Pvp philsophy and the lack of well-reasoned forum discussion

[Zunayson]

I'm not sure how to respond to this other than you are wrong lol.

 

The statement: "True PVP Players are people who rely on skill to win" is straight up wrong. That is your OPINION of what a true pvp player is.

 

You could say something like "I only respect players who combat each other where the only contributing factor to the outcome is skill." Which is fine and I would back you on that. But your above statement is purely wrong.

 

PvP is literally and only a person(s) vs. a person(s). Everything else is a FORM of PvP.

 

"I only respect .... to the outcome is skill" is not an opinion. It is a statement by the poster to say he only respects ... blah blah blah. Another problem with the community may be that they don't understand the difference between opinions and otherwise. Opinions are not I think this is beautiful. Opinions are This is beautiful. I think this is beautiful may be a fact because the whole sentence is only describing that the speaker thinks it. This fact/statement is merely describing an opinion by stating it as such. Sentence that state things are known as statements, or otherwise declarative sentences when I think about it.

[BegaTasty]

What you describe is your OPINION of "real pvp". The definition of PvP is as the OP said, "Player vs Player". Anything where you have one or more player(s) vs one of more player(s) = pvp. PvP doesn't not assume skill level or global sized or anything.

 

What you say is only half of it. Why do you think they made warzones in order to "keep player retention"? World PvP as you call it is great, but it's rare. The barrier to entry for World PvP is too high for it to be viable. If players have to coordinate with 30 other people and travel to Ilum (or wherever) and tell the other team that hey we're going to be here at 9 so be ready, etc. etc., then there would rarely ever be world PvP. It's too much effort to coordinate, especially for those without hours on hours of time. Thus warzones organizes PvP for you so that you can PvP "immediately" without need for all the coordination and effort. It's just another medium of PvP just like Ilum.

 

If you took away warzones, World PvP wouldn't suddenly take flight. What would happen is everybody would quit lol. If players want to World PvP they are more than welcome to, there is nothing preventing them. The fact that it isn't happening and Tatooine is empty is pretty evident to the effort required to World PvP.

 

Basically it's just not that popular and doesn't happen often enough. The Idea is great, but the execution just doesn't happen.

 

 

 

Is that why you call it "Battlegrounds" instead of Warzones? Maybe if you didn't like WoW you should stop trying to turn SWTOR into WoW by calling it WoW terminologies.

 

Battlegrounds = warzones I dont play word games, there were battlegrounds years before wow.There is only one reason battlegrounds are so popular because its monumentally easy to farm shinys, an today's players want shinys over anything.The second you wave a free shiny in front of the gimmi generation they instantly jump on it, an you know that. World pvp is NOT organized an it never has been, that is the whole reason for world pvp because you just walk outside the instance farm an start killing reds.

 

I am only level 25 on my new IMP char, an I spent last night......world pvping, I killed 4 lvl 30s, 1 level 27 2 level 29, an 1 33, ya know how ? by using the world an terrain to my favor, be it killing the healer while group runs heroics so they all wipe (was massive fun to watch by the way), or punting people into mobs, or even bring higher levels in to kill someone I find who is obviously a BG farmer (eg I cant kill pvp gear farmers in quest gear)....

 

pvp happened an no planning needed.In over 300 kills on my rep JK I have yet to earn a single valor point, because bioware have made the game so you only get progression of any kind by farming BG's.

 

You say world pvp cant happen, ?? DAOC happened by the hundreds every day.

AC happened all day every day.

Vanguard pvp was a matter of survival

 

Fact is only reason world pvp is ignored now is because today's players wont do something unless there's a shiny at end.

[BegaTasty]

The reason it is considered real pvp is there is no artificial buffing by the system. To say artificial buffing still counts as pvp is like you claiming credit for the game winning touchdown just because you are a fan and they are 'your' team.

 

Well stated mate, your better with words than I am .. but that is bang on.

[BegaTasty]

True PVP players are people who rely on skill to win and test their skill vs others. Because when artiifical advantages are imposed meaninglessly and unfairly distributed the nature of PVP, competition, becomes continually diluted until it is no longer competition but instead a game of whack a mole.

 

Player vs Player, the concept, insinuates two or more people facing off on different sides with each having a significant chance to win. Other play styles have been defined over the years as extreme offshoots of PVP, such as ganking, greifing, and zerging.

 

 

PVP is competition. Competition by nature requires competitiveness. It's why you have the word competitive lol. If your not competitive than there is no competition and therefore no PVP.

 

The thing some of these lads dont want ppl to think about this.

 

In wow many years ago when BGs first came out, I did the farm to HWL twice .. it is simply a matter of running round an round an round spamming as many people as you can hit to gain points. It didn't matter of you won or lost, as long as you were there. Tor has simplified that even more by removing any need to even play, just sit an watch tv an you are showered in points. You really call that pvp ? you badly need an education in MMO pvp.

 

In world pvp you cant farm, you cant trade you cant spam you cant afk you cant do anything that doesn't involve YOU KILLING SOMEONE YOURSELF . Bioware dont want people to world pvp because to have a progression system for real pvp takes a massive amount of work. DAOC showed that you need to build a game from ground up to take advantage of pvp.

 

This idea that ppl dont want world pvp is less to do with the fact "world pvp sux brah" an more to do with the fact today's gamers MUST have shiny rewards....

[CommandoPower]

PvP is not competition, they are not synonymous. Competition is PvP, but PvP is not competition. Just like a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't a square.

 

Additionally, Mike Tyson vs. Stephen Hawking in a boxing match IS competition. Competition just means you are "competing" against someone else. Competition does not imply fairness, which you are inferring.

 

IF you want to go by literal definitions you would be right. It would also be completely pointless. However the word competition AS IT'S USED IN SOCIETY involves a significant chance of winning for everyone involved based on skill.

 

This is why in all of the competitions you see, there are rules and you see tiers of competition with relatively equal levels of skill competing in each tier. Corruption, politics, and cheating skews this, but I think we can agree those are outside influences.

 

Hence the word competitive. To be competitive you must be reasonably able to compete. IE have a reasonable chance at succeeding at whatever your competing at.

 

PVP cannot exist without being competition. Person vs person is automatically a competition between at least 2 people. If you change it from being a relatively even matchup other words are used such as ganking, griefing, exploiting, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

Back in the day, people had a little more honor and reputation mattered. People policed themselves and generally fought and competed for fun. Winning being a nice result and striven for, but not the goal in doing so. The goal was fun.

 

Today it's different. Their main goal is to win because we have been taught in the meantime that it's winning that's fun, and losing is for losers. Every pursuit that people have pursued for hundreds of years for both fun and profit has now become about winning and rewards. Everyone expects to be able to win if they put in more time than someone else.

 

 

 

 

I'm here to tell you that, both in life and in game, skill and heart should matter and in the long run it does. If your committed, if you love it, if your decent, you'll do well and have fun. If your here to win, your transient and will be at best temporarily satisfied. Your here today gone tomorrow. You'll be successful, for awhile. Then you'll fall because you undercut yourself. But you'll never blame yourself. It'll be everyone else. This is both life and game.

 

Meanwhile us old school people will see the cycle go full circle. You will live, you will learn. You will eventually become us . Then you'll be wondering why the new generation likes their shinies so much when it's all supposed to just be fun lol.

[CrunchyGremlin]

There are a few topics that seem to be pervasive around these forums, that warrant a more direct treatment than the tangential debates have yet to offer. I'll start with a few things:

 

1. There is no "real pvper". This is an example of the "no true scotsman" logical fallacy. The nature of pvp is mostly irrelevant. Any form of competition, even ones where players do not actively engage each other, is, in a sense, pvp. As long as one seeks to dominate the opponent, this is pvp.

 

2. Competition does not necessarily rely on equality. All the debates and bad sports analogies need to end. Athletes train to be physically superior before the contest ever begins, white always moves first in chess, and if you've ever played the card-game a-hole/scum, the "president" gets bonus cards for being president and starts first. If you ever played "king of the hill" as a child, the player on top has obvious advantages. SWTOR does NOT have to preserve equality. You are free to enjoy whatever type of game you wish, but recognize that there are a wide variety of competitions that deliberately incorporate inequality. For many players, this is FUN, both to dominate, and to win as the underdog.

 

3. The game is what it is. Given a set of rules R, maximize your wins. That is the only thing set in stone. If the next patch introduces new hoops, the competition will change. Your goal should be to maximize your wins, regardless of a changing ruleset. Many players mentally invent their own set of game rules, and then complain when their opponents take advantage of these opportunities. There is no point begrudging players these choices. If they got more datacrons, or battlemaster gear or whatever, be a good sport about it. In my opinion, your average player spends too much time blaming the framework, and not enough time trying to compete within that framework.

 

4. The best feedback, despite this forum's average tone, isn't rants, or whines, or assertions of what "real pvp" is or the way things "should be". Those things are meaningless. It is expressions of preferences. "I enjoy finding datacrons". "I dislike waiting for warzones". There is no point pretending to be objective, simply accept your bias, express yourself, and move on. "Champion token drop rates frustrate me", is a 100% valid, useful, and accurate piece of feedback. "Champion bags are broken, here is my anecdotal meaningless streak" is a loaded, and relatively useless whine only intent on generating more negativity.

 

 

5. Class balance isn't easy, nor obvious. It requires a detailed understanding of design objectives, and an exhaustive amount of real data to make any strong conclusions. This takes lots of time. Rest assured that nerfs and buffs will progress, albeit slowly. Howling for immediate sweeping changes is foolish and irresponsible.

 

6. A lot of good posts are drowned in barely literate trollsludge. What can we, as a community, do to bring the truth to the spotlight?

 

This is pretty well said.

market wars can be interesting PvP and in a game like eve can result in game combat.

 

Can not say i haven't done all of these things but its easy to get into that troll frame of mind.

That post hurt my feelings and I have to hit back!

It happens to most of us and moreso to the people that do not realize they do it.

 

Although I firmly believe there is nothing wrong with ideas for improvement. Open minds learn from criticism.

Edited February 7, 2012 by CrunchyGremlin

[Mertissielle]

Real PvP is EvE.

 

There is a reason there are less than 100k subs for EvE.

 

There isn't a reason for there being less than 100k subs because they have several times that amount. Sorry.

 

The OP made a great post - and unless your post was intended as some very well-hidden self-parody - it amuses me just how large a margin you appear to have missed the point by.

[Nukor]

I was beginning to doubt that the intelectual community would find there way into these forums. I often read here, simply for entertainment because I find complete nonsese rather funny.

 

What the OP has posted in this thread is quite true. PVP is nothing more than competition but it seems as though the MMO communities across the globe have lost sight of what competition is and feel that the only competition is "who can get geared the fastest".

 

Quite frankly it's fine if players want to compete against others in a race to the best gear set, this is legitimate pvp as both the opponent and objective are both clearly defined. I think the "problem" if you will, is that this game's community (for now anyway) is comprised mainly of players that feel the race to the best gear is the only competition to be had.

 

I for one, am greatly enjoying the challenge of being a new lvl 50 and getting smashed up within seconds in WZs. Last night as an example, hopping into a WZ and being labeled a noob before the game starts beause of my gear, ignoring the flamers and just playing the game, I was able to get 3 successfull knockback-peels at crucial moments resulting in 3 Huttball touchdowns that otherwise would not have happened, leading to a win for our side... for me this is PVP and is the true entertainment of competition as I find no satisfaction in completely destroying an opponent.

 

My hat goes off to you OP. We need more people like you in the forums. Perhaps if enough people begin to post more inteligible topics, I may one day peruse the forums not for entertainment, but for conversation and enlightenment.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Nukor

[-Tony-]

Bump....cuz I like it when learn'ed folks try to be all fancy and heard

[Anatharion]

This is quite simply untrue for an organized (AND INFORMED) underdog force. In DAOC and in WAR both without having any class advantages we used intel and coordinated tactics to defeat up to 3x our numbers consistently.

 

Eventually this begs a massive zerg of worse than those numbers, but it does not change the fact that in reasonably balanced Large scale PVP that organization and intel is just as important as numbers or player skill.

 

Almost without exception the larger side is far less coordinated and populated with less skilled players as well due to the nature of PVP mentalities.

 

 

 

The only place this breaks down is when they have a central point they can defend that you HAVE to take next to accomplish anything. Then it becomes a game of timing, misdirection, and guile. But if they are stubborn and camp it with superior numbers no matter what your pretty hosed. This led to the prevalence of "alarm clock raids" to catch the enemy when their defenses were weakest and their numbers the thinnest .

 

 

I've herded cats, all you need is the support of a few good players and people form into a natural chain of command on their own more or less. But this is only true in games that cater to teamwork, skill, and coordination. Games like this simply fight that mentality and encourage ramboing with their mechanics and rewards.

 

Edit: Just wanted to mention that you have to keep your "troops" constantly informed and reigned in or their impatience gets the better of them. Morale is important too. Even small victories make people want to stay, better tactics that make 3/4 of your group not want to stick around are NOT advantageous in the long run.

 

I love this guy. He speaks my language. I bet i've played WAR with him in the past without either of us knowing it.

Anatharion.

[ARMofGod]

Any form of competition, even ones where players do not actively engage each other, is, in a sense, pvp. As long as one seeks to dominate the opponent, this is pvp.

 

Wrong, and just plain stupid.

[-Tony-]

Wrong, and just plain stupid.

 

dude stop dissin....this is straight sticky content

[Anatharion]

I have quite enjoyed my time here in SWTOR. I subbed on day 1 of release and already there were guys level 30+ running around. I was intimidated by Warzones and only started going into them after my third day playing around level 24. At first there was one or 2 Imp level 50's. Sometimes we had pub lvl 50's. But suddenly within the first week the IMPs began to have 3/4 lvl 50's and most times we pubs only had 1. The gear desparity between the lvl 50 imps with Expertise Centurion and Champ gear was telling. Imps began to win 90% of all matches in Warzones. This meant they levelled far faster than we did on Pub side.

 

I'm a hardcore gamer and I stuck through it and did my best. I joined a guild, I had fun on vent, and we tried to form premades to stop the IMP's from facerolling us. But faceroll us they did. Finally I and a host of guild mates all got to lvl 50 in the same 2 weeks and we started to fight back.

 

Gear in SWTOR is a dominant feature of Warzone PVP. Gear is more important than skill level.

 

But beyond gear is your personal ability to have fun. To enjoy the game. Sometimes after losing matches for hours on end I would become discouraged, lose morale, and stop queing warzones. But sometimes, our team would focus on the objectives, we'd have enough equally geared players on our side to fight back and we would pull off a great victory. So those rare beautiful moments where we the Pubs won could make me feel so good that I would be willing to try to win a dozen matches to find that feeling of success again.

 

In the end It is not the race to have the best gear that should make you play this game. It's about the fun and the experiences you have getting there. I do like how BW is working on balancing out the classes. I play a Scoundrel Scrapper toon so i got hit hard by the nerf, but at least I know they are woking on evening out the playing field so we can all have a competitive chance to win.

[CommandoPower]

I love this guy. He speaks my language. I bet i've played WAR with him in the past without either of us knowing it.

Anatharion.

 

I'm an altaholic but the closest thing I had to a main was Anklegnawer . A melee spec Squig Herder who fought from inside his giant squig. Toughness spec'd and defensively maximized. Was nearly as tough as a tank and far from toothless, pardon the pun .

 

I led about 75-125 destruction against a superior order zerg before lol. Goodness knows how I ended up calling the shots, I was just giving advice and suddenly everyone was following it lol, but I somehow managed to keep the buggers in line and doing useful things. Though sometimes I threw in a few battles as a reminder for patience or to sate the blood lust lol.

 

Destroyed order till they showed up with a seemingly endless horde lol. Always flanked them, defended our keeps, took theirs, abused the objectives, etc.

 

We even used groups of volunteers as bait to hammer and anvil them a surprising amount of times lol. With a priority on rezzing the fallen bait, they deserved the rewards the most after all.

 

 

Intel above all else made all of that work. Kudos to every open world PVP stealth class that provides intel. THAT is your biggest impact on open world by far. No amount of kills will ever match that.

 

 

EDIT: That reminds me. Bait and intel should always be rewarded. Whenever possible you take care of these guys and if you can you hold off on your attack till they are in position to join. Good and effective work deserves appreciation. Not all important jobs are combat based and so don't get rewarded properly unless you make sure that it does.

 

People doing good work that get shut out of the rewards are less likely to continue doing that work as well

Edited February 7, 2012 by CommandoPower