New shadow - overwhelmed w choices

[revolationz]

Hey all !!

 

I read this forum daily, and as my shadow is getting up there in levels (21 lol) I'm a bit confused on what spec to go with. Everytime I read a thread(especially the shadow handbook sticky which is great) I think I'm certain on a path... But then I read another thread.. And another..etc.. that makes me hesitant and uncertain on what the best spec is for me.

 

I just wanna be as efficient as possible lvling, and still contribute to both pvp and heroic party quests.

 

Currently I'm climbing up the infil tree and I'm just curious if I should stay that way all the way to 50 or do I need to switch to a diffrent tree as I level? I do remember reading I should switch to tank spec once I get a new companion.

 

I solo alot, love to pvp, and I know I'll need to be usefull in pve group situations.

 

I guess what I'm asking for is a bit of direction.

Thanks for any advice !!!!!

[Jatne]

Don't listen to anything you read on the forums, including this post. Think for yourself and understand that the forums overall are populated by people who are either a) bad, b) complaining or c) looking for a free handout.

 

All specs are viable to level, the tank tree tanks and therefore does lower damage. The damage tree does damage, but, therefore takes more damage and does not tank quite as well.

 

The DoT spec is for people who ride the short bus.

 

Ask yourself: Do I want to run a healer companion and DPS for quick fights OR do I want to run a DPS companion and tank for slower but more predictable ones?

 

Once you know the answer to this, you know what spec you want to play.

[grandmasterub]

If you like infil stick with it. There are tons of people who level, pvp, and group all as infil. If you find you don't like it try something else.

 

If you like being a damage dealer stick to infil or balance. If you want to tank try kinetic.

 

Note some who arent into tanking still like kinetic for pvp.

[menacegb]

Hey all !!

 

I read this forum daily, and as my shadow is getting up there in levels (21 lol) I'm a bit confused on what spec to go with. Everytime I read a thread(especially the shadow handbook sticky which is great) I think I'm certain on a path... But then I read another thread.. And another..etc.. that makes me hesitant and uncertain on what the best spec is for me.

 

I just wanna be as efficient as possible lvling, and still contribute to both pvp and heroic party quests.

 

Currently I'm climbing up the infil tree and I'm just curious if I should stay that way all the way to 50 or do I need to switch to a diffrent tree as I level? I do remember reading I should switch to tank spec once I get a new companion.

 

I solo alot, love to pvp, and I know I'll need to be usefull in pve group situations.

 

I guess what I'm asking for is a bit of direction.

Thanks for any advice !!!!!

 

I was the same and I am similar level as well at 20 but IMO you should just pick what ever you think you want and just run with it. Then read all the info you can on how to best use your chosen spec. You can always re-spec later on if it really isn't for you.

 

Just to note I went Infiltration with my shadow.

[Kai-Eurah-Tird]

Spec Kinetic COmbat and run with Tharan, guaranteed to be able to solo most content 1-49. Also a very hard to kill combo if you happens to get ambush by imperials.

[Varcan]

Simplified lvling guide post lvl21:

 

Want to DPS - Go Kinetic Combat

Want to Tank - Go Kinetic Combat

Want to PvP - Go Kinetic Combat

Want to etc... - Go Kinetic Combat

 

 

See the trend?

 

I'm going to assume you do...

 

Okay, to add some real comments. Balance tree is great DPS for FPs, but sucks for lvling speed. KC is good for FPs and great for lvling. Infilitration is sub-par for everything until lvl 41, at which point its still sub-par to Balance for FP DPS, and sub-par to Kinetic Combat for everything else. These are the facts.

 

Now is any tree particular gimp, no. But if you min/max the specs, what I'm telling you is true.

[Kitru]

Want to DPS - Go Kinetic Combat

 

I'm gonna have to call you on this. Kinetic Combat does respectable dps, but it's still noticeably worse than either Inf or Balance. If you go DPS as Kinetic Combat, you're doing it wrong: the only offensive benefits you get are PA and some other minor Project benefits whereas every other spec gets at least 1 offensive benefit that is on par with PA and numerous others that are almost as strong.

[grandmasterub]

I tanked for a group of all consulars the other day.

 

Kinetic shadow (me)

Infil Shadow

Dps sage

Healer sage

 

Group was terrible grouping wise no one would assist. Everyone on seperate targets. Healer did more dpsing than healing. Agro was a nightmare... I digress

 

Point is my target was always last to die. Kinetic does good dps, but infil/balance will always be greater.

[Murasakikitsune]

I'm gonna have to call you on this. Kinetic Combat does respectable dps, but it's still noticeably worse than either Inf or Balance. If you go DPS as Kinetic Combat, you're doing it wrong: the only offensive benefits you get are PA and some other minor Project benefits whereas every other spec gets at least 1 offensive benefit that is on par with PA and numerous others that are almost as strong.

 

If you could guesstimate a ratio of Kinetic DPS : Infiltration DPS, what would it be?

[Kitru]

If you could guesstimate a ratio of Kinetic DPS : Infiltration DPS, what would it be?

 

My general feeling is that Kinetic Combat deals roughly 80% of the DPS that an Infil or Balance would deal. The feeling is factoring in both spec and stat prioritization, though, so I expect that a Kinetic with DPS gear would deal roughly 90% of the DPS that an DPS in DPS gear deals.

[Varcan]

Kinetic Combat does respectable dps, but it's still noticeably worse than either Inf or Balance.

 

I respect your opinion as I know your very knowledgable. But I respectfully completely disagree with you during the lvl process. Infiltration gets almost nothing that adds significant dps for PvE purposes till the 31pt talent brings it all together. The players crit rate is not substaintially high to even take advantage of the crits talents, and you can't Force Potency multiple mobs.

 

I guess my problem with the other 2 is there dps is only better in FPs. And Inf, that's only lvls 41-50. So for lvling mobs, KC is still better for DPS too.

 

I don't personally even do FPs, so I'll fess up to being biased in favor of PvE questing and PvP viability..

[Kitru]

Infiltration gets almost nothing that adds significant dps for PvE purposes till the 31pt talent brings it all together.

 

The advantages that Infil gets as it levels are not in direct increases to damage because most of the early benefits that Infil gets are for efficiency and Force regen. Whereas a Kinetic Combat will quickly demolish it's entire Force reserves with DS and PA + Projects, an Infil is going to slowly burn through its Force doing much the same period of damage. It's true that you don't get massive *direct* damage increases as Infil until level 40, but there are very substantial indirect increases in damage that allow an Infil Shadow to do high levels of DPS for longer and at less cost than a Kinetic is capable of. The fact that it's indirect is one of the reasons why many people don't readily observe it, but it doesn't prevent it from being there.

 

It's just like why many people think that Balance does less damage than Infil because, unlike Infil, Balance does a lot of small bits of damage rather than big chunks of damage visible all at once. The human mind is just bad at determining and remembering overall state and really only hones in on single specific instances.

[Subatomix]

I tried Inf until about lvl 20, then bal until around 30. I've been Kin since 30 and haven't looked back. For pvp I've found Force Pull (30m) and Kinetic Ward (shield buf) essential. I don't think I would ever want to PVP without those abilities ever again.

 

I think Force Pull is my favorite actually. People run away 99% of the time after being pulled. I don't know why. I guess it scares them. So I slap a Force Slow immediately after and backstab away. Wheee! Nevermind how crucial it is in huttball.

 

EDIT: lvl 36 atm.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Subatomix

[shagatha]

I played as infiltration upto lvl34 and then switched to kinetic just to see it out. Currently at lvl36 and I really like it. I do miss infiltration moves like moving fast when in stealth mode and low slash. I also miss very big damage numbers..

 

Still it feels like kinetic does even more damage overall. It's sturdy. Force speed more often also makes it more fun to play. My only complaint about kinetic is that it's a bit too easy. Whatever you do; everyone dies except you.

 

I recommend to at least try both couple of days. I still gotta try balance before making any decisions but not sure yet even whichever is better of these two(kinetic&infiltration). Kinetic is probably better to play during saturday evenings with some beer and infiltration when you want to play tactical and mess with heads.

 

With infiltration you constantly remember your weaknesses but with kinetic, you only see your power.

Edited February 7, 2012 by shagatha

[Oldgrimm]

My advice... stick with the skilltree, which feels right to you.

 

I'm a very PvP based player, and the Kinetic PvP bandwagon is not that good.

Yes, Kinetic brings much more surviveability and the tools are sweet.

DPS is compareable (still in favor for Infiltration), because a Kinetic Shadow is not that forcestarved like an Infiltrator Shadow, but burst (and that is important in PvP is 0)

But the moment, when you try to kill a healer as a Kinetic Shadow, or anything else quickly, you will gain a quick laughter of your oponent, because you will only scratch his back.

 

Not a fan of hit & run tactics to burst down the key targets like healer or tank with active guard on key targets? Then Kinetic is your go.

 

You want to kill something quickly, top damagecharts and get medals quickly?

Go for Infiltration and well played 12 medals per game are yours.

 

Problem is... lern to play your Infi Shadow, and he is a beast.

Pick your fights and targets carefully, pop mass tount and burst the keytargets (mostly healer) down.

If you arent that quick in your reactions and in the avareness of your surroundings, go for Kinetic.

Infiltration is the pure glass cannon and relies highly on his cooldowns.

If you're cought, with a half full force bar and with no cooldowns, you will hit the target like wet noodles.

But if you are ready and can pop out your damage, then

 

4,5k Project -> (min 3 charges of ES) 5k FB -> 5k+ (procced) SS burns the target down fast.

(and learn to use Mindcrush... cast it after the target is hit with LowSlash) Yes, it works...

 

My impression:

 

PvP (Burst and DPS / high pressure on the target) = Infiltration

 

PvP (Surviveability and grouptools paired with mediocre pressure on the target) = Kinetic

 

PvE (sustained DPS on Boss) Infiltration>=Kinetic (mostly depends on the bosstactics)

- If you can stand in front of the boss and go for a full rotation, then the sustained DPS of a Kinetic is slightly better. (only because the forcemanagement in this specc is better)

If they buff (hopefully) the forcemanagement for Infiltration, then this specc will be the ultimate go.

 

- If the boss requires target switches and much movement Infiltration > Balance = Kinetic

(and the most of them are not very meleefriendly and require movement)

 

PvE (solo and leveling) = go for Kinetic... less downtimes

 

Infiltration works for me, because I love this playstyle.

[Kitru]

(only because the forcemanagement in this specc is better)

If they buff (hopefully) the forcemanagement for Infiltration, then this specc will be the ultimate go.

 

The only Force management tools that Kinetic gets are One with the Force (2.4 Force/sec) and DBSD (~1 Force/sec assuming you're actually tanking rather than DPSing). Infil gets Circling Shadows (assuming 2 Project every 21 seconds, roughly what Kinetic does and way less than what Infil should be doing, that's 2.1 Force/sec thanks to decreased cost; with a more direct 1 Project every 7.5 or 9 secs, it increases to 3 or 2.5 Force/sec respectively), Blackout (.755 Force/sec), and Profundity (.77 Force/sec; 10 sec ICD, ~1.5 attacks/GCD, and 3 attacks average before getting a Shadow Tech proc = 13 sec CD for 10 Force).

 

Infil has *better* Force management tools than Kinetic. The fact that it's not a direct increase to Force regen and instead relies upon intelligent play and cost reductions doesn't change the fact that Infil is the better tree for Force Management tools. If you actually looked at the tools in question rather than simply making a gut call, you'd see this.

[MatzahMaul]

I am currently a level 27 Shadow, Kinetic Combat spec. I enjoy it a lot. As soon as 2+ Heroics go green, I can solo them pretty well. I am intrigued with Infiltration, but I like being the tank.

I had a level 28 Juggernaut that was a tank, but I switched to dps after making my shadow my tank character. If going dps on the Juggernaut is anything like Shadow dps, you will have to heal up after most battles (unless you go dps/heal companion. I was dps/dps.)

 

Even tho I had mostly tanking gear, I found leveling as dps is a tad slower than leveling as a tank. I think the devs mentioned something about dps classes only have 5% more dps than tanks. That could have changed since launch, but I have not heard anything further on it.

As a tank I was hitting for as low as one hundreds and has high as 600's. As dps, I was hitting for lows in the one hundreds but my high-end was in the 800's. I would only have to heal myself every few groups, rather than after every fight as a tank, tho. Meaning the obvious, that you can live longer as a tank, but hit harder as a dps.

Personally I find tank leveling smoother. DPS has those high crits, but I feel more like a awesome Jedi as the tank.

[revolationz]

wow, what a great community...

 

Thanks for all the responses, been reading this at work and i cant wait to get home and try a few new things out.

 

Thank you to EVERYONE for your contribution. I might not know my exact spec, but after reading all these posts i know i made the right "class" choice !!

 

THANKS !!

[Feoktist]

Speaking of DPS, don't miss out the AoE skills that Infiltration lacks almost completely (except for the Whirling Blow). Kinetic (assuming Combat Technique) has Force Breach and then Slow Time at lvl 40. Balance has Force in Balance at an earlier lvl. In infiltration you surely can open with 2-3 Whirling Blows after stealth but then you're drained of force. I made my choice of Infiltration on the public beta test server but then on live lvled a tank.

 

For solo questing, many times you'll be clearing groups of trash so AoE will matter.

[Kitru]

In infiltration you surely can open with 2-3 Whirling Blows after stealth but then you're drained of force. I made my choice of Infiltration on the public beta test server but then on live lvled a tank.

 

For solo questing, many times you'll be clearing groups of trash so AoE will matter.

 

Situational Awareness is actually an amazing AoE talent. Why? Because getting to spam your non-CD AoE for 30 Force instead of 40 is actually *really good*. When you realize that you recover ~14.3 Force per GCD (1.5 secs * (8 Force/sec + .75 Blackout + .77 Profundity)), the net loss per GCD compared to a 30 v. a 40 Force is 15.7 Force compared to 25.7 Force. That 10 lower Force cost makes Whirling Blow 60% more spammable, which is more than you might expect.

[shagatha]

Situational Awareness is actually an amazing AoE talent. Why? Because getting to spam your non-CD AoE for 30 Force instead of 40 is actually *really good*.

I noticed your link for general shadow infiltration build. I also noticed situational awareness there and immediately went and tried it. It's very good at least for pve. I haven't done pvp yet with my latest modfications. It's nice way to get rid of trash with less work and time spent on animations.