ANALYSIS: Scoundrel is the Worst Class in the Game at Everything

[DunsparrowSolo]

Oh but it is easy to compare. Count the force armor as healing done, which it is directly equivalent to. The next steps are simple:

 

1) Run your healing rotation with a 50 sage for 10 minutes (including force armor) and record it with fraps.

2) Run your healing rotation with a 50 scoundrel who has the same stats as the sage for 10 minutes. Record that with fraps as well.

3) watch the recorded movies and note down exactly how much is healed (raw healing + absorbed through force armor) and compare them.

 

That's the way we do in the scientific world and it has worked out just fine for the last couple of thousand years - why should it all of a sudden not be a valid approach?

 

First off, Force Armor is better than healing. Its always better to prevent damage than it is to heal it, and that can't be quantified.

 

Second, PvP does not have rotations. Its about being versatile and able to keep targets alive. Scoundrel is by far the worst at it. Again, your ridiculous little test wont show that.

[DunsparrowSolo]

This is just my "gut feel" but it seems a bit unfair to compare the classes like this since there's a difference in play style between them.

 

My understanding is that Sages are the really good burst healers, they can take a guy from low health back up with their massive heals.

 

Scoundrels with the amount of HoTs and not as powerful heals keep a guy's health from getting to the point where the burst healing is necessary. Scoundrels are supposed to be more subtle than sages I think.

 

Commandos are somewhere in the middle.

 

I'm not sure if your statement is correct in that "Scoundrel is worst class in the game at everything" -- consider revising it to "Scoundrel is not the best class at anything" but there's still alot of utility in the class itself that merits its value.

 

Sages do better sustained healing than Scoundrels as well. Scoundrel HoTs are extremely weak.

[TatsuJim]

Sages do better sustained healing than Scoundrels as well. Scoundrel HoTs are extremely weak.

 

Hmm. I guess I'm going to have to concede this argument since I don't have any hard numbers to refute your data. Darn.

[Mr_Goss]

We may be ***t at everything, but at least we can kick somebody in the balls.

 

We're also the minority and I've always loved playing the least represented class in an MMO. My mantra is:

 

1. Learn the Scoundrel class
   
2. Pick a template that you're happy with
   
3. Get the gear and buffs you need
   
4. Kill the noobs before you
   

[Smashbrother]

First off, Force Armor is better than healing. Its always better to prevent damage than it is to heal it, and that can't be quantified.

 

Second, PvP does not have rotations. Its about being versatile and able to keep targets alive. Scoundrel is by far the worst at it. Again, your ridiculous little test wont show that.

 

And you're rant shows little and less, and you've yet to counter his argument that your simply ranting than actually proving something.

 

For example, you say commandos are great healers because they can heal while moving, and their aoe heal increases healing and reduces damage. First, that is entirely untrue. The 31 point talent may be instant but only heals for 1500 and has 21 sec CD. The aoe heal does inc healing done, but it's only 5%, but the dam reduction buff is only when we use our supercharged cells, which is not a constant. Our dam red shield is also on a 2 min CD.

 

A sage's force armor also cannot be used on the same target continuously, so if one target is getting FFed, force armor isn't the greatest thing ever.

 

So if you want to actually prove scoundrels are worst, show some numbers to back it up.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Smashbrother

[Findulidas]

I just ignore anyone claiming they have facts here and go for sith warrior instead where they atleast try to use numbers.

[vartius]

I am so sick of these "The sky is falling and its all because we are scoundrels!" posts. Classes will change over the life of a MMO. Adapt to the times because they are always changing.

 

I agree that our class seems underwhelming at times but this is a video game. If you aren't having fun, try one of the 7 other advanced classes schemes or do something else rather than whine on things out of your control.

 

I like the challenge of a difficult class and I still have those OMG I just kicked some major tail moments with my Scoundrel. We are high risk, high reward types. Roll a sorc/sage tracer/grav type if you don't like the life.

 

BW does log damage done in warzones and shows this damage at the end for all to see. I am usually in the upper half and have a ton more utility than FOTM classes.

Edited February 6, 2012 by vartius

[Skuishe]

Yeah, it just proves I know how to play a scrapper better than you I guess. I know how to get in, get my kill and get out so I can re-stealth and get back in for another kill.

 

 

Smugglers in general weren't ever meant to tank. So can't argue that point... Although that's like saying a Geo Metro is the worst car for a demolition derby.

 

Lol? It proves absolutely nothing. I've had warzones where I tripled the damage of the next person. Do I feel good about it? No. Because it just means I was playing unexperienced players with no gear.

 

Being the best high school basketball player in your district is nice, but it doesn't mean you can play D1 in college.

[Jahor]

BW does log damage done in warzones and shows this damage at the end for all to see.

Sorry but this damage and healing numbers mean nothing at all.

 

Playig with a shared tree spec throwing DoT all over will place me at 1 for damage done ... but it does not do enough to kill even a singel enemy. All it is good for is to interupt enemys from taking points or place bombs.

 

But this could be done with a 1 damage/tick DoT too.

[vartius]

No you can't have it both ways. The damage means nothing but stops objectives? The objectives are how you win warzones, not e-peen kill counts.

[ohnam]

No you can't have it both ways. The damage means nothing but stops objectives? The objectives are how you win warzones, not e-peen kill counts.

 

Yes but they don't get you the objectives either. Its just one aspect in a warzone but we all know wiping the other team to do the objective is the best strategy.

[Killabee]

Damage does not win Killing people does.

[TatsuJim]

Damage does not win Killing people does.

 

There are exceptions to this -- killing too many people can get really crippling for your huttball carrier. Survivability (whether alone or as a team) usually wins the game.

 

If they can't kill you, they won't be planting any bombs or capping any turrets.

[ohnam]

There are exceptions to this -- killing too many people can get really crippling for your huttball carrier. Survivability (whether alone or as a team) usually wins the game.

 

If they can't kill you, they won't be planting any bombs or capping any turrets.

 

You keep talking from the defender position, from the attacker position killing people leads to capturing or completing objectives.

[WallyRez]

Y

.. Although that's like saying a Geo Metro is the worst car for a demolition derby.

 

You just need to L2P

[Jahor]

There are exceptions to this -- killing too many people can get really crippling for your huttball carrier. Survivability (whether alone or as a team) usually wins the game.

 

If they can't kill you, they won't be planting any bombs or capping any turrets.

 

Huttball .... oh yes ... this minigame where nearly every class has a knockback or AoE knockback ... except Scoundrils .

 

No way to stop the enemy carrier if he isn't max 10 meter away from you :/. And Scoundrils are FAR to slow to get into this 10 meter range .

[utuwer]

I am so sick of these "The sky is falling and its all because we are scoundrels!" posts. Classes will change over the life of a MMO. Adapt to the times because they are always changing.

 

I agree that our class seems underwhelming at times but this is a video game. If you aren't having fun, try one of the 7 other advanced classes schemes or do something else rather than whine on things out of your control.

 

I like the challenge of a difficult class and I still have those OMG I just kicked some major tail moments with my Scoundrel. We are high risk, high reward types. Roll a sorc/sage tracer/grav type if you don't like the life.

 

BW does log damage done in warzones and shows this damage at the end for all to see. I am usually in the upper half and have a ton more utility than FOTM classes.

 

Difficult class is totally different from gimped one. BW nerfed burst of Sco/OP without any compensation for their sustain dmg. It makes me feel that they did not even test the class properly or worse, at all before making it live.

 

Since BW did not implement combat logs yet, this is 1st MMO that i have ever seen without a combat log(sound like they are trying to hide something from players ), we could not prove anything much but base on our feelings and experiences while playing different classes.

 

But the truth is with same gear other classes are out-performing Sco/OP. You cannot deny the population of a specific class does not tell how well the class is, compared to others. For example, number Sorc/Sage is far more than anything else. In Rift, the same thing happens when some classes become FoTM, Pyromancer, Paragon, RiftBlade, Maskmen,etc. People always tend to play the dominant classes.

 

For some reason, SWTOR class imabalance issue is just as same as Rift. Mage/Priest type dominates, while rogue type is completely underpowered in every aspect (In 5 months). Guess history just repeats itself. I hope it would not take 5 months to fix Sco/OP so that people would not get used to consider Sco/OP as a free valor, then they would ragequit after Sco/OP being brought back to the line.

[Laran]

Yes it was overpowered for scoundrels/ops to hit you for 5k+ from stealth yet it is not overpowered for a jedi knight to run around the one day after hitting 50 getting 7k aoe crits on multiple people?

[Killabee]

Yes it was overpowered for scoundrels/ops to hit you for 5k+ from stealth yet it is not overpowered for a jedi knight to run around the one day after hitting 50 getting 7k aoe crits on multiple people?

 

You sir understand.

[Corran]

While I like your enthusiastic approach to the "analysis", you are lacking proof in just about every point you make. What you say is based on gut feelings and you presented no data to support your theories.

 

I would love to see this document with actual numbers on it, and I'm not talking about the average value of five heals, I'm talking about a thorough piece of work with data gained from ~10 minutes of using the best healing rotation on one character and then the same done by another healing character with stats exactly the same as the first one or any numbers presented is rubbish.

 

Repeat this with all your points and I will respect your work. Until then you're just another troll in my eyes (and anyone with any sense of reason and logic).

 

In the coming week I will post an analysis of scoundrel healing differences in PvE and PvP, so you can see what I mean.

 

 

edit: grammar >.<

 

he doesn't need proof if you would just roll the other classes and see for yourself

 

i have a 50 vanguard, 50 sage, 50 scoundrel. i have a soon to be 50 guardian. my guardian already force sweep crits for nearly as much as my scoundrel shoot first crits for - and force sweep is a bloody aoe that he can do every 9 seconds.

 

in a few pieces of dps gear my vanguard hits 4k assault plastique and high impact bolt crits in pvp and pve. and dont get me started on my sage. yes she's cat food to marauders and juggs who outgear her, but if left alone the damage she puts out is disgusting especially a pom tk wave.

 

i've got a late 30's sniper now. even with the fact they do mostly a damage type that can be shielded in pvp and requires more accuracy in pve, if you want to be a smuggler and dps pick gunslinger.

[Zlashie]

the initial idea of the Scrapper was to have a burst dps class to the tables who could turn the tides of a battle by removing a target or heavily damage a target.

 

then came the selective few who decided to stack surge and crit, top it with their surge/crit trinket, and mix it wit the biochem buffs and to top the icing they would also take the +15% expertise buff in order to gain absurd numbers and crit for very high.

 

When this became knoledge, more and more scoundrels/operatives began doing it and all people saw was jump in "knife you three times" and your dead.

 

So people went on the forum and complained about the damage. they said "Scrapper is too much damage". as a result, they nerfed the damage of the scrapper.

 

the huge flaw of this is that they now reduced our damage to below the shadow WITHOUT giving us the same utility which the shadow has, in order to survive, which gives us this gimped situation were we dont ahve the damage nor have the survivability/utility to kill equal people.

 

The facepalm of this is that the scoundrels/operatives who still does the above stacking of various crit/surge mechanics can still manage to 3-4 shot you, but only if he crits on everything.

 

So this initially mean that Bioware only nerfed the PvE capeabilities of the scrapper insted of actually fixing the problem.

And here is the kicker: If other classes did the same effort to get high crits, they would manage to get same results: kill people in a few hits.

 

So in reality bioware are nerfing a class based on bad game mechanics.

 

In my opinion there shouldnt be random health/speed/expertise buffs around the warzones. It just makes WZs frustrating. Especially since the scrapper doesnt have the knockback to support it.

 

They should also remove "Reusable" biochem stuff: Because it destroys the ability to make money off the Market and turns biochem into a raid favorite because its a huge moneysavor.

 

Finally they should buff our damage to higher than before BUT reduce the scrapper talent that gives us 30% critial multiplier so that our base damage is high but our crits arnt massive.

 

No I dont want to be Overpowered. I want to be balanced and also have the ability to do PvE without having crap sustained damage compared to all other classes.

 

*Hopes his class will get the buff it needs*

Edited February 7, 2012 by Zlashie

[TheGank]

You hit the nail on the head nice post. What biofail failed to understand is all we had was a burst opener, we are a one trick pony that's us plain and simple.

 

The 1.1.1 nerf was crazy over the top, players stacking consumables in champ and BM gear while warzoning lev 10-49 players in greens killed us off.

 

So what have we learned about the new kids on the MMO block, SIMPLE!...Biofail demonstrated to the community how they go about nerfs, we have no idea what we are doing but this should help a little...here you go scrappers take that in the backside.

[SAGAY]

Ahh, another "My class XXX can't do exactly the same thing as another class XXX" post.

[DunsparrowSolo]

Ahh, another "My class XXX can't do exactly the same thing as another class XXX" post.

 

Except not that at all. Go fill your diaper elsewhere, troll.

Edited February 7, 2012 by DunsparrowSolo

[karcyon]

snap

This sums it up nicely! Good post!

Edited February 7, 2012 by karcyon