SWTOR: Theme-park MMO design. End of the road?

[Uben]

A lot of the deep seated issues with MMOs these days stem from them trying to be all things to all people. They fail to say 'we're making a car, please take your desire for a flatbed truck to that truck dealership over there'. If any game were perfect, we'd never play anything else. By definition, one person's perfect will not match another's. This yields multiple games, multiple options.

 

One key thing customers of MMOs should stop doing is latching onto the latest game and go 'oh but it must have X, it must have Y'. No, it doesn't need to. What it needs is a consistent well implemented vision that the developers stick to. Take EVE as a great example. CCP have mostly stuck to their guns in creating a harsh ruthless world. Tacking on features at the last minute to satisfy some group of players at whom your product was never aimed is a great way to end up pulling your product in too many different directions. There is a real balancing act here.

 

The other significant issue is that innovation is generally received badly. Witness the outcry in various games by a generation that have played WoW and its ilk for so long that they genuinely cannot operate in a different environment. There are real Pavlovian conditions at work here. Game developers ignore that conditioning at their peril, whether we like it or not. That doesn't mean don't innovate, but it means innovate within a space that is going to be accessible to the majority of your target audience, even if that means sacrificing some innovation for familiarity.

 

As for the whole theme-park vs sandbox thing; it's a moot point in my view. Both ultimately run out of content. The distinction is that one is visible at the end of the current storyline, and the other is when you've achieved total boredom because you've done everything.

 

Sandbox equally does not translate to a simulator (which is what, for example, Minecraft is). Simulators have a very different target audience; they are pure world creation and often have little or no real gameplay. The joy is not in experiencing content, but building it. That is an incredibly subjective & dangerous area for an MMO to go into. For example; I cannot think of a single sandbox MMO where you genuinely create content. The only MMO in fact at all that I can think of is STO 's Foundry. Everything else, the content is still developer-created. The remaining task is about dressing up grind of some form into an acceptable package that people will invest time over (see EVE null-sec, the entire basis of World of Tanks, and pretty much any open-world PvP objective ever written).

 

The argument that says 'players create the content' has missed that there is no content. The correct phrase is 'players convince themselves it's worth the time to do X'. That's not wrong, but it's important to understand the carrots & sticks in this design.

 

The full loot pvp aside, think of what Mortal Online could have done with a 150 mil budget and 7 years to make it. (Mortal Online is a good example for this because they are still up after 2 years and have more features/dynamic content than Tor does with less than 1/10th the budget and backing.)

 

The sand box games never get the budget. Mostly that is the reason they fail usually. Lack of money for hardware, manpower, and development. What is the last BIG budget company that tried this? SWG is the only thing that came to mind. It set records, it lasted 8 years.. THROUGH one of the biggest MMO fiascos in history. So the ability to go at least SOME of this route is there and profitable.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Uben

[Grammarye]

I have played eve for 7 Years and i have not maxed out all the skills in the game.. and you know what due to outstanding game design it is not possable to ever max out every skill in the game. because they take a long time to max each seperate skill and there are 100's of them.

Apples & oranges. The skill design in EVE is there for a reason. There are no classes and thus the skills must by definition be unachievable. If they were not, long term players could become wonderful at everything and have no need to enlist the assistance of others. It is in effect mutable classes. It promotes the multiplayer component of the game in the same way. Thus it is perfectly reasonable design to max out a given class when you are artificially limiting what that class can do.

 

EVE's design is arguably superior, but then one must have the intestinal fortitude to skill train & be patient. It's a tradeoff, and one that puts off players, but CCP accepted a low total subscriber base & factored that into their business plans.

[Kentontudor]

/signed

 

+1

[Toketopia]

My two cents.

 

Most of my experience with MMO's comes from wow. I didn't like leveling in wow at all. The pvp had its ups and downs and pve was where I found most my entertainment. When SWTOR came out I was very excited. It was a new experience from warcraft until I hit 50. At that point it was only a matter of days before I felt like it was the same old mmo with a new format. If your coming to these threads looking for opinions on this game, whether negative or positive, these are mine. They did a great job with character story's and the leveling experience. Even if you are not new to the MMO experience you will enjoy the breath of fresh air there style of questing brings. The end game is more or less the same game play experience of warcraft. There are some issues like lack of looking for group tools, content currently available and so on, but in time I feel all that will be addressed. If years of warcraft or other MMO's have not burned you up on this style of end game then I feel you will enjoy it. I personally am tired of this style end game and wanted something a little different or more dynamic. Looks like I'm not alone on this.

[PjPablo]

Based on your numbers you played about 18.8 hours per week just on your BH so you are averaging over 2.5 hours per day.

 

And the average TOR player is playing 4 hours per day, 28 hours a week. Point?

[SpazeGoat]

I completely agree. Everything is way to strait-forward. You level way too fast. Then you run the same Flash-points for the same gear as everyone else. Then if you are lucky enough to have a good guild, you run Operations 2-3 times a week (only thing I still enjoy). Social points are a joke, I can't get to social 3 how will I ever get to social 10? Enjoyed PVP for about a week before it got old. Credits and crafting become practically worthless end-game. Space combat is a joke, complete dead-end. Rolled an alt, which is almost level 50. I definitely did not enjoy the conversation second time around. I can't see myself playing this game beyond the 3-months I payed for. There is no open-ended content at all. After I played WoW the first year it came out, I then swore off MMORPGs for YEARS because of all these reasons. Only broke my oath because I'm a Star Wars fan, now I'm beginning to think its all been a waste of time.

 

Who knows though, maybe this is what Bioware/EA intended. Get their money and get out. After-all its not about the players, its about money.

[Drewser]

And the average TOR player is playing 4 hours per day, 28 hours a week. Point?

 

The guy I quoted made this statement:

 

And we are 7 weeks from launch, with this player not playing for hours every day--- heck, not even playing every day.

 

Yet his own numbers provided in his post say something different. So he was either lying or didn't realize he was averaging over 2.5 hours a day on his main and also had another character level 22.

[Kosomok]

One of the key things that the OP hits upon is the game as a social network--and having game structures and activities that promote social networking. This is not necessarily the same thing as group play or forced grouping.

 

From my own experience, the stronger the social network that players build in a game, the greater their attachment to the game and the more time they spend in it. Most of this social networking does not revolve around leveling activities and it does not really exist in the lower level game--people are usually busy trying to make their way to the level cap.

 

The reality is that I do not group when leveling up (unless I happen to be duoing with my wife)--I don't really care about the Flashpoints or Heroics or the instances in other games like WoW or LotRO. I can easily reach level cap without ever setting foot in them--and probably more quickly than if I had spent substantial periods of time LFG. I don't really need the gear from these things either.

 

LotRO has a variety of activities that promote social networking--these are largely focused either on endgame activities (skirmish raids or daily quests) or "fluff" content like festivals (which are essentially grinds for tokens to buy gag items or mounts or housing and personal cosmetic items and are open to all levels). The content is fairly easy to easy and much of it serves to get people into social situations--and to move people from playing in 1 sector of the game (solo PvE to raiding, for example) by providing transitions.

 

The population tends to be more mature and social (in general) in LotRO, as well--PvP is very limited (takes place in the Ettenmoors between Players and Creeps (which are essentially evil races confined to the Ettenmoors, so it is essentially a separate leveling system) making the overall tenor of the game more cooperative and social in a positive aspect.

 

It has certain sandbox elements and a more developed endgame than SWTOR currently has (of course, it has been around longer and had more time to develop).

 

SWTORs issue at this stage is one of relative youth and lack of development. It is essentially a bare bones game with a limited endgame and no real social activities present other than grouping to do PvP or Flashpoints or Operations. It needs a wider variety of activities and activities that can be used to transition people willingly to other play styles.

 

My current issue with the game is that I got my JK to L 50 and then had no idea what to do--I still don't know what do do after more than a week at level cap. I don't PvP, no desire to--that isn't why I play these types of games... so, what do I do? Don't really feel like doing the instance grind for gear--I do that in LotRO and have a far greater investment in that game, given how long I have played it and my social network there--not really going to do anther gear grind in this game. Would like to level crafting, but don't really feel like grinding for cash or going out gathering on lower level planets.

 

basically, once I hit 50 there were no directions or vectors to any activities that I wanted to do.. or if there are, they are well hidden. Maybe there is something after I beat the Emperor (haven't done that yet, just not in the mood to face that irritating quest), but from what I hear, I doubt it.

 

Most of the interfaces are a PITA to use (yes, GTN, I am talking to you!).

 

Basically I just don't feel motivated to do anything with that character--so I am leveling alts to see the other class stories ATM.

 

As a form of entertainment, the game currently ends (IMO) when the class story ends... so I am waiting for new content. That's fine, I am patient about that as I have other things to do and games to play.. but they aren't going to get my money while I wait for the next big batch of content because they currently have nothing I want to do, once I level my current batch of alts up.

[LaManoNera]

The sad thing is, several developers from BW Austin actually agree with the OP. They've said in interviews that the "best" MMO is a balance between sandbox and theme park.

 

I guess they're referring to the MMO they'll make after TOR...?

[ActionJim]

wow you talk about failing to read your post lol i said "actually that is a EPIC FAIL for bioware. because its crappy game design....

 

i would like you to log into a MMO like EVE ONLINE... and try to "max out" a toon in 5 days....

 

I have played eve for 7 Years and i have not maxed out all the skills in the game.. and you know what due to outstanding game design it is not possable to ever max out every skill in the game. because they take a long time to max each seperate skill and there are 100's of them.

 

you are just making excuses for Bioware because they didnt have the forsight to see that people with no jobs and are on EI or what ever can play 18 hours a day and max out in 5 days because they have been playing MMO's for 15 years.

 

P.S. i work full time and i dont have a level 50 yet. but then again i split my time between eve and swtor so i dont have a level 50 toon right now.

 

My GF who is in school and has more time off then i already has 1 toon at 50 one at 40 and 2 more at who knows what levels.. and she is already board because she knows once her other toons reach 50. there will be next to nothing to do because she does not like to PVP much. And space combat is single player and well is fun for the first time you do it and then is a waste of time. "

 

The main point im trying to make is the game is to easy to get to level 50 as i have watched my girlfriend do it while she is in school full time and is only playing one MMO right now. I'm playing 2..

 

ANd not only is it to easy... but when you are level 50 there is not much to do.. and this is not only what my GF has observed and i through her... but the voice of many many people i know who all hav 50's and are back to playing eve.. or wow... or what ever other game they like to play..

 

If Bioware does not want to lose 1,000,000 people in the next 3 months.. they better add more End game content that can not be completed.. or leveled out.

 

Still not getting it. I guess I should have typed "one" instead of "you" so you understand that a person who plays 18 hours a day then complains it's too short is the problem. I understand you personally are not at level 50, even before your red bolded and bigger copypasta response.

 

Bioware should not have to design a game for someone who plays 18 hours a day. Sitting in a chair playing a video game for 18 hours a day isn't healthy, heck, even the few hours I squeeze in between work and other activities isn't healthy.

 

My point is, a person (not you, I get that you're not level 50 yet) shouldn't treat a game like a full time job, then expect it to last forever.

[PibbyPib]

There are innovative, sandbox MMORPGs out there right now-- you just don't play them.

 

The risk takers are, just as in movies, found among the smaller, more independent studios that build and maintain their games on a tiny fraction of the funds that places like Bioware or Blizzard spend.

 

Of course, their graphics are much less impressive. Their marketing is almost nonexistant. But they are out there, and if you really wanted to see innovation, you'd be playing one of those games.

 

When movies and games cost hundreds of millions of dollars to produce, you really can't fault the big studios for endlessly trying to reproduce the last big budget hit.

Edited February 7, 2012 by PibbyPib

[Grammarye]

The full loot pvp aside, think of what Mortal Online could have done with a 150 mil budget and 7 years to make it. (Mortal Online is a good example for this because they are still up after 2 years and have more features/dynamic content than Tor does with less than 1/10th the budget and backing.)

 

The sand box games never get the budget. Mostly that is the reason they fail usually. Lack of money for hardware, manpower, and development. What is the last BIG budget company that tried this? SWG is the only thing that came to mind. It set records, it lasted 8 years.. THROUGH one of the biggest MMO fiascos in history. So the ability to go at least SOME of this route is there and profitable.

As the developer of Minecraft would tell you, budget is rarely the issue in creating a good game, especially today in a world of indie developers & circumvention of the big publishers (other than mass marketing). The real problem is that in most cases, the game is actually pretty terrible, or appeals to only a given mindset, or just doesn't belong as an MMO. It's a rare combination that gets it all right.

 

The issue has never been that sandbox MMOs aren't profitable. CCP have been demonstrating that they are for seven years. What they aren't is massive bread winners. They aren't going to take home millions of subscribers; they often aren't viable as subs-based in the first place. If the majority of your game's activity is content creation, then what is the multiplayer aspect that justifies an MMO? It's either combined content creation (most of us call that work) or content destruction (i.e. PvP, blowing up what others have built, and so on). The rare MMO-like aspects of Minecraft pretty much fall into these areas. You'd never make Farmville or Angry Birds as an MMO.

 

If you're not careful, that leaves a legion of PvE players who are actually of the type who enjoy story & crafted content who look at your game and say 'well, I don't want to spend days building stuff and/or scripting stuff' or perhaps 'I don't want to do that and then have some jerk come along and blow up all my hard work'. Hence Minecraft's success. Notch never tried to make it as an MMO. He just made a simulator that people can use in a lot of different ways, mostly offline.

 

Take what is hopefully going to be a successful AAA MMO, GW2. There is very little content creation in GW2, but what they've done instead is say 'here is some dynamic content that can change according to what you do'. How well it works, we've yet to see, but I think that is the future of MMOs. Not theme-park. Not sandbox. Rather a blend that keeps the treadmill going in a way that satisfies both camps; you get to make an impact on the world, but it's down carefully laid railroad tracks. It gives the breathing room to add more rail to the railroad. There really isn't enough proof yet to say that it's a viable model, but it has potential.

[DARKLORDMAXIMUS]

Apples & oranges. The skill design in EVE is there for a reason. There are no classes and thus the skills must by definition be unachievable. If they were not, long term players could become wonderful at everything and have no need to enlist the assistance of others. It is in effect mutable classes. It promotes the multiplayer component of the game in the same way. Thus it is perfectly reasonable design to max out a given class when you are artificially limiting what that class can do.

 

EVE's design is arguably superior, but then one must have the intestinal fortitude to skill train & be patient. It's a tradeoff, and one that puts off players, but CCP accepted a low total subscriber base & factored that into their business plans.

 

SWTOR and EVE are apples and oranges for sure... but the reason why i think SWTOR should take an apple and a orange and make little appleorange babies... is because some of the things that eve lacks like having a toon that can actually do something out of his ship is a game design i like as well as the rich story and voice acting and the fact that it is in the starwars universe is something i want as well as many others.

 

But in this games current state with almost 0 end game.. This game will have no long term.. Even WOW is starting to reach its end.. for years it went up and up ... and now its going down... From 12 million to almost 10 in 3 months.. thats not a good sign... maybe they are all in this game with a mixed bag from others.. but the reason why most wow players i know moved from wow to this game was because they are sick of waiting for a patch for the same old crap with a new tier set for gear.. you can only gring out so many different sets of gear before your tired and done doing that.

 

In the end i will go back to EVE and others will go back to... (whatever they played before) if this game does not introduce something that players .. like the ones in EVE.. cant beat.. or cant pass because its designed not to..

 

In eve that star systems (space people take it over set up shop by building stations outpost ect.. and then when they think they are the bomb and are happy someone else wants there space and comes in and destroyes all they stuff and takes it.. or fails to do so after fighting that can take days weeks or months).

 

If SWTOR is an apple and eve is an orange .. the apple needs some orange...

 

And hell even eve could use some apple (they almost abandonded there toons because they intruduced them in a poor way). Because the toons cant really do anything but walk around in one room and click a few things... Because of this the toon development is on the back burner becuase people in eve want more space things fixed before they go messing around with toons more again.

[Code_Airwolf]

Ok while you are a compsci major, you have NOT seen markets and how things are in the real compsci world perse.

 

SOME of us old dog's been doing this since you were in grade school maybe I can safely say, while you may be working hard on this info and summary you still lack experience in this field. As a IT dir for a firm for 13 years and one that worked for MS for 5 prior, then 3 for intel doing side work I can safely say you do see some things but not all of them.

 

 

 

I was a doctor for 5 years, before that I was a NASA astronaut on several shuttle missions for 5 years (We had only one suit, Armstrong and I drew straws and he got to walk the moon). After that I was a marine biologist for 2 years, then I was a nuclear physicist for 3 years until I started growing extra limbs. After I performed surgery on myself to rectifiy that situation, I worked for a ballistic missile company for 4 years. After the "incident" I then worked for a motherboard manufacturing company and created mainboards for ballistic missile computers at the nuclear facility. Finally I was a pilot for a top secret military helicopter experiment, once that got a bit too dangerous I retired and became a Walmart greeter.

 

And so that's why I say I totally agree with you both and why my opinion actually counts.

 

Edited February 7, 2012 by Code_Airwolf

[Uben]

As the developer of Minecraft would tell you, budget is rarely the issue in creating a good game, especially today in a world of indie developers & circumvention of the big publishers (other than mass marketing). The real problem is that in most cases, the game is actually pretty terrible, or appeals to only a given mindset, or just doesn't belong as an MMO. It's a rare combination that gets it all right.

 

The issue has never been that sandbox MMOs aren't profitable. CCP have been demonstrating that they are for seven years. What they aren't is massive bread winners. They aren't going to take home millions of subscribers; they often aren't viable as subs-based in the first place. If the majority of your game's activity is content creation, then what is the multiplayer aspect that justifies an MMO? It's either combined content creation (most of us call that work) or content destruction (i.e. PvP, blowing up what others have built, and so on). The rare MMO-like aspects of Minecraft pretty much fall into these areas. You'd never make Farmville or Angry Birds as an MMO.

 

If you're not careful, that leaves a legion of PvE players who are actually of the type who enjoy story & crafted content who look at your game and say 'well, I don't want to spend days building stuff and/or scripting stuff' or perhaps 'I don't want to do that and then have some jerk come along and blow up all my hard work'. Hence Minecraft's success. Notch never tried to make it as an MMO. He just made a simulator that people can use in a lot of different ways, mostly offline.

 

Take what is hopefully going to be a successful AAA MMO, GW2. There is very little content creation in GW2, but what they've done instead is say 'here is some dynamic content that can change according to what you do'. How well it works, we've yet to see, but I think that is the future of MMOs. Not theme-park. Not sandbox. Rather a blend that keeps the treadmill going in a way that satisfies both camps; you get to make an impact on the world, but it's down carefully laid railroad tracks. It gives the breathing room to add more rail to the railroad. There really isn't enough proof yet to say that it's a viable model, but it has potential.

 

Sanbox does NOT have to translate into the ability to burn houses down or gank lowbies for gear. It can mean OTHER options. Including an option to have some rail riding for those who want to do that also.

[Emeda]

This isnt a theme park MMO, its one ride.

 

You get on the ride at level one and ride along the rail through all those planets and after 50 levels the ride ends and you can either go back on the same ride in a different colored car or do nothing.

 

A themepark has kiddie rides and big boy rides and other things to do if you dont like rides. SWTOR just has one ride and nothing else.

[DARKLORDMAXIMUS]

Still not getting it. I guess I should have typed "one" instead of "you" so you understand that a person who plays 18 hours a day then complains it's too short is the problem. I understand you personally are not at level 50, even before your red bolded and bigger copypasta response.

 

Bioware should not have to design a game for someone who plays 18 hours a day. Sitting in a chair playing a video game for 18 hours a day isn't healthy, heck, even the few hours I squeeze in between work and other activities isn't healthy.

 

My point is, a person (not you, I get that you're not level 50 yet) shouldn't treat a game like a full time job, then expect it to last forever.

 

ok lets meet in the middle .. ok i agree playing 18 hours a day is not really healthy.. but over all thats not my main point..

 

Even for someone like me who does not even play EVE for more then 1-2h a day if im lucky.. im still playing the game after 7 years because i cant beat it.. and i know i cant... i can get rich and more powerful and more skilled... but in the end i know i cant "win"

 

But and here is the big BUT.. when i get to level 50 in SWTOR i "win" and i can see it before im even there.. and also if others were to say "well your not there yet how do you know??" answer i know many people who have incl my girlfriend who sits beside me and says.. baby i think im going to go back to wow when the next patch comes out becuase im board of this game.. because i almost have 2 level 50's now.. and after being to the same planets and doing almost the same thing 2 times.. doing it 3 or 4 times is not end game.

Edited February 7, 2012 by DARKLORDMAXIMUS

[Emeda]

Still not getting it. I guess I should have typed "one" instead of "you" so you understand that a person who plays 18 hours a day then complains it's too short is the problem. I understand you personally are not at level 50, even before your red bolded and bigger copypasta response.

 

Bioware should not have to design a game for someone who plays 18 hours a day. Sitting in a chair playing a video game for 18 hours a day isn't healthy, heck, even the few hours I squeeze in between work and other activities isn't healthy.

 

My point is, a person (not you, I get that you're not level 50 yet) shouldn't treat a game like a full time job, then expect it to last forever.

 

Who are you to say how much time someone should do something. You just like riding on your tea cup go round and think everyone else should because those big roller coasters are dangerous and that cotton candy is bad for your health so they should only have your tea cup go round ride because its safe for all ages and screw what anyone else wants to do because they aint you.

[Code_Airwolf]

Who are you to say how much time someone should do something. You just like riding on your tea cup go round and think everyone else should because those big roller coasters are dangerous and that cotton candy is bad for your health so they should only have your tea cup go round ride because its safe for all ages and screw what anyone else wants to do because they aint you.

 

This post is approved by Insurance Agents, everywhere!

[Uben]

Sometimes wonder if D&D and the other PnP games were like what we now have in this genre, would this genre have ever taken flight to begin with..

[badsharkbad]

Great post

[Veluthurk]

Perhaps you should start your own thread and not hijack this one?

 

23. Multiple windows open.

[ActionPrinny]

Ok while you are a compsci major, you have NOT seen markets and how things are in the real compsci world perse.

 

SOME of us old dog's been doing this since you were in grade school maybe I can safely say, while you may be working hard on this info and summary you still lack experience in this field. As a IT dir for a firm for 13 years and one that worked for MS for 5 prior, then 3 for intel doing side work I can safely say you do see some things but not all of them.

 

Nice to have your perspective on SWTOR. Any other comments on what Bioware's done so far? I wanted to cut down on the wordiness of the initial post, so I didn't embellish fully on certain things of my argument.

 

Yes, I know that budgets, and suits, and other constraints will affect a product release. That's why I was picking at things that came down to UI design, and all the myriad little quality of life "bugs" that feel unfinished. Most recently for example -- how they can't seem to settle on an adequate GCD visual despite another revision. (The GCD effect now dramatically whites out all keys equally, which makes it very hard to tell what's in/out of range, what's on CD vs merely locked out by GCD, etc)

 

And I'm also a realist instead of an optimist -- I look at how people are actually using/going to use a system instead of the ideal. I try to sit down and go "if I was a new player, would I have any clue on how this mechanic works? How would navigating this menu system appear?" Etc.

[GalacticKegger]

"people burn through the leveling content in 5 days /played ".

When one actually thinks about that, and using 10 hours per day as a model: 5 days @ 10 hrs/day = 50 hours. So those players would be on pace to level up every 60 minutes ... faster if they played fewer than 10 hrs/day, and slower if they played more than 10 hrs/day. Beyond the first 13 levels, I find that truly remarkable. Edited February 7, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Grammarye]

But and here is the big BUT.. when i get to level 50 in SWTOR i "win" and i can see it before im even there.. and also if others were to say "well your not there yet how do you know??" answer i know many people who have incl my girlfriend who sits beside me and says.. baby i think im going to go back to wow when the next patch comes out becuase im board of this game.. because i almost have 2 level 50's now.. and after being to the same planets and doing almost the same thing 2 times.. doing it 3 or 4 times is not end game.

This I find fascinating. Genuinely. Why go back to WoW? It's the exact same experience. Do scripted content. Reach max level. Do more scripted content. Done everything? Nothing left to do that isn't repetition. The only distinction at all to be made at a game design level is that WoW has overall lots more to do (as it bloody well should after seven years) and fewer bugs (ditto). That's it. It's the same treadmill design.

 

Is the issue only that the treadmill is too short in TOR? Again, why go back to WoW? Is it familiarity? That warm Pavlovian feel of the familiar repetition because after years, well, it's all the brain knows? I'm not being critical; I just find it interesting that one grind of theme-park content is so much more favourable than another. What stops WoW from being boring?

 

I'm not going to disagree that in EVE there is this exponential curve instead of a straight line. The big factor that changes in EVE is that other players can make such a difference that your own game experience changes, whether it's prices on the market or someone blowing up half your POSes. That's a major distinction because it has a sandbox; the actual activities remain the same, but you can end up reprioritising them based upon others' actions. That I feel TOR is definitely lacking in some way, even abstract.

 

Note I'm not saying that in any of these cases that treadmill is a bad thing. If a day on the treadmill is an enjoyable experience and you come out of it feeling that your expenditure of time & money on the game was worth it, then that's all that matters - but I guess what I'm saying is that it seems all too easy to miss that the same repetition of activities, the same grind, is just being dressed up in different ways. I could describe the same about, say, World of Tanks progression.

 

Intriguing game discussions.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Grammarye