Haroshia Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Due to the lack of an automated LFG tool in this game, I have met more new people and had more random fun with these people in the past month then in the past year of WoW. It may seem strange to some of you but being forced as a community to coordinate and work together in order to achieve goals is what makes an MMO succeed. I would rather sit around for 30 minutes to forever trying to make groups and being social and talking in general chat and talking to prospective group members then click on a button and be automagically ported to an instance with 3 other people I may never see again. The benefit of an LFG system is that content becomes more accessable for the masses and people can have thier instant gratification. This is what people want in all aspects of life. The direct result of this is that content becomes stale faster and rewards feel less epic. If you want a game to have longevity and feel epic and be enjoyable for years to come it must be difficult and take time, or fast-paced twitchy and churn content constantly. FPS and Action-RPG are designed to be fast-paced twitchy and as a result churn content (read: map packs). MMO-RPG is the genre that is supposed to be slow, difficult and time based. Please BW/EA/Lucas do not try to fight WoW directly. Create something different. The MMO community is divided heavily between those who want instant gratification and those who want challenge and reward. WoW owns the instant gratification crowd and I would love to see you guys go the way of providing for the challenge crowd. Eve has kept themselves successful through doing it thier own way for years. Set yourself apart from the WoW clones (read: eq clones) and keep this game pure and in the direction you are already going. At this point it is my opinion that the only thing that keeps WoW going is the snowball effect of its previous success. There is a reason that every new MMO comes out is touted as the WoW-killer. It is because people want something other then WoW. Then a new game comes out and tries to do it differently, but the people are so conditioned by WoW that they complain and force the company to turn it into a WoW-clone. The first WoW-Killer will refuse to bow to this and make something different then WoW. They will make Hard, Challenging, Time Consuming, and EPIC content that you feel amazing for completing. Down with instant gratification in SWTOR! Give me EPIC gratification! I too am a masochist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pink_Saber Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Picture me saying this while casually taking a sip of beer rather than frothing with rage. I'm saying that the LFG tool doesn't make the game any more anti-social in response to you saying to be cautious of it. Well, then it would have been better to actually make your point, rather than some totally irrelevant comment about spamming for hours. I'd like to see less of that, too. However, I disagree that WoW-style LFG tools don't effect how social groups are, and I have to assume anyone who thinks they don't didn't group both before and after it was implemented there. Instantly forming a group and dropping it into an instance removes most opportunities for communication before the first fight starts. It's just boom, you're here, now start killing things. Sure, maybe that's great if all you want to do is grind instances and see everyone else as voiceless NPCs, but there's something humanizing about actually needing to talk a little before you get started. Even if it's something as simple as "be there in a couple minutes," you get a sense that there are real people playing with you, which can only lead to people treating each other better. If you ask me, that aspect of WoW/Rift-style LFD tools has a much more detrimental effect on behavior than the cross-server anonymity aspect people are always pointing as as the reason there are so many jerks in those groups. Edited February 7, 2012 by Pink_Saber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lubberlick Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I too am a masochist. I wouldn't say that. I just enjoy having something to look forward to doing in the game when I logon rather then having 10 characters all done up because it was only a button click away. Then logging off till the next patch several months away still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haroshia Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Well, then it would have been better to actually make your point, rather than some totally irrelevant comment about spamming for hours. I'd like to see less of that, too. However, I disagree that WoW-style LFG tools don't effect how social groups are, and I have to assume anyone who thinks they don't didn't group both before and after it was implemented there. Instantly forming a group and dropping it into an instance removes most opportunities for communication before the first fight starts. It's just boom, you're here, now start killing things. Sure, maybe that's great if all you want to do is grind instances and see everyone else as voiceless NPCs, but there's something humanizing about actually needing to talk a little before you get started. Even if it's something as simple as "be there in a couple minutes," you get a sense that there are real people playing with you, which can only lead to people treating each other better. If you ask me, that aspect of WoW/Rift-style LFD tools has a much more detrimental effect on behavior than the cross-server anonymity aspect people are always pointing as as the reason there are so many jerks in those groups. I've been playing MMOs long before WoW. I can see your point, but at the same time I'm willing to sacrifice the minimal social interaction for the ability to quickly play the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moricthian Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I wouldn't say that. I just enjoy having something to look forward to doing in the game when I logon rather then having 10 characters all done up because it was only a button click away. Then logging off till the next patch several months away still. And BW should just force everyone to play and enjoy the game in the exact same way you do. Options are a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lubberlick Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 And BW should just force everyone to play and enjoy the game in the exact same way you do. Options are a good thing. When an automated LFG tool is put into the game it no longer becomes an option but a requirement. Its along the same lines of putting an NPC into the game that sells all current gear for 1000 credits a piece. Sure there might be 1% of people who would try to go without using said NPC, but the reality is everyone would use that NPC and it would have the same effect on the game as an automated LFG tool would have. People claim they want instant gratification, but when they get it suddenly they feel empty success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorchess Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 And BW should just force everyone to play and enjoy the game in the exact same way you do. Options are a good thing. I've seen this argument a lot, and while it looks valid on face value, in practice it doesn't hold up. People will use what's available to them. Which in turn means you have to, as well. If an LFG tool is implemented, everybody will be forced to use it. Not out of lack of options or choice, but out of sheer necessity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ichikitsune Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 game features don't trivialize the social aspects of a game. anti-social people do. and anti social people spend more time and more money playing video games in virtual worlds than anyone else. whether or not we have a low opinion of anti-social people, it would make good business sense to give them what they want before they find someone else who will. it isn't difficult to understand. blizzard gets it. trion gets it. if bioware doesn't get it, it's their loss. and it's a BIG loss. MMO players are not anti-social by nature but LFD makes it that way, it turns the game into a glorified Xbox Live. Maybe the ones that are really pushing for this over all the other issues that need to addressed need to go to consoles. I'm far from antisocial but in my experience with it is that is what I did become and the more I sat in Org/SW the more I found myself not playing or interacting with anyone but doing a lot of other stuff until I heard the ding to join group, go through the motions and then get back to Org/SW and proceeded to complain about the lack of skill of the people from this server or that one server that everybody hates. I eventually only logged on for raid and after LFR and defeating the last boss the first day it was available just lost interest. Will this game get a cross server LFD? Most likely eventually, but now is not the time. Should there be some improvements to the LFG interface already in place? You betcha but it is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurkan Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) A good post You can't compare SWTOR with EvE. I really love EvE despite not playing it for a while, but you're talking about a sandbox with a very different success rank population wise. You can't put it in the same league an MMO that aims to catter millions of players. CCP is not in the same league of BW/EA. For me EvE is simple amazing, the concept, the sandbox, the economy, it's (or was) a rare gem in the middle of all MMOs. Unfortunatly the big companies with the big dev teams and the big bucks learned nothing from it. I agree with the instant gratification part of your post. At the same time you have to understand, you spent 30m waiting for a group, what kind of server are you in? Some people can stay hours in much lesser populated servers. Some people only play 2h a night. It's *sad* to making them wait for nothing. With the current tool they are not making the content any harder, they are creating a barrier for a player to enjoy the game, nothing more. At the same time, that battle is already lost. The leveling is really easy, the flashpoints are easy, according to many the operations are also easy. Only thing that is creating barriers in progression are chests that you may be able to open or not for what I understand. I'm in the opinion that hard should be hard, heroics should be epic, nightmares? you should have nightmares several nights/weeks before being able to finish them and the result should be legendary. Put the chalenge in game, not in chest farming, bad UIs and lack of tools. I really love this game, but they have a looooooooooooot of work to do. Edited February 7, 2012 by Hurkan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moricthian Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 When an automated LFG tool is put into the game it no longer becomes an option but a requirement. Its along the same lines of putting an NPC into the game that sells all current gear for 1000 credits a piece. Sure there might be 1% of people who would try to go without using said NPC, but the reality is everyone would use that NPC and it would have the same effect on the game as an automated LFG tool would have. People claim they want instant gratification, but when they get it suddenly they feel empty success. LFG tool =/= getting free gear. try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moricthian Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) I've seen this argument a lot, and while it looks valid on face value, in practice it doesn't hold up. People will use what's available to them. Which in turn means you have to, as well. If an LFG tool is implemented, everybody will be forced to use it. Not out of lack of options or choice, but out of sheer necessity. Not so fast my friend. People who are anti-LFG claim its easy for them to get groups becauase they are in a guild/have a friends list. In fact, they often accuse pro-lfg people of lacking the social skills to make the former happen. However, if you run with your guild/friends it doesn't become a necessity to use the LFG tool. Just you know...be social. Edited February 7, 2012 by Moricthian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lubberlick Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 LFG tool =/= getting free gear. try again. Actually thats exactly what it does, and I was waiting for this post. It is the result of a snowball effect that we already seen happen in WoW. Step 1: Automated LFG Step 2: Failfest due to random people getting into groups with no coordination and gaming the system with inapropriate gear/specs. Step 3: Players are buffed/Flashpoints are nerfed into aoe spamfests with free gear. *insert well thought out slipper slope comments* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitewolfe Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Isnt it interesting how me wanting a tool that allows me to interact with a LOT more people equals me being anti social.. Them wanting no tool so they are restricted to a small fraction of the player base equals them being social. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ichikitsune Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 LFG tool =/= getting free gear. try again. That's not what he said. Read the post. LFD is not an option anymore in WoW, too many people use it that if you want to run a PUG that is non guild then you have to use it because you will not a get a group anyother way. That is what he is saying. Also there is already a LFG tool in game already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorchess Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Not so fast my friend. People who are anti-LFG claim its easy for them to get groups becauase they are in a guild/have a friends list. In fact, they often accuse pro-lfg people of lacking the social skills to make the former happen. However, if you run with your guild/friends it doesn't become a necessity to use the LFG tool. Just you know...be social. I do not claim it's easy. In fact, it's hard for me at the moment. People on my server don't seem to be interested in flashpoints at all. Part of the reason I play is because I enjoy meeting new people and playing with them. I am very much in favour of an improved LFG tool (just hopefully not automatic). I'm just very wary of the problems it caused in other games and would like for BioWare to be very careful with this. I am very opposed to cross-server LFG, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moricthian Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Actually thats exactly what it does, and I was waiting for this post. It is the result of a snowball effect that we already seen happen in WoW. Step 1: Automated LFG Step 2: Failfest due to random people getting into groups with no coordination and gaming the system with inapropriate gear/specs. Step 3: Players are buffed/Flashpoints are nerfed into aoe spamfests with free gear. *insert well thought out slipper slope comments* Please support your points with evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ichikitsune Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Isnt it interesting how me wanting a tool that allows me to interact with a LOT more people equals me being anti social.. Them wanting no tool so they are restricted to a small fraction of the player base equals them being social. How social are you really going to be to someone from a different server that you will only see for 15-30 minutes, especially to someone who never ran the FP before while you are on your 200th? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moricthian Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) I do not claim it's easy. In fact, it's hard for me at the moment. People on my server don't seem to be interested in flashpoints at all. Part of the reason I play is because I enjoy meeting new people and playing with them. I am very much in favour of an improved LFG tool (just hopefully not automatic). I'm just very wary of the problems it caused in other games and would like for BioWare to be very careful with this. I am very opposed to cross-server LFG, though. I agree with everything you said (except for the not automatic part). Maybe they should include a grouping system like the PvP que and maybe you can check a little box that asks you if you want to be ported there or not. If not, then the system finds three other people who have checked the same box as you. Though I do fail to understand why being ported to a flashpoint will keep you from making new friends especially if it is in server. Just chat and be friendly one you're in the flashpoint. BW can even keep the option that asks if you want to add any of your group to your friends list. Edited February 7, 2012 by Moricthian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lubberlick Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Please support your points with evidence. The evidence is in the WoW-forums and community over the past years of them putting the LFG tool into the game. In the begining there was no buff for joining an LFG group. Then people complained on the forums that because thier was no communication in LFG groups it was not fair compaired to guild organized groups. So a buff based on how many of the members of your group were "random" was implimented in order to curb this percieved inequality. The buff resulted in DPS/Healing gains from 50-75% completely trivializing the content. Yes I know the buff read 5% per "random" player but I can assure you the result when a skilled player was behind that buff was much more noticable. Also note in WoW that when the LFR was implimented the raid bosses were nerfed so badly that they all became basic tank and spanks. Morchok (ignore the red crystal), Yor'saj (who cares what slime you kill), Gen. Zon(point the ball at the wall and ignore it), Ultraxion (no need to leave the twilight realm to survive Hour). Edited February 7, 2012 by lubberlick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moricthian Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The buff resulted in DPS/Healing gains from 50-75% completely trivializing the content. Please provide evidence supporting your claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lubberlick Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Please provide evidence supporting your claims. Provided in Edit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racheakt Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 How social are you really going to be to someone from a different server that you will only see for 15-30 minutes, especially to someone who never ran the FP before while you are on your 200th? The same way I am social now with the new player and i am leveling my 8th toon, I am polite, i joke, and i tell him how to fight and what to expect in the instance. really every grouping of random players either via general chat or a matchmaker --it is your responsibility to make it a social event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moricthian Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Provided in Edit. I am having trouble seeing this proof. Please tell me again how implementing a automated LFG tool will "completely trivialize content" and lead to "free gear". Also, just because they nerf something doesn't mean its because of the LFG tool. They nerf every raid eventually so that everyone can see the content. Also, I'm not advocating for a LFR tool. I'm advocating for a LFG tool. All raid related arguments should be saved for a thread dealing with that subject. Edited February 7, 2012 by Moricthian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racheakt Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I am having trouble seeing this proof. Please tell me again how implementing a automated LFG tool will "completely trivialize content" and lead to "free gear". Also, just because they nerf something doesn't mean its because of the LFG tool. They nerf every raid eventually so that everyone can see the content. Also, I'm not advocating for a LFR tool. I'm advocating for a LFG tool. All raid related arguments should be saved for a thread dealing with that subject. He has is opinion and it is rather fixed, odds are he will always think an X-server LFG tool causes cancer, you are not going to change his mind. My opinion is this: in a sandbox Rep matters as the world is free range you need others to depend on to make to the highest end of the game, see UO, EvE, AC. In a theme park Rep is silly, when loot is another 30 min instance away, all the events are rides like roller-coasters does it realy matter if the guy in the car behind you kicks puppies as a hobby? Do you run around Six Flags finding the most reputable people to ride the coaster with you? Do you hit the food court begging folks to ride it with you? No; you get in the queue and ride it when it is your turn. Or you get a fast pass, in the game context that is for a group with guildies or friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moricthian Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 He has is opinion and it is rather fixed, odds are he will always think an X-server LFG tool causes cancer, you are not going to change his mind. You're probably right. Just something inside of me cringes when I see people using irrational arguments. I don't know, it seems like its a violation of nature or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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