SWTOR: Theme-park MMO design. End of the road?

[souloferdrick]

Which is exactly what EA/BW has done. Borrowed formula, implemented worse, wrapped up with ZOMGLIGHTSABERS, sold for big profits.

 

My criticisms of this title are many and yes, anything designed for a mass audience for the express purpose of large profits is going to disappoint over the long haul. But rather than blame the companies, I blame the players who drove it in this direction.

[GrantT]

/signed

 

 

 

I understand that people would lose their biscuits if any company tried to bring back an old school leveling system / sandbox game to the market nowadays (thanks wow!).

 

I do see the benefits of the hybrid though - having some sandbox type areas would greatly increase the desire to keep logging in for a large majority of people (the old school gamers I think mainly - and there are a lot of us out there!).

 

 

Some of my best memories from old school MMO's is simply wandering across the world and coming across random dungeons, finding epic loot / boss critters, etc.

 

 

I really miss simply being able to pick a direction and start running and being completely engrossed in the game as I travel. Nowadays the player is led by the nose everywhere and spoon fed the game and every players experience is pretty much identical.

 

 

Which is very terribly sad, and if things don't change - it will be the downfall of the genre as a whole.

 

 

This.

 

 

I agree 100%, and unfortunately those games will not come around anymore with an actual budget behind one.

[ActionPrinny]

Don't agree at all.

 

Honestly, this sounds like a lot of pre-grad theorizing, because its just not happening. The little annoyances are just that, little annoyances.

 

If you truly are studying design, in particular game design, then you would understand that end game content is never ready at release. We experienced this same phenomenon during the first months of Wow, and to a lesser degree, Everquest. We experienced the same type of arguments promulgating its demise.

 

Further, extended leveling, forced group play or interaction have both failed when attempted, and were a motivating factor in the migration from Everquest to Wow. Extended grind it not the answer.

 

If Wow has taught us anything, it is that end game is where it is at....and there is alot that can be done with it over the years.

 

I never said they were game-breaking, I said that when you compound all these annoyances together over the course of playing the game, they have a real impact on peoples' perception of the game. There is also a big difference between hitting max level in a month or less in SWTOR and the days of EQ1 where it was about a real life year to hit L50 to start. There is a lot of leeway between those two points to strike a balance. And I would argue more that the motivating factor was that EQ1 had been out for 5 years before WoW even released, so people were just naturally ready for a new game.

 

End-game content not being available at release was fine for EQ1, because they basically invented raiding, and it was a looong time before people were max level to attempt it. WoW also didn't add Molten Core for about 2-3 months, but there again most people took about that long to hit cap level and gear up their character in Strath, UBRS, etc.

 

The market has been led to expect "instant gratification" these days, and the bar has raised significantly since the days of WoW's release. Not launching with end-game content is just not acceptable to many subscribers anymore. And if the game doesn't begin until the end-game, then why expend 90% of your resources designing tons of planets nobody cares about after being there for 8 hours? Why not use some of those resources to better polish the end-game for release?

 

What innovations would you have them do for end-game content? The current end-game system is old and stale. People are tired of doing dailies, then dungeons, then raids and wait for the next tier to repeat. Innovation is also hampered by the fact that most people find the most basic boss strategies to be too complex. No matter how many raids they do, they will always "stand in fire" and die.

 

Also to what was said before about turning a profit -- this is incorrect. MMOs are a massive monetary outlay. A game with the budget this game has will take probably around 2 years before they start turning a profit. You not only have to pay for the initial budget, but ongoing development costs, salaries, server costs, customer service reps, maintenance, etc. WoW didn't get out of the red until their 3rd year financials, and even then it was a modest amount. The 4th year was when they finally started earning money hand over fist.

Edited February 8, 2012 by ActionPrinny

[archfiend]

I agree that it really is "the little things"

there is nothing majorly broken in the game as far as I have seen. But these little irritants and annoyances keep popping up. Big swing and a miss on the "quality of life" features and when you combine that with myriad of bugs and annoyances the game just gets frustrating instead of fun.

[Rotny]

There's so much -How to make a successful, genre defining, epic MMORPG that will gain millions of subscribers and make everyone happy- info in this thread it should be stickied for the devs to read, absorb and change the game for the better with.

Srsly I'm not even kidding.

 

I can't even fathom how devs don't seem to get that this deep sandbox/themepark is what players want to see.. and when a dev does make this (it's inevitably going to happen eventually) mmo, they will rule the mmo market so we'd better get on that and do it first.

SRSLY, HOW DO YOU NOT KNOW THIS BIOWARE?

 

/exasperated

[ShaftyMcShaft]

But rather than blame the companies, I blame the players who drove it in this direction.

 

I don't know. So long as what you're planning to do, you do well, I'm fine with it. IRL I'm a business owner, so I always have to deal with customer service, and one of the truisms I always consider is:

 

"People get upset when their expectations do not match their reality."

 

So, you tell somebody "your order will be ready in 2 weeks." If their order is ready in 2 weeks, they're happy. If it's ready in 1 week, they're thrilled. If it's ready in 3 weeks, they're pissed. Now if you had said, "it'll be ready in 3 weeks" and it were ready in 3 weeks...they'd be fine. So long as what you told them would happen is what happens, no problem. It's when they're expecting X and they get Y that they're pissed.

 

I checked in on this game for a couple of years, watched the developer interview videos, read about the classes and their design ideas and all that. (but didn't play the beta...ALTHOUGH I'M KIND OF PLAYING IT NOW AMIRITE?!?) And they said they were making a theme-park game, and they mentioned WoW and said that everybody from here on out has to be compared to WoW and exceed what WoW does, and what they showed looked an awful lot like WoW. Classes, specs, The Trinity, dungeons and raids, etc.

 

So, I was expecting a WoW clone. That's fine with me. I've played WoW for 7 years, heroic raider competing on wowprogress.com, some top parses on world of logs. Pandas looked lame, and I'm thinking "huh, they say they're going to be like WoW but exceed what WoW does, learning from Blizzard's seven years of successes and failures, with modern technology, only with lightsabers instead of pandas! Great!'

 

I'm expecting WoW except better and I got WoW but worse. It's a fun change of pace and I did indeed get my lightsabers, but at the end of the day it just doesn't have the depth or scope of WoW. It's KOTOR3 with multiplayer, which is AWESOME...as a single player RPG, but not as a theme-park MMO. And what do we do with single-player games? Beat them, maybe play through another time or two, and then shelve them and move on to something else.

 

Theme park is fine. But make it a GREAT theme park.

 

Sandbox is fine. But make it a GREAT sandbox.

 

Best yet would be both together! Directed epic stories and complex raids but also cities to build and unique items to craft.

 

But, whatever it is you say you're going to be...be a very, very good version of that. You can't be a worse version of the same old thing and expect people to pay a subscription.

[Lunazen]

 

IMHO the only way forward from here is to mix together elements of the Theme Park, with the Sandbox. Sandbox MMOs alone are too niche to be economically feasible or popular on a large scale. But having sandbox elements in a theme park design, would help subscribers weather the periods between content updates, and give them a reason to keep logging in.

 

Yes!! I've been trying to put my finger on what is wrong with MMOs today and you've nailed it. The sandbox days are over, but the themepark MMOs are "beaten" too quickly and are too much been-there/done-that, even in a brand new game.

 

But mix the two... absolutely brilliant!

Edited February 8, 2012 by Lunazen

[Fardarter]

Yes!! I've been trying to put my finger on what is wrong with MMOs today and you've nailed it. The sandbox days are over, but the themepark MMOs are "beaten" too quickly and are too much been-there/done-that, even in a brand new game.

 

But mix the two... absolutely brilliant!

 

Sandbox days are over until someone makes a good sandbox. I dont see a ton of money being poured into a sandbox but some small studio will take some chances and make a good sandbox one of these days.

[LoadedWeapon]

I have had some time to read. I have been in the hospital for days with my wife she has just had our 2nd child. So I am a father and a computer programmer. I have been playing games all my life and I know a few things about mmo's. I am a guild leader and me and my guild have played pretty much every mmo out.

And like alot of other people I to was looking to get away from WoW have been for years not because I don't like it but because we are ready for something new.

Sadly SWTOR is not it.. if they would have spent half the money wasted on VO in the core of the game and things that really matter in the long run the game would have had a chance. Im not even going to get into the countless bugs in raid and end game but just the simple fact that they can't even fix the UI before launch but add more buggy content.

Like so many other people have posted if your going to make a game like other games atleast go farward and improve on what's already out there.. BW has took steps backward and really just pushing people away.

[gregordunbar]

I can't even fathom how devs don't seem to get that this deep sandbox/themepark is what players want to see.. and when a dev does make this (it's inevitably going to happen eventually) mmo, they will rule the mmo market so we'd better get on that and do it first.

SRSLY, HOW DO YOU NOT KNOW THIS BIOWARE?

 

/exasperated

 

You cannot fathom it because you think that just because you want it, it must mean most people want it.

 

They dont. Thats why the deep sandbox game that was made...didnt do well.

 

The biggest problem here is that the terms "sandbox" and "themepark" started out with one meaning, and grew into a different meaning...and people are getting them confused.

 

Pre SWG, the word sandbox was DIFFERENT. UO was a sandbox game.

 

Sandbox meant nothing more than OPEN WORLD. You logged in, you were in the world and it wasnt broken down into zones. Asherons Call was also a sandbox game even though all the dungeons had a "portal" to enter it.

 

Then came SWG and took sandbox to another level...meaning a box filled with sand and nothing else, you had to make the content...no real story, quests...nothing. Just a box of sand. you dont out-level an area and move on. you just try to find an excuse to do things that will hopfully not fade and you get bored out of your mind.

 

Few people want a freaking $15 a month box of sand. Most people like "open world" but that is not what sandbox means anymore and it hasnt for almost a decade. Its far more than that...or should I say less, the lesser there is, the more sandbox it is.

[WickedJediKnight]

people burn through the leveling content in 5 days /played and expect more within weeks.

 

Yeah... I wonder how that 5 days would look without a spacebar-skip?

 

I have a hard time believing there is *less* than 5 days of actual dialog; never mind combat or getting from place to place, managing skills, inventory, etc.

 

You don't see universal studios building a beach because people are tired of the same 30 rides. You ride the rides again, and that's part of the fun. "Oh I missed that the first time, look I never saw that before, lets ride in the back this time" etc.

 

Sandbox players should stick to sandbox games. Take away the rails, and the people that are here for the rides will leave. Better at this point to make it the best ride possible than to put everyone on the ground because some people are unhappy it only goes in one direction. It's not a sandbox game, please get over it.

 

Seriously, anyone read game informer? There is an interview with one of the head devs of Bethesda games. He specifically points out the contrast between BW games (Theme-parks) and Bethesda games (Sandboxes).

 

Why some people can't seem to grasp that not every-game has to cater to every player is beyond me. If you can't enjoy the type of game that this is, well, then it's probably better to find one that suits you more. Mostly when I hear people crying they need more sand, it's players that are actually upset blizzard can't deliver more, and are trying to get their raid crack from someone else who doesn't deal in that.

Edited February 8, 2012 by WickedJediKnight

[GalacticKegger]

I have had some time to read. I have been in the hospital for days with my wife she has just had our 2nd child. So I am a father and a computer programmer. I have been playing games all my life and I know a few things about mmo's. I am a guild leader and me and my guild have played pretty much every mmo out.

And like alot of other people I to was looking to get away from WoW have been for years not because I don't like it but because we are ready for something new.

Sadly SWTOR is not it.. if they would have spent half the money wasted on VO in the core of the game and things that really matter in the long run the game would have had a chance. Im not even going to get into the countless bugs in raid and end game but just the simple fact that they can't even fix the UI before launch but add more buggy content.

Like so many other people have posted if your going to make a game like other games atleast go farward and improve on what's already out there.. BW has took steps backward and really just pushing people away.

Grats!!!

[funkhouser]

You're missing the variation on point 1: You make a game like WoW, but not as good as WoW.

 

This game is exactly like WoW. Pick 1 of 2 factions. Pick 1 of 8-10 classes, SWTOR classes being mostly mirrors of WoW classes (see funny warrior ability jpg). Pick spec. Go do quests mostly of the "kill X wolves/collect Y spleens/deliver this package." Level. Put points in cookie-cutter talent builds. Make group with tank/healer/dps for dungeons/fps. At max level, grind gear from dungeons, do dailies, queue for bgs/wzs, do raids/ops.

 

The ONLY thing SWTOR innovated is the voice acted personal storyline, which is just a window-dressing thing.

 

In every other way, it's exactly like WoW, only not quite as good. And I'm not even talking about "features," like LFD, LFR, searchable bags, group summons, etc. I mean just the basic parts of the game itself.

 

WoW: open world, seamless except when switching continents. Day/night cycles. Weather. Interactive NPCs who move and talk. Items you can interact with, like doors to open or chairs to sit in. Mini games at the darkmoon faire.

 

SWTOR: constrained, claustrophobic world on rails. Loading screens between everything. Pointless orbital stations. Static world with no night no day no weather or climbing no swimming no flying. NPCs are silent statues. Nothing to click on or use.

 

WoW: multiple quest paths/zones to choose from while leveling (Westfall or Loch Modan or Darkshore?). You can level 2-3 characters and almost never do the same quest twice until the last few zones. Mobs that will patrol and interfere with your fights, that will run when they're low on HP, that will summon for help, that will fear you or otherwise do things that might surprise you. Quest areas that overlap between factions so you might see PvP on a PvP server and have interesting things happen.

 

SWTOR: one quest path on rails. Play through twice, 80% of the game is the same. Static mobs that have no AI besides "See player. Attack player til dead." Totally separate quest zones that don't even overlap even for the "PvP planet" Ilum dailies. You can level and never see an opposing faction player.

 

WoW: Complex (or at least more somewhat dynamic) class mechanics (talking currently, not vanilla) that require the player to pay attention to buffs, procs, resources for optimal rotations in healing or damage dealing. Unique class/spec abilities, and a unique 'feel' to each class. Carefully balanced classes (held in check because we can keep the devs honest with meters and logs).

 

SWTOR: Whack-a-mole healing. DPS rotations that can be macroed to one button on a Razer Naga. Total PvP homogenization where every class can stun and knockback. Class balance? Who knows!

 

WoW: Tightly tuned, complex fight mechanics. Raids that take weeks or months to clear at difficulties appropriate for casual guilds or hardcore guilds.

 

SWTOR: Mostly tank-and-spank fights (plus tower of hanoi!). "Nightmare Mode" raids cleared by dozens of guilds within a few weeks of release, "hardmode raids pugged."

 

WoW/SWTOR: Can't say I like the arena method of PvP progression, but come on...random loot bags? Really?

 

WoW definitely has its flaws, but SWTOR exactly tried to copy WoW but did it pretty much worse in every way. The two games are EXACTLY THE SAME...except SWTOR's very similar implementation of whatever it is it's copying from WoW is broken and half-assed.

 

I just don't understand how somebody can dislike WoW, but like SWTOR, when they're the same game, only SWTOR is not as well implemented. It's like saying "ugh, I hate mexican food! It's so gross, it's all just meat, cheese and tortillas! Can't STAND mexican food! But ya know what I love? TACO BELL. Best food EVAR." What? Taco Bell is just a terrible, plastic, crappy version of something like mexican food. It's the same thing, only worse! How can you hate WoW, but like SWTOR? SWTOR is EXACTLY LIKE WoW only worse!

 

And man I need to close this browser window. I just wasted 15 minutes of my life typing that.

 

:(:(:(

[Torquist]

Is GW2 sandbox or themepark?

[DirtyDiggler]

sandboxs typcial shoot themselves in the foot. Darkfall for example would have been the best game ever IMHO if they had just put in a bloody skills cap and shorten the grind....

 

But noo and they refused to fix it which killed the game off.

 

No one wants to play an open world open loot pvp game with no safe zones thats requires you to grind your arse off for the next 6 months before you can even think of killing anyone or defending yourself because there is no skills cap and the no lifers marcoed and no lifed themselves into God mode.

[Pinchy_]

Whoever thinks sandbox style isn't the future of MMOs is fooling themselves.

 

Theme parks alone are absolutely a dead end at this point. WAY too repetitive. I thought SWG was very innovative for what they attempted, and I felt it worked. Coupled with some theme park elements that game could have been the best.

 

The fact that Bioware didn't choose to take a risk and just went for the safe bet without a shred of originality, is being reflected on the feedback for this game and the reason this game will probably fade away very shortly, at least from the spotlight.

 

Sandbox style, player cities, player created content is the future of MMOs, if there is any future at all.

 

';,,;' Currently I'm working on getting some feedback for an MMO that has a turn base combat system, a base for your guild that is custom crafted and the land terraformed to your needs for tower defence like strategy, and mission based resource gathering.

 

Trust me, it's nothing like what you are thinking of.

[GalacticKegger]

Ok, I am expecting some sort of flames for this, but in reality, we have a couple different problems:

 

~ snip ~

 

B: Casual players are at the same time the best players and the worst players.

Great post and no flaming here. Some "casual" players (possibly even many) are ex-hardcores who burned out on end game being a 2nd full-time job. No more grinding 20+ dailies and heroics. No more farming 3 nights a week to support raids. No more 4 hour wipe nights twice a week with multiple six hour boss grinds on the weekends.

 

Casuals. They still have viable skills and can hold their own in a fair fight. They excel in team environments and have zero tolerance for attitudes. Their perfectionist edge is gone because they chose to let it go. They bask in the heat of battle but have no desire to fight an entire war. They play to win - just not at all costs. When they pat you on the back, you can add it to your resumé. And when they drink, they drink Dos Equis. Stay thirsty my friends . . .

 

I can say this because I am one of them. I'm a recovered hardcore. I'm a casual and I'm proud of it:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWH1jEgiO0w&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLA530801732670E76

Edited February 8, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Rotny]

You cannot fathom it because you think that just because you want it, it must mean most people want it.

 

They dont. Thats why the deep sandbox game that was made...didnt do well.

 

The biggest problem here is that the terms "sandbox" and "themepark" started out with one meaning, and grew into a different meaning...and people are getting them confused.

 

Pre SWG, the word sandbox was DIFFERENT. UO was a sandbox game.

 

Sandbox meant nothing more than OPEN WORLD. You logged in, you were in the world and it wasnt broken down into zones. Asherons Call was also a sandbox game even though all the dungeons had a "portal" to enter it.

 

Then came SWG and took sandbox to another level...meaning a box filled with sand and nothing else, you had to make the content...no real story, quests...nothing. Just a box of sand. you dont out-level an area and move on. you just try to find an excuse to do things that will hopfully not fade and you get bored out of your mind.

 

Few people want a freaking $15 a month box of sand. Most people like "open world" but that is not what sandbox means anymore and it hasnt for almost a decade. Its far more than that...or should I say less, the lesser there is, the more sandbox it is.

 

I'm sure they don't account for everyone, but I have lots of mmo vet friends and they pretty much universally are disappointed in swtor and comment on how they wish bioware had added more sandbox elements. Specifically: large open worlds with little pathing. Deep crafting and a long leveling process.

This is a constant topic of conversation amongst my grp of friends. We all complain about how everything is too themepark-y, too wow-y, too much content on rails. Everything is pathed. There are no real decisions that matter outside of which AC to pick. etc.

Listening to my friends comments and then coming here and seeing thread after thread highlighting the same topics. We're not alone.

Wow was a great themepark swg was a great sandbox. Now a days neither is good enough alone and elements of both are needed to create mmo innovation. Not voice overs..

[Kalfear]

Originally Posted by fujeo-finel

A month and a half for one toon sounds reasonable to me. Another month and a half for gear grinding at 50, multiplied by four different classes with individual stories, not counting auxiliary activities like PvP, crafting and trolling general. Sounds reasonable to me.

 

so 3 months at who's speed? Is that 3 months of a hardcore 6-10 hours a day? or 3 months at a very casual 1-3 hours a day? Makes a huge difference.

 

LOL, well if hes saying a month and a half to level to 50 then its gotta be based on a 50+ hour a week play schedual cause 1.5 month leveling at 20-25 hours a week is WAY TO FAST!

 

Course I have no desire to play the 2nd part of his design

 

Basically hes asking for RIFT with a more timely leveling curve and NO THANKS to that.

 

RIFT was a great game other then super easy mode and any concept related to end game.

 

Equipment grind replacing skill and ability remains the stupidest game design Ive ever seen in 21+ years of MMORPG playing to me.

 

Now chasing drops for social status in end game is fine with me, as long as the equipment is not required to partake in end game activities.

 

Personally Id like to see a 4 month leveling curve (based on a experienced player (9+ years) in MMORPGs playing 25 hours a week) with NO RAIDS at end game but lots of 4-6 man Dungeons/Flashpoints and DAoC (pre RAs) RVR so its in everyones best interest to INCLUDE, not exclude based on false stats and limits/damg ranges, all faction/realm players to defend or attack around a common purpose that rewards the REALM/FACTION and not individual players or groups or guilds.

 

The problem with modern games is they to reward heavy on individual or group set up and dont do nearly enough to reward INCLUSSION OF ALL.

 

RAIDS, while a great concept originally, have been so abused and mistreated that they have become a detriment and problem to the community function of MMORPGs.

 

PVP as well, because of individual rewards, has become a function of exclusion and elimination based on meaningless stats (equipment) rather then joining factions and forces to a common goal!

 

Thats what pre RA DAoC did so amazingly well and because of it you had those future Elitist 50s BEGGING level 20s and 30s to come join in and defend the realms relic keeps and frountier keeps.

 

Those same people now run damage meters and look at players equipment to judge them (usually falsely and incorrectly)prior to even seeing what someone brings to table skill wise.

 

The Future of MMORPGs are not sandbox/themepark. PVP this, RAID that.

 

The Future of MMORPGs is the title that can bring community back into the genre and games.

 

When people dont shut general chat to off and ignore their fellow players!

When people dont say you need this set of gear or this amount of HPs or ect.

 

The Future of MMORPGs is the title that can bring community back into the genre and games.

[DarthKhaos]

There was a Farmville MMO. It was called SW:G. You may like it but it did not appeal to a lot of people. One thing you fail to realize is this is a business. All the great ideas you got (and don't get me wrong, they're great) doesn't pay the bills. The forum goers are a small population. The ranting and raving going on in the thread is tiny compared to the general game population and we do not truly represent what is going on in the average gamer in the game population.

 

You want cutting edge, don't expect the game to have mass appeal. You want huge titles that will draw in a LOT of people, don't expect something radically different from the norm.

 

Do you know why Farmvill is popular? Because it's simple. Insanely simple. So simple I'm not gonna touch it, but that's OK. Just because the game is popular doesn't mean I just HAVE to play it. Do you think the action of that farmer has any consequence on the other? Just imagine one person does some crap gets a swarm of locus and they spread to your farm. You may say "That's interactive or shows how the game changes." but the average Farmviller will get annoyed and stop playing.

 

You say there's nothing to do in the game but there's just as much to do as in WoW end game. 16 Hard Mode Flashpoints (6 more than WoW) , 2 Operations (3 less than WoW), 3 Warzones (5 less than WoW, although only 2 of them came out with Cataclysm), dailies just like wow, objective based world pvp planet (wow has a objective based wold pvp zone), and a FREE FOR ALL PVP AREA (WoW has a small one)

 

I find it funny when people say they're bored and say stuff like "Well I don't like PvP, wasn't a fan of the story, don't raid, and didn't like the crafting." So why did they even show up here in the first place fore less get a character to 50? Just because it's Star Wars or you was hoping for SW:G2 or some other version of the game BioWare clearly stated it was NOT going to be doesn't mean you HAVE to play it. Move on. Find something you find fun because that's what a game is SUPPOSED to be about. F.U.N.

[DarthKhaos]

One doesn't live at a theme park. You go TO the theme park and go HOME afterwards. Right now there is no home to go to. We are just paupers sleeping under the tables in the Vaiken Cantina.

I love this analogy. Some people are looking to live in the game. They want the game to be home. Log off and go home. This is as the poster said a Theme Park that you VISIT.

[Rigota]

I love this analogy. Some people are looking to live in the game. They want the game to be home. Log off and go home. This is as the poster said a Theme Park that you VISIT.

I agree with actionprinny, he/she ment it figuratively not to live in the game. This is the reason why you get bored of the game.

 

SWTOR: Theme-park MMO design. End of the road?

I hope theme parks never be made (like this) again.

 

Future of MMORPGS are sandboxes with a good game in the sandbox like pvp, pve, gameplay is good etc.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Rigota

[MrTijger]

Sandbox days are over until someone makes a good sandbox. I dont see a ton of money being poured into a sandbox but some small studio will take some chances and make a good sandbox one of these days.

 

Oh but they have...its called GTA.

 

Ah, you wanted an MMO sandbox? Yes, well...we dont do those anymore, couldnt sell them.

[DarthKhaos]

~SNIP~

 

SWTOR: constrained, claustrophobic world on rails. Loading screens between everything. Pointless orbital stations. Static world with no night no day no weather or climbing no swimming no flying. NPCs are silent statues. Nothing to click on or use.

 

WoW: multiple quest paths/zones to choose from while leveling (Westfall or Loch Modan or Darkshore?). You can level 2-3 characters and almost never do the same quest twice until the last few zones. Mobs that will patrol and interfere with your fights, that will run when they're low on HP, that will summon for help, that will fear you or otherwise do things that might surprise you. Quest areas that overlap between factions so you might see PvP on a PvP server and have interesting things happen.

 

SWTOR: one quest path on rails. Play through twice, 80% of the game is the same. Static mobs that have no AI besides "See player. Attack player til dead." Totally separate quest zones that don't even overlap even for the "PvP planet" Ilum dailies. You can level and never see an opposing faction player.

 

WoW: Complex (or at least more somewhat dynamic) class mechanics (talking currently, not vanilla) that require the player to pay attention to buffs, procs, resources for optimal rotations in healing or damage dealing. Unique class/spec abilities, and a unique 'feel' to each class. Carefully balanced classes (held in check because we can keep the devs honest with meters and logs).

 

SWTOR: Whack-a-mole healing. DPS rotations that can be macroed to one button on a Razer Naga. Total PvP homogenization where every class can stun and knockback. Class balance? Who knows!

 

WoW: Tightly tuned, complex fight mechanics. Raids that take weeks or months to clear at difficulties appropriate for casual guilds or hardcore guilds.

 

~SNIP~

I find this sooooooo funny. Not dogging WoW or anything because I enjoyed my time there. But if you're saying you can't one button WoW you're lying to yourself.

I've been through zones here in TOR, someone called me back to give em a hand and it's in a location I've never been. Know why? I'm not trying to squeeze out the life on every planet with one character. My other character will go there.

 

Whack-a-mole healing? Hehe how many WoW healers use Clique & Grid combo or Healbot. Yea very in depth.

 

I find it funny how people would ignore cretin things just to make their point in hopes people wouldn't notice.

[MrTijger]

More people agree with him than you. Enough said. Players are unhappy, theres a reason why. Building a community with a definite social interaction helps the MMO. Look at SWG for an example, look at their cantinas, THEIR Galactic Trade Market. Its a sandbox social niche. THats what make MMO's fun. Right now it isnt fun for the many of us. For you, but not for the many. ActionPrinny brought out a great issue, and i agree, we need a little sandbox for us to play in.

 

You forgot a word, the many on the forum. Those do not equal the many in the game.

 

I've asked this before and I'll ask again, why, if as you say the majority prefers sandboxes do they not subscribe when there is a sandbox game then? So either your numbers are far smaller than you imagine or ya'll are telling fibs here what it is you want.