal/lesser), but does stun normal and lower beings, not viable in pvp.

 

Sorcerer Lightning Strike has a 1.5 second cast time before it is released.

 

There is the mirroring of your classes, it is slightly changed, more blurred, than exact.

Maybe there is no "cool animation" associated with the ability to "warn" you it's happening, but the delay is there.

 

Shock/Telekinetic Throw = instant.

Shock can stun normal/lesser, not vialble Boss/pvp

TKT can slow normal/lesser, not vialble Boss/pvp

 

Project/Lightning Strike = delay/cast time.

Project can stun normal/lesser, not viable Boss/pvp

Lightning Strike no stun, no slow, no ...

 

Project "cast" is instant and then a "cool animation".

Lightning Strike "channeled" cast and no "cool" animations.

 

So who should be crying now?

 

Happy Hunting.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Esproc

[inseeisyou]

Have any of you played both classes?

 

I have, and yes Project takes it"s "animation" time, which I believe is on purpose.

I'll already have run up to the mob and be attacking when the rock finally hits. Annoying, yes, but I think they planned the timing. It also stuns, normal and lesser beings, not viable boss/pvp.

 

You all talk about Shock like it's the same attributed mirror to the classes, it's not.

Shock does instant damage like TKT (which slows a target, normal/lesser), but does stun normal and lower beings, not viable in pvp.

 

Sorcerer Lightning Strike has a 1.5 second cast time before it is released.

 

There is the mirroring of your classes, it is slightly changed, more blurred, than exact.

Maybe there is no "cool animation" associated with the ability to "warn" you it's happening, but the delay is there.

 

Shock/Telekinetic Throw = instant.

Shock can stun normal/lesser, not vialble Boss/pvp

TKT can slow normal/lesser, not vialble Boss/pvp

 

Project/Lightning Strike = delay/cast time.

Project can stun normal/lesser, not viable Boss/pvp

Lightning Strike no stun, no slow, no ...

 

Project "cast" is instant and then a "cool animation".

Lightning Strike "channeled" cast and no "cool" animations.

 

So who should be crying now?

 

Happy Hunting.

 

This is just so wrong and confusing I don't even know where to start. I think the real take home point is you don't even understand what abilities are mirrors of each other. If anything this proves what a great disparity the abilities have due to their animations.

 

Lightning strike is an AC Sorcerer ability. We are discussing the LEVEL 1 BASE CLASS "mirrored" abilities Shock and Project. The animation delay is so screwed up you don't even seem to understand what abilities are mirrors of each other... PROOF something is wrong.

 

The "mirror" of Lightning Strike that Sorcerers have is Disturbance for Sages... You don't even mention that... Project/Shock are so imblanaced as mirrors you try to pick some random AC skill to compare Project to... lulz

[Laoi]

Have any of you played both classes?

 

I have, and yes Project takes it"s "animation" time, which I believe is on purpose.

I'll already have run up to the mob and be attacking when the rock finally hits. Annoying, yes, but I think they planned the timing. It also stuns, normal and lesser beings, not viable boss/pvp.

 

You all talk about Shock like it's the same attributed mirror to the classes, it's not.

Shock does instant damage like TKT (which slows a target, normal/lesser), but does stun normal and lower beings, not viable in pvp.

 

Sorcerer Lightning Strike has a 1.5 second cast time before it is released.

 

There is the mirroring of your classes, it is slightly changed, more blurred, than exact.

Maybe there is no "cool animation" associated with the ability to "warn" you it's happening, but the delay is there.

 

Shock/Telekinetic Throw = instant.

Shock can stun normal/lesser, not vialble Boss/pvp

TKT can slow normal/lesser, not vialble Boss/pvp

 

Project/Lightning Strike = delay/cast time.

Project can stun normal/lesser, not viable Boss/pvp

Lightning Strike no stun, no slow, no ...

 

Project "cast" is instant and then a "cool animation".

Lightning Strike "channeled" cast and no "cool" animations.

 

So who should be crying now?

 

Happy Hunting.

 

i have both classes at 50 yes. and shock is clearly superior. i guess it doesnt matter when ur fighting bads since till they realize the rocks coming up from the ground it takes atleast 5 mins till their braincell comprehend that and then another half an hour till they realize what the hell they are supposed to do and by that time they are already looking at the "return to medcenter box" but if ur playing vs good ppl project has a serious disadvantage compared to shock. so yea remove that silly animation and make it deal instant dmg.

[Dyvim]

Have any of you played both classes?

 

I have, and yes Project takes it"s "animation" time, which I believe is on purpose.

I'll already have run up to the mob and be attacking when the rock finally hits. Annoying, yes, but I think they planned the timing. It also stuns, normal and lesser beings, not viable boss/pvp.

 

You all talk about Shock like it's the same attributed mirror to the classes, it's not.

Shock does instant damage like TKT (which slows a target, normal/lesser), but does stun normal and lower beings, not viable in pvp.

 

Sorcerer Lightning Strike has a 1.5 second cast time before it is released.

 

There is the mirroring of your classes, it is slightly changed, more blurred, than exact.

Maybe there is no "cool animation" associated with the ability to "warn" you it's happening, but the delay is there.

 

Shock/Telekinetic Throw = instant.

Shock can stun normal/lesser, not vialble Boss/pvp

TKT can slow normal/lesser, not vialble Boss/pvp

 

Project/Lightning Strike = delay/cast time.

Project can stun normal/lesser, not viable Boss/pvp

Lightning Strike no stun, no slow, no ...

 

Project "cast" is instant and then a "cool animation".

Lightning Strike "channeled" cast and no "cool" animations.

 

So who should be crying now?

 

Happy Hunting.

 

The clueless person who cant figure out which abilities are mirrors of each other and wrote such a completely wrong post, THAT is who should be crying now...

 

It is hilarious that you started with "have you played both classes", like you would be some kind of authority.

 

To clue you in...

 

Shock = Project - Both are instant cast, only Project has a damage delay due to its craptastic magic rock animation. This project damage delay is the problem, from a mechanics point of view, but it has others. I guarantee you the inquisitor forums arent littered with posts asking for shock to have a delay...that is just PURE stupidity.

 

TK Throw = Lightning - both are channeled, both slow targets

 

Disturbance = Lightning Strike - BOTH have 1.5 sec activation timers. If you want to throw junk, the current project animation must have an activation timer to stop being a joke. It takes TIME to magically pul up the magic junk, it takes time to spin it, and it takes time to throw it at its target. TIME.

 

The project animation is pure crap. First off, it turns jedi into junk (debris) throwers. Jedi do rarely throw junk, but SITH throw junk 18x more in the movies, and probably in the rest of the lore, although that is a guess, whereas the movie count is dead on accurate. Also, junk throwing has been classified as a darkside trait, starting in the VERY FIRST lucasarts jedi game, going back 15 years. In fact, if it was even included, throwing junk has NEVER been classififed as even neutral, much less lightsided, in the jedi series of games, or in kotor 1 & 2, or in SWG, etc. So the jedi caster class is based on junk throwing, that is the first problem.

 

The second problem is the nature of the junk throwing animation. It requires A HUGE suspension of disbelief and willingness to accept pure goofiness ad nauseam, since it is environmentally ignorant, and expects players to believe that there are magic rocks and droid scraps buried at your feet, everywhere...even when you are in space on a ship. Its is completely ridiculous. Its the bad joke that wont go away. Even if you dont play a consular type, you still have to see the junk throwing nonstop from other players. Even if you are a Sith, in warzones and Ilum, the magic rocks and the constant junk throwing is there.

 

Then of course the third problem is the mechanics of the animation which result in a delay in damage. THE ONLY fix for this animation is to replace it OR put it with a skill that has an activation timer. Screwing with Shock is idiotic. You dont break what is working, as advertised. Having the damage tick before the magic rock hits is also idiotic, and ruins the nature of the cinematic combat, as you could stealth and never have the magic rock hit you, but you would still take damage? It SHOULDNT hit you if the jedi cant see you to guide it to you...thats the problem with throwing a rock that is travelling slower than a baseball in a galaxy where other classes have missiles, blasters, lightning, etc. Having a rock is WORSE than bringing a knife to a gunfight.

 

The best solutions to this issue are replacing the animation completely or switching it out. Replace it with a saber throw, which would look especially awesome for dbl blades, OR switch it with the disturbance animation, which can easily have its wind up made into an instant cast motion. Saber throw is instant, and has been classified as a neutral power forever. Or if you switch it, magic rock throwing would still be in the game for its rabid, nonsensical fans, it would have the activation timer the animation clearly needs, AND the jedi caster class would no longer be identified or based on throwing junk and magic rocks.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Dyvim

[KennethHoover]

As others have noted I also use stun and then project. I have no problem taking down Sith scum with it.

 

Short version: learn to play your character. Yeah. Sometime it really is that simple.

[Esproc]

The clueless person who cant figure out which abilities are mirrors of each other and wrote such a completely wrong post, THAT is who should be crying now...

 

It is hilarious that you started with "have you played both classes", like you would be some kind of authority.

 

To clue you in...

 

Shock = Project - Both are instant cast, only Project has a damage delay due to its craptastic magic rock animation. This project damage delay is the problem, from a mechanics point of view, but it has others. I guarantee you the inquisitor forums arent littered with posts asking for shock to have a delay...that is just PURE stupidity.

 

TK Throw = Lightning - both are channeled, both slow targets

 

Disturbance = Lightning Strike - BOTH have 1.5 sec activation timers. If you want to throw junk, the current project animation must have an activation timer to stop being a joke. It takes TIME to magically pul up the magic junk, it takes time to spin it, and it takes time to throw it at its target. TIME.

 

Lightning Strike is a 1.5 second cast time during which there is NO Lightning or affect (nor effect) until at the End of the cast time, then it shoots out and Zaps in one burst hit, period, it does Not slow targets.

 

I tried to show that the mirrors are not copied and pasted, or both would throw elements of earth or lightning the exact same way.

 

Foot in mouth, go hide your face in your hands.

 

Doh!

Edited February 19, 2012 by Esproc

[Dyvim]

Lightning Strike is a 1.5 second cast time during which there is NO Lightning or affect (nor effect) until at the End of the cast time, then it shoots out and Zaps in one burst hit, period, it does Not slow targets.

 

I tried to show that the mirrors are not copied and pasted, or both would throw elements of earth or lightning the exact same way.

 

Foot in mouth, go hide your face in your hands.

 

Doh!

 

Can you read?

 

I posted lightning strike is a 1.5 sec ACTIVATION time, and it is the mirror of DISTURBANCE. Again, just like I posted.

[Sezyrrith]

Lightning Strike is a 1.5 second cast time during which there is NO Lightning or affect (nor effect) until at the End of the cast time, then it shoots out and Zaps in one burst hit, period, it does Not slow targets.

 

I tried to show that the mirrors are not copied and pasted, or both would throw elements of earth or lightning the exact same way.

 

Foot in mouth, go hide your face in your hands.

 

Doh!

 

Where did he say LS had an effect attached to it, or slow targets?

If you're referring to the second yellow-colored point, that's Force Lightning. Telekinetic Throw for Consulars and Force Lightning for Inquisitors are the same, effectively; both abilities are channeled and slow the enemy, doing damage

 

Right below that, Lightning Strike is matched up with Disturbance, both having 1.5s activation timers.

 

The top point compares Shock and Project, which are indeed both instant cast. You can cast them on the run (which is why Shock is not comparable to either Lightning ability) but the issue comes with Project having a delay on the damage done - a delay that allows avoidance of the damage, and more importantly, the bonus damage from the talent that adds a second rock to the animation.

 

Here, if it makes you understand a little better, have a link to the SW:toR wiki class pages, which detail the abilities by class. Look at the levels the abilities are gained, how long they take to cast, and the effect. Aside from the 'flavor text' of it, the abilities are directly comparable in the fashion Dyvim listed them. There are some differences, of course - mostly things such as cost, range, or added effects (the latter of which is meaningless in PvP, as it doesn't affect players).

Inquisitor: http://www.wikiswtor.com/Sith_Inquisitor

Consular: http://www.wikiswtor.com/Jedi_Consular

[inseeisyou]

The top point compares Shock and Project, which are indeed both instant cast. You can cast them on the run (which is why Shock is not comparable to either Lightning ability) but the issue comes with Project having a delay on the damage done - a delay that allows avoidance of the damage, and more importantly, the bonus damage from the talent that adds a second rock to the animation.

 

Agree on all your points. Be wary of trolls on threads like these. When users incorrectly compare "mirror" skills it either confirms they have no idea what they are talking about or are trolling you. Just like anyone suggesting you should need to "Force Stun" someone before using Project to ensure a hit...

 

It is such a blatant and obvious issue Imperials enjoy coming along and pretending they like it to try and preserve their unfair advantage.

[Dyvim]

Agree on all your points. Be wary of trolls on threads like these. When users incorrectly compare "mirror" skills it either confirms they have no idea what they are talking about or are trolling you. Just like anyone suggesting you should need to "Force Stun" someone before using Project to ensure a hit...

 

It is such a blatant and obvious issue Imperials enjoy coming along and pretending they like it to try and preserve their unfair advantage.

 

Exactly correct....I imagine most of the players posting silliness that want to keep chunk a clunker the way it is are imps, trolls, or just clueless.

 

A few shadows want to keep it broken for what they think is a reason, but they dont realize that the delay gets worse the further the magic rock has to travel...so for 10+m ranges, like sages have, its a bigger and bigger problem. And they are just wrong to think burst depends on a broken skill. Instant is always better. You just have to rethink the rotation...if it was a real advantage, sins would be crying for it. They dont.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Dyvim

[sneroplex]

I don't stun first before using Project, and guess what? It still does damage! Woooo fancy that...

 

Seriously learn to play, this is such a minor difference in the overall scheme of playing Sage/Sorc that it doesn't matter. My republic main is a Sage and I regularly use project among all our other abilities and I regularly destroy Sorc's, making Project do instant damage is not going to turn all you bad's into good players with one click of a button.

Edited February 20, 2012 by sneroplex

[MasterOWo]

I don't stun first before using Project, and guess what? It still does damage! Woooo fancy that...

 

Seriously learn to play, this is such a minor difference in the overall scheme of playing Sage/Sorc that it doesn't matter. My republic main is a Sage and I regularly use project among all our other abilities and I regularly destroy Sorc's, making Project do instant damage is not going to turn all you bad's into good players with one click of a button.

 

I agree. I never really ever had any problems, and I never saw this floaty-rock thing.

[MirrimFaranth]

I don't stun first before using Project, and guess what? It still does damage! Woooo fancy that...

 

Seriously learn to play, this is such a minor difference in the overall scheme of playing Sage/Sorc that it doesn't matter. My republic main is a Sage and I regularly use project among all our other abilities and I regularly destroy Sorc's, making Project do instant damage is not going to turn all you bad's into good players with one click of a button.

 

Well that would be silly since stun is at best on a 50 sec timer and project is 6 secs. Seriously, l2p, there shouldnt be any difference at all. An instant skill on a 6 second timer is infinitely more useful than one with a bugged delay. If it was so great, the sith would want it. They don't.

Edited February 21, 2012 by MirrimFaranth

[Vales]

Well that would be silly since stun is at best on a 50 sec timer and project is 6 secs. Seriously, l2p, there shouldnt be any difference at all. An instant skill on a 6 second timer is infinitely more useful than one with a bugged delay. If it was so great, the sith would want it. They don't.

 

Ok I have had enough with these silly exaggerations.

First it is not infinetly more useful that is just a gross hyperbole blown out of proportion.

 

Second any good Sage will still beat a bad Sorc or any other class period regardless of of the delay.

 

Third equal skill and equal gear the win chance will still be around 50% in a 1v1 Sorc/Sage matchup.

The silly notion that Sorc should always beat a Sage 1v1 because of the delay is pure and utter nonsense build upon the asumption that it will always come down to who will kil the other with Shock or Project at the last 1% health which is simply idiotic.

 

Fourth other classes willing to blow a CD 10 times or more as long to avoid Project have done your team a favour. Because now the Assasin/Ops are sitting ducks for the next minutes and it is very likely that Project is up again before they

Furthermore with DoTs on them their Vanish abilities will not last long.

So all in all at worst you have a small disadvantage in 1v1 situations. Bohoo.

 

Really folks grow up and get a grip. Yes there is a delay and yes it is a small disadvantage but in manners of group combat one which is so small it does barely matter at all and there are tons more important issues the game has right now than optimizing animations.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Vales

[Achraya]

My favorite think to do on my Op? Cloak double project that may have killed me (Super obvious animation is...oh so obvious), and then reopen on that sage, knocking them flat on their face and dancing on their back for the kill. To everyone that loves how project works I just want to say...Thanks for keeping the waters muddy. We stealthies appreciate it. Watching those rocks twist and turn in the air feeds my soul.

 

Or, barring that, please use your 1 minute stun cooldown to hit me with project. Fingers crossed it ends being a double proc and thus not a worthless stun. Fingers crossed you don't need to stop me from pillar humping in the next 50 seconds, or stopping my heal after I juke/waste your interrupt on Diagnostic Scan. Bet you wish you hadn't used that stun so you could hit me for 3.5k at the start of the fight.

 

 

 

I will never understand people who argue in favor of being less effective, but I love them when they're on the other side of the match.