No one will remember if a game is late, only if it's great.

[djsmileey]

The few people in this thread bashing wow mean nothing compared to wow's massive number of subs. The people who get paid to highlight flaws in the game will do exactly what they are paid to do. The massive amount of people enjoying the game don't waste their time in forums bashing the game.

 

I argue from my experience of numerous friends playing every class with no problems for days on end. There was definately overload, causing excessive queue times and disconnects, so there was certainly that issue, and there were certainly some bugs. I'm not arguing that.

 

I didn't argue that wow had a flawless release. My entire argument is that wow was more polished on release than any mmo to date, and I stand by that. Not by some nebulous feeling, or some wierd love for wow, but from the experience of playing the game extensively with multiple people both through the stress test betas and release.

 

I do understand that varying people may have varying problems, but if there were that many problems I would have consistenly heard complaints from the people I was playing with. And the fact is that we played relentlessly with very few problems. Pretty much loot lag and queues were our only beef with the game, and those two issues have nothing to do with polish.

 

Yes, you are correct in saying that launch =/= subs. Try to remember though, WoW didn't attain most of it's subs until closer to TBC.

 

I didn't argue that wow had a flawless release. My entire argument is that wow was more polished on release than any mmo to date, and I stand by that. Not by some nebulous feeling, or some wierd love for wow, but from the experience of playing the game extensively with multiple people both through the stress test betas and release.

 

Splitting hairs, if you read over your statements, it's very clear you try and make it seem like it had a flawless launch. Coming back and twisting the words to suit your argument doesn't make you right.

 

I dont' agree with you at all. TOR had a much better launch, and there have been other games with a more smooth launch than WoW. Just not as grande in every case.

 

What is your point anyway? WoW had a relatively smooth launch for it's time? So what?

Edited February 6, 2012 by djsmileey

[PinkSugar]

...Splitting hairs, if you read over your statements, it's very clear you try and make it seem like it had a flawless launch. Coming back and twisting the words to suit your argument doesn't make you right.

 

 

 

You should really stop now. If the man came back and clarified what he was really trying to say then why do you continue to make it seem otherwise?

 

what he said might have "seemed" that way because that's how you perceived it. Thats your own fault...not his....

 

You are not in his head. You don't know what he was thinking. He said what he meant so take it for what it is and stop playing Judge Judy....

 

You people kill me...

Edited February 6, 2012 by PinkSugar

[djsmileey]

Don't pay attention to the delusional.

 

The REAL million dollar question here is how much time did Blizzard spend on developing World of Warcraft?

 

People forget that this game was under development for quite some time. With that being the case, many of the issues that existed upon launch and still to this day should have never existed! It's utterly not excusable!

 

I find myself asking, "What in the world were they doing all that time"?

 

In essence, for those who think that the game is great in the state that it is in, then I am happy that you have found something to spend your hard earned (or not so hard earned) money on. However, for people like me...I feel as though this game could have and should have brought more considering the Genre it is in and the time that went into creating it before its launch.

 

I suppose everything is relative. I am a seasoned gamer myself, and my fiance is a professional gamer. We can honestly say that this game will not keep our attention very long.

 

No doubt the game isn't for everyone.

 

Delusional? Hardly, just check out some of the WoW Vs. TOR Threads, you will see plenty of sources on bad launch juju.

 

Denying the game had a pretty rough launch is the real illusion here.

[djsmileey]

You should really stop now. if the man clarified what he was really trying to say then why do you continue to make it seem otherwise?

 

what he said might have "seemed" that way because that's how you perceived it. Thats your own fault...not his....

 

You are not in his head. You don't know what he was thinking. He said what he meant so take it for what it is and stop playing Judge Judy....

 

You people kill me...

 

So you didn't actually read the post.

[PinkSugar]

No doubt the game isn't for everyone.

 

Delusional? Hardly, just check out some of the WoW Vs. TOR Threads, you will see plenty of sources on bad launch juju.

 

Denying the game had a pretty rough launch is the real illusion here.

 

You are missing the POINT!

 

How long was World of Warcraft under development???

 

If you can research that and tell me that it was under development for 4 or more years before its release then I will give an apology and grovel at your internet feet.....

 

This game had MORE than enough time to be polished. THAT is the point. It has absolutely nothing to do with where WoW was at launch. It's the plain and simple fact that this GAME has the SAME ISSUES that WOW had on LANUCH if not MORE and was under development A LOT LONGER THAN ANY OTHER GAME!!!!

 

 

DO YOU GET IT NOW!? DO I HAVE TO TYPE IN CAPS FOR YOU TO COMPREHEND!!??

Edited February 6, 2012 by PinkSugar

[djsmileey]

You are missing the POINT!

 

How long was World of Warcraft under development???

 

If you can research that and tell me that it was under development for 4 or more years before its release then I will apologies and grovel at your internet feet.....

 

This game had MORE than enough time to be polished. THAT is the point. It has absolutely nothing to do with where WoW was at launch. It's the plain and simple fact that this GAME has the SAME ISSUES that WOW had on LANUCH if not MORE and was under development A LOT LONGER THAN ANY OTHER GAME!!!!

 

 

DO YOU GET IT NOW!? DO I HAVE TO TYPE IN CAPS FOR YOU TO COMPREHEND!!??

 

When people get this angry, it's usually because they have nothing to actually say, and resolve to yelling and name calling.

 

but to emphasize your point: "This game had MORE than enough time to be polished. THAT is the point. It has absolutely nothing to do with where WoW was at launch. It's the plain and simple fact that this GAME has the SAME ISSUES that WOW had on LANUCH if not MORE and was under development A LOT LONGER THAN ANY OTHER GAME!!!!"

 

I will respond:

It doesn't matter what WoW did, It never has. TOR Had a great launch, and has problems, just like EVERY SINGLE MMO that has EVER come out before it.

 

You don't seem to understand that the massive POINT you are trying to make means jack ****. WoW Has insane issues STILL with the game, and so does EVERY OTHER MMO OUT THERE. So your point is invalid, if everyone has the same problem, you can't exactly blame one company for it

Edited February 6, 2012 by djsmileey

[daeseer]

You are missing the POINT!

 

How long was World of Warcraft under development???

 

If you can research that and tell me that it was under development for 4 or more years before its release then I will give an apology and grovel at your internet feet.....

 

This game had MORE than enough time to be polished. THAT is the point. It has absolutely nothing to do with where WoW was at launch. It's the plain and simple fact that this GAME has the SAME ISSUES that WOW had on LANUCH if not MORE and was under development A LOT LONGER THAN ANY OTHER GAME!!!!

 

 

DO YOU GET IT NOW!? DO I HAVE TO TYPE IN CAPS FOR YOU TO COMPREHEND!!??

 

Wow. Yes, yelling will win you the argument.

 

The amount of polish that this game, and any other game, had at launch is a very subjective thing. Consequently, people may disagree with you. Learn to deal with it.

[Marlaine]

When people get this angry, it's usually because they have nothing to actually say, and resolve to yelling and name calling.

 

You've been trolling for the last 10 pages of this thread. It's pretty easy to get angry at you.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Marlaine

[Rohke]

TOR is a great game and ive said this on numerous occasions. However when put into the context of its genre its actualy quite poor for an mmo.

[PinkSugar]

When people get this angry, it's usually because they have nothing to actually say, and resolve to yelling and name calling.

 

but to emphasize your point: [b"]This game had MORE than enough time to be polished. THAT is the point. It has absolutely nothing to do with where WoW was at launch. It's the plain and simple fact that this GAME has the SAME ISSUES that WOW had on LANUCH if not MORE and was under development A LOT LONGER THAN ANY OTHER GAME!!!!"[/b]

 

I will respond:

It doesn't matter what WoW did, It never has. TOR Had a great launch, and has problems, just like EVERY SINGLE MMO that has EVER come out before it.

 

You don't seem to understand that the massive POINT you are trying to make means jack ****. WoW Has insane issues STILL with the game, and so does EVERY OTHER MMO OUT THERE. So your point is invalid, if everyone has the same problem, you can't exactly blame one company for it

 

Who said I was yelling? I am not yelling. At least nobody in my presence would say that I am yelling? I was simply typing in caps because I was under the impression that perhaps you were farsighted or something.

 

"TOR Had a great launch, and has problems, just like EVERY SINGLE MMO that has EVER come out before it."

 

• BEFORE, is the key word here. Those games launched back in early 2000's. It is 2012. From my perspective, this game shouldnt have these SIMPLE bugs.
  
• With all the examples of effective PvP systems out there, they could have come up with a better one.
  
• I seriously doubt that any MARKET research was done...at least not extensive market research to see what works.
  

 

Yes, MMO's in the Past (Keyword, PAST) has had problems. However, MMO's in the Future (Keyword Future) should not have those same issues. The idea is to progress.

[BrandonSM]

You've been trolling for the last 10 pages of this thread. It's pretty easy to get angry at you.

 

I have to agree. Even though I was on opposite sides when it came to talk about WoW's polish on launch day. But that arguement has finished, djmissel, your just plain trolling now.

[djsmileey]

You've been trolling for the last 10 pages of this thread. It's pretty easy to get angry at you.

 

Not one single post could be construed as trolling.

[Saerith]

Every game released continues to have bugs. What games don't get patched post-release?

 

I think we're going to see extensive patches coming in the next two or three months to fix many of the issues that have been brought up. Some of them are quite pressing (Ilum memory leaks, Ilum PVP in general), and others less so. I'll eat my socks if most of the big issues in the game aren't fixed by, let's say, April. Well, not really, but I'll still be very surprised.

 

Some other thoughts: don't say most of the hardcore players have gone back to their previous games. My guild came over from Rift, and only a few people out of dozens have stopped playing in the past month. Many of us are enjoying KP and EV hard & nightmare modes, and even Ilum & warzone PVP can be very exciting at times, at least when its balanced.

 

Since we're expecting a total of 5 level 50 operations by summer, I think we're all going to have plenty to do. At this point, I'm okay with the current level of content and very pleased with the upcoming patches (1.2-1.5). As long as Bioware addresses (at least) most of the bugs, I'll be very happy with the game for at least the next year.

[Hamsterkill]

Who said I was yelling? I am not yelling. At least nobody in my presence would say that I am yelling? I was simply typing in caps because I was under the impression that perhaps you were farsighted or something.

 

"TOR Had a great launch, and has problems, just like EVERY SINGLE MMO that has EVER come out before it."

 

• BEFORE, is the key word here. Those games launched back in early 2000's. It is 2012. From my perspective, this game shouldnt have these SIMPLE bugs.
  
• With all the examples of effective PvP systems out there, they could have come up with a better one.
  
• I seriously doubt that any MARKET research was done...at least not extensive market research to see what works.
  

How about listing some more effective PvP systems out there and how you would have implemented them into this game.

 

And unless you have some shred of evidence to support that market research comment, I'm going to laugh at you.

 

Yes, MMO's in the Past (Keyword, PAST) has had problems. However, MMO's in the Future (Keyword Future) should not have those same issues. The idea is to progress.

 

So what you're waiting for is the Holy Grail of MMOs? The sole messiah of games? The one massive drop of perfection in an imperfect world?

 

Good luck.

[Tewnam]

Who said I was yelling? I am not yelling. At least nobody in my presence would say that I am yelling? I was simply typing in caps because I was under the impression that perhaps you were farsighted or something.

 

"TOR Had a great launch, and has problems, just like EVERY SINGLE MMO that has EVER come out before it."

 

• BEFORE, is the key word here. Those games launched back in early 2000's. It is 2012. From my perspective, this game shouldnt have these SIMPLE bugs.
  
• With all the examples of effective PvP systems out there, they could have come up with a better one.
  
• I seriously doubt that any MARKET research was done...at least not extensive market research to see what works.
  

 

Yes, MMO's in the Past (Keyword, PAST) has had problems. However, MMO's in the Future (Keyword Future) should not have those same issues. The idea is to progress.

 

There hasn't been a 10-year gap with no MMO releases. There have been MMOs since WoW. Also, you obviously have no idea what determines the complexity of a bug. Some things are simple. Some things only appear simple. With millions of lines of code that interact, a bug can get introduced in a very unlikely place that doesn't cause any end-user complications until much further down the chain.

[Marmerus]

So what you're waiting for is the Holy Grail of MMOs? The sole messiah of games? The one massive drop of perfection in an imperfect world?

 

Good luck.

No but we expect the game to work better than early any early beta. The ability delay and unresponsive gameplay ruins a lot for me. Things like that should never had made it out of the beta and into the game no matter how complicated the problem is.

[Faytte]

WoW was created with technology from 1999-2004. It was first announced in 2001. Since it followed the story of WC3 (release 2002) and its expansion, its hard to think that much of the development had been done before WC3 was released.

It had a much smaller budget (63 M http://digitalbattle.com/2006/06/15/world-of-warcraft-cost-63-million/)

It had a much smaller team

WoW decided to create their own Engine

The game still was wildly loved at the time. Its launch issues were a moot point, at that time in history all mmo's had tons of technical issues.

 

 

Comparing a game made in 2012 with 200M and untold years is ridiculous.

BW had longer to develop the game

BW had modern technology

BW choose to not make their own engine, but instead licensed a pre built one and modified it, which theoretically would have saved them time.

 

Lets make a fairer comparison

http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/41586/World-of-WarCraft-Costs-200-Million-to-Maintain

If you include in dev fees, WoW would be ahead here sure in cost, but this is far more apples to apples.

 

At 2010 what did WoW Have?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Warcraft:_Cataclysm

Thats a 2010 release

 

Compare the feature sets/content/etc in Cata to SWTOR? Not a comparison. Sure, maybe thats unfair.

 

You could go back to 2008 for Wrath of the Lich King. Again, WoW handilly beats swtor. And if you go back to 2008, I'm pretty sure the total cost of WoW is gonna be near 200M (although I have no way to prove this, but if 2010=200M + 68M upstart, I can presume the game runs them about 30M a year to run, so 2 years should cover the initial costs portion).

 

 

I ask..where is all the money in SWTOR?

 

Level Design? Majority of the game is indoor looking at crate farms. While there are some lovely mountains..you cant get to them. They are painted off in the distance. In WoW if you can see it..you can fly to it/climb it/etc.

 

SWTOR is full of invisible /visible walls cutting apart areas. You cant swim, and in general the areas feel clastrophobic. How is that immersive?

 

How about the talent/class system? Its a 100% rip off of WoWs design. Look at half the abilities of the sith warrior. Its just reskinned WoW.

[PinkSugar]

How about listing some more effective PvP systems out there and how you would have implemented them into this game.

 

And unless you have some shred of evidence to support that market research comment, I'm going to laugh at you.

 

 

 

So what you're waiting for is the Holy Grail of MMOs? The sole messiah of games? The one massive drop of perfection in an imperfect world?

 

Good luck.

 

Hello Hamster kill. Well, let's see if I can answer your question.

 

One of the reasons why I "assume" that little to no Market research was done on the PvP system is because many of the Hardcore PvP'rs on my server have already unsubscribed for one. Let's talk PvP Rentention Rate shall we!?

 

If I were to make an MMO that was to include a PvP system, I would have researched and implemented the elements that have proven to keep players coming back for more.

 

What would I include you ask? Well, for one I am not going to Entertain that question because I am most certainly sure that you would just come back with a Troll response for the sake of trolling.

 

I will just simply say that the current system is not a system that "Keeps PvP'rs coming back". No never mind the bugs. The system itself is stale, boring, and redundant.

 

Moving along...

 

Am I looking for the "Holy Grail" of MMO's? *laugh* First, I would like to mention for the sake of your argument that I don't believe in a "Holy Grail". Nothing in this life including a game will ever be perfect (is my philosophy).

 

However, considering the mistakes that MMO's and developers in the past have made, it would behoove future companies to investigate those mistakes so that they do not make the same ones. Further more, they should also investigate/implement the elements that draws/sucks gamers in. Of course those elements will vary from Gamer type to Gamer type.

 

The fact still remains that I can probably count on one hand (Of course I am exaggerating here) how many hardcore PvP'rs are actually happy with the current PvP system, especially since we were promised that this was going to be the best PvP system seen in an MMO yet. Great for marketing, terrible for actual retention.

 

At the end of the day, everything is a matter of perception. For those of you who like the game in its current state...I am happy for you. But, don't try to beat those of us down who are not happy with it and who expect more from it because we know that more can be done.

Edited February 6, 2012 by PinkSugar

[Tewnam]

WoW was created with technology from 1999-2004. It was first announced in 2001. Since it followed the story of WC3 (release 2002) and its expansion, its hard to think that much of the development had been done before WC3 was released.

It had a much smaller budget (63 M http://digitalbattle.com/2006/06/15/world-of-warcraft-cost-63-million/)

It had a much smaller team

WoW decided to create their own Engine

The game still was wildly loved at the time. Its launch issues were a moot point, at that time in history all mmo's had tons of technical issues.

 

 

Comparing a game made in 2012 with 200M and untold years is ridiculous.

BW had longer to develop the game

BW had modern technology

BW choose to not make their own engine, but instead licensed a pre built one and modified it, which theoretically would have saved them time.

 

Lets make a fairer comparison

http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/41586/World-of-WarCraft-Costs-200-Million-to-Maintain

If you include in dev fees, WoW would be ahead here sure in cost, but this is far more apples to apples.

 

At 2010 what did WoW Have?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Warcraft:_Cataclysm

Thats a 2010 release

 

Compare the feature sets/content/etc in Cata to SWTOR? Not a comparison. Sure, maybe thats unfair.

 

You could go back to 2008 for Wrath of the Lich King. Again, WoW handilly beats swtor. And if you go back to 2008, I'm pretty sure the total cost of WoW is gonna be near 200M (although I have no way to prove this, but if 2010=200M + 68M upstart, I can presume the game runs them about 30M a year to run, so 2 years should cover the initial costs portion).

 

 

I ask..where is all the money in SWTOR?

 

Level Design? Majority of the game is indoor looking at crate farms. While there are some lovely mountains..you cant get to them. They are painted off in the distance. In WoW if you can see it..you can fly to it/climb it/etc.

 

SWTOR is full of invisible /visible walls cutting apart areas. You cant swim, and in general the areas feel clastrophobic. How is that immersive?

 

How about the talent/class system? Its a 100% rip off of WoWs design. Look at half the abilities of the sith warrior. Its just reskinned WoW.

 

Vanilla WoW didn't follow the story of WC3. The storyline set in WC3:TFT wasn't followed up until the Burning Crusade expansion.

 

You're speculating on the development time. Many of their launch issues could have been alleviated by a larger development team. A smaller team isn't always a good thing. I thought SWToR released in 2011, not 2012.

 

You're stretching about the "talent/class ripoff". MMOs and other games prior to WoW used similar systems. Heck, Diablo II used a skill-tree system and basic forms of the resource systems that you see in WoW, and that was four years prior. Dark Age of Camelot didn't have skill points to distribute, but did have three distinct paths for each class. I believe EQ2 had a similar talent system to WoW and released around the same time. I don't know about EQ or earlier games, as I played several MUDs, which had been using skill-trees and various resource systems for years.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Tewnam

[djsmileey]

I ask..where is all the money in SWTOR?

 

I don't ask.

 

I ask:

Am I having fun? Check

Do I enjoy this game? Check

Are they releasing more content? Check

Are they fixing bugs? Check

Does it have a player base big enough to make a profit? Check

 

Does it matter how well it does in comparison to WoW? NOPE!

Does the amount of money they spent designing the game determine my level of enjoyment? NOPE!

Will the game fail* to impress me even if the forums (GENERALL DISCUSSION) thinks otherwise? NOPE!

 

You want to talk about moot points...

Edited February 6, 2012 by djsmileey

[Marmerus]

How about the talent/class system? Its a 100% rip off of WoWs design. Look at half the abilities of the sith warrior. Its just reskinned WoW.

Half?

 

http://auditorydepredation.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/1326231905169.jpg

[Hamsterkill]

Hello Hamster kill. Well, let's see if I can answer your question.

 

One of the reasons why I "assume" that little to no Market research was done on the PvP system is because many of the Hardcore PvP'rs on my server have already unsubscribed for one. Let's talk PvP Rentention Rate shall we!?

 

If I were to make an MMO that was to include a PvP system, I would have researched and implemented the elements that have proven to keep players coming back for more.

 

What would I include you ask? Well, for one I am not going to Entertain that question because I am most certainly sure that you would just come back with a Troll response for the sake of trolling.

 

I will just simply say that the current system is not a system that "Keeps PvP'rs coming back". No never mind the bugs. The system itself is stale, boring, and redundant.

 

Moving along...

 

Am I looking for the "Holy Grail" of MMO's? *laugh* First, I would like to mention for the sake of your argument that I don't believe in a "Holy Grail". Nothing in this life including a game will ever be perfect (is my philosophy).

 

However, considering the mistakes that MMO's and developers in the past have made, it would behoove future companies to investigate those mistakes so that they do not make the same ones. Further more, they should also investigate/implement the elements that draws/sucks gamers in. Of course those elements will vary from Gamer type to Gamer type.

 

The fact still remains that I can probably count on one hand (Of course I am exaggerating here) how many hardcore PvP'rs are actually happy with the current PvP system, especially since we were promised that this was going to be the best PvP system seen in an MMO yet. Great for marketing, terrible for actual retention.

 

At the end of the day, everything is a matter of perception. For those of you who like the game in its current state...I am happy for you. But, don't try to beat those of us down who are not happy with it and who expect more from it because we know that more can be done.

 

Again, please provide some examples of these elements that keep you hardcore PvPers coming back for more. I can't care about you if you don't actually know what you want.

[djsmileey]

 

At the end of the day, everything is a matter of perception. For those of you who like the game in its current state...I am happy for you. But, don't try to beat those of us down who are not happy with it and who expect more from it because we know that more can be done.

 

The same can be said about you.

 

I'm sorry to hear that you don't enjoy the game, but don't beat the rest of us down because we like the game. You would rather spend all day in the forums talking trash about the game, instead of using the games proper channels for making suggestions.

 

You claim you have a vested interest, but all you do is *****. People who want a game to succeed give it constructive criticism, not ultimatums and comparisons to tired games.

Edited February 6, 2012 by djsmileey

[Souvarr]

Half?

 

http://auditorydepredation.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/1326231905169.jpg

 

Ok this is beyond annoying anymore. You and other act like the classes are carbon copy of WoW class. If so where the Trooper in WoW, where the Smuggler. I play a Shadow Jedi, and they don't feel like a Rogue and in fact the talent tree have very little in common. You found one class and said it represent all. No you found one class that is very hard to make it like anything else.

[Vlaxitov]

I'm sorry to hear that you don't enjoy the game, but don't beat the rest of us down because we like the game.

 

Its all part of a bitter crowd that got duped into being addicted to something they don't actually like. Thats blizzard's gift to the MMORPG genre that keeps on giving just like herpes.