Why all the hate on AP?

[Yogurta]

Yesterday I tried playing AP just to try it out. Mind you I'm only lvl39 on my Powertech.

 

Damage wise, the charts have shown no decrease in comparison to Pyro.

I definitely felt more mobile due to speed increase and Hydraulic override talent.

 

Flame Thrower looks bad for PVP on paper, but in reality it's usable on mostly everybody except good mercs or operatives. You would not believe how many people stand in place when fighting.

 

I'm not saying that AP is super awesome, but it's worth giving it a try, to have some change of flavor at least, when playing Powertech.

[Carnifex-XIII]

 

Retractable blade deals kinetic initial damage, but the dot is internal which isnt affected by armor. My damage numbers on this are 900 front plus a 1200 dot. Compare this to my numbers for Incendiary missle which are 300 damage plus a 1500 dot (spread over 18 instead of 15seconds.) Crits aside you are looking at 2100 vs 1800. Now with crits incendiary pulls ahead by a bit, especially on low targets however with its high energy cost its pretty much on only one target, i can throw retractable blade on 3-4 people, using it every global, without even going up a heat level.

 

Lastly you still get 60% armor pen as ap for railshot. This 30% less armor pen isnt what makes the difference in damage so much as the fact that you get the 30% critical strike damage talent as pyrotech and a 9% damage boost to it on burning targets. Right now i can get 3500's with rail shot still.

 

 

RB as a dot cannot compare to the Pyrotech's dot ability:

 

a) Pyro's have 2 dots in the way of CGC and IM. CGC is easily applied and reapplied by FB and RS (and when applied gets the first tick 100% for FB and 100% for RS if the target was burning). IM has a fairly heavy heat cost, but 30 m range is desirable for engaging targets and leaving gifts for runners.

 

b) Fire based dots have better synergy with abilities/skill trees:

-RB benefits from HEGC (5% damage), Prototype Cylinders (3% damage), Hot Iron (6%) and Serrated Blades (15% for the dot). It also sets up Charged Gauntlets.

 

-CGC and IM benefits from Intimidation (6% damage), Prototype Cylinders (3% crit chance), Prototype Burn Enhancers (6% crit chance), Superheated Gas (CGC 10% damage), Firebug (30% crit damage), and Burnout (3% crit chance and 30% damage on targets <30% hp). Both CGC and IM setup Superheated Rails, Rain of Fire, and CGC is tacked on each FB and RS (on burning targets).

 

Even if AP's RS = Pyro's RS, Pyro would still perform better because of RS resets. AP can only do RS every 15 sec. As an added bonus, the RS resets fuel Pyrotech's damage by venting heat on burning targets.

[tommythecat]

I gave this the benefit of the doubt, I did your spec yesterday and I'm in battlemaster/champion gear, and boy let me tell you, when you don't pop relics and expertise stims it's damage on actual GEARED targets is piss poor. I have nothing against AP but the numbers of a pyro build don't lie. I don't have to pop anything to see 3k+ damage with TD and RS on fully geared targets with the exception of tanks.

 

Even the added utility of Hydraulic Overrides is not as amazing as you'd expect, you are still going to fall victim to 50% of the CC type abilities in this game. I like the flamethrower buff and got 2k crits(unbuffed, because claiming buffed damage as normal is basically BS) on pretty well geared targets, it's just a shame that it is so situational.

 

I just wasn't impressed by anything, every skills damage just seems too low when compared to pryo, and I had a much harder time dealing with classes I would normally never even flinch at while I was an AP. It wasn't all bad though, it just proves to me that AP needs serious reworking for it to really measure up to pyro or even a shield tech hybrid.

[JoyProtocol]

Just wanted to chime in - last I heard, Kinetic damage is Tech damage; it's the equal of Elemental and Internal. This is demonstrated by Agent's Backstab, which I use heavily on my Agent.

 

As such, Kinetic damage is not affected by armor/shielding. Some people here imply that Retractable Blade's Kinetic damage is a drawback.

[BlazingShadow]

dmg type and tech/range/melee attacks are not related

 

You can have kinetic/energy attacks that are merely ranged/melee (railshot, unload) and you can have tech attacks that are kinetic/energy attacks (backstab, retractable blade)

 

The drawback of kinetic damage is that it is mitigated by armor.

Edited February 7, 2012 by BlazingShadow

[Mapex]

Just wanted to chime in - last I heard, Kinetic damage is Tech damage; it's the equal of Elemental and Internal. This is demonstrated by Agent's Backstab, which I use heavily on my Agent.

 

As such, Kinetic damage is not affected by armor/shielding. Some people here imply that Retractable Blade's Kinetic damage is a drawback.

 

A few corrections:

 

a) Tech/Force vs Melee/Ranged simply signifies whether the attack is resisted (Tech/Force) or dodged (Melee/Ranged); the damage type is dependent on the ability or, if its a melee/ranged attack, on the weapon you are using. After this roll occurs only then do mitigations come into play:

1) Debuffs to the attacker's damage are applied first (taunts, effects such as Combust, etc).

2) When the ability is a non-crit melee or ranged attack, shield-based mitigation comes into play if the shield procs. Rocket Punch is exempt from shielding since it is a Tech attack.

3) Now the mitigation for the type of damage is considered. Energy and kinetic damage are always reduced by armor, regardless of whether the attack is melee, ranged, Tech, or Force. This means RB's initial strike, Rocket Punch, and Rail Shot are mitigated by armor (the latter is a Ranged attack so it can also be deflected/dodged - do not use it against a Jedi/Sith who has Saber Ward up since it grants 50% defense) whereas all Fire attacks are elemental and reduced only by elemental resistance (of which there is none on gear).

 

b) Retractable Blade isn't sought out for its kinetic damage initial strike but for its armor-piercing internal DoT. The AP tree is all about elemental and internal damage as signified by its cylinder of choice (which offers 8% bonus to internal/elemental damage after talents).

 

Unfortunately the only things that increase RB's DoT are HEGC, Serrated Blades, and Hot Iron, whereas there are multiple talents throughout the trees that affect fire damage (both direct damage and DoT). This is why RB is such a weak ability. Since many of your companions and fellow players use DoTs and stuns on the enemy, I never use Retractable Blade outside of a 1v1 situation since all the other targets are already Rail Shot-enabled for me.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Mapex

[JoyProtocol]

A few corrections:

 

a) Tech/Force vs Melee/Ranged simply signifies whether the attack is resisted (Tech/Force) or dodged (Melee/Ranged); the damage type is dependent on the ability or, if its a melee/ranged attack, on the weapon you are using. After this roll occurs only then do mitigations come into play:

1) Debuffs to the attacker's damage are applied first (taunts, effects such as Combust, etc).

2) When the ability is a non-crit melee or ranged attack, shield-based mitigation comes into play if the shield procs. Rocket Punch is exempt from shielding since it is a Tech attack.

3) Now the mitigation for the type of damage is considered. Energy and kinetic damage are always reduced by armor, regardless of whether the attack is melee, ranged, Tech, or Force. This means RB's initial strike, Rocket Punch, and Rail Shot are mitigated by armor (the latter is a Ranged attack so it can also be deflected/dodged - do not use it against a Jedi/Sith who has Saber Ward up since it grants 50% defense) whereas all Fire attacks are elemental and reduced only by elemental resistance (of which there is none on gear).

 

b) Retractable Blade isn't sought out for its kinetic damage initial strike but for its armor-piercing internal DoT. The AP tree is all about elemental and internal damage as signified by its cylinder of choice (which offers 8% bonus to internal/elemental damage after talents).

 

Unfortunately the only things that increase RB's DoT are HEGC, Serrated Blades, and Hot Iron, whereas there are multiple talents throughout the trees that affect fire damage (both direct damage and DoT). This is why RB is such a weak ability. Since many of your companions and fellow players use DoTs and stuns on the enemy, I never use Retractable Blade outside of a 1v1 situation since all the other targets are already Rail Shot-enabled for me.

 

+1 for awesome

[Moostick]

When people are talking about the crits you get as Pyro they too are using cooldowns to achieve them. Being that the comparison of the two is the point of my thread i was talking about the numbers i could get in similar circumstances. The highest railshot i've gotten on an undergeared scrub with cooldowns as pyro was around 4.6, im sure if i played as it a bunch more i might get near a 5k. Again my point is that im showing that the damage as AP is extremely high not because it has 1 huge attack, but i can achieve back to back to back big hits.

 

This is fine and all, but then it brings it down to one thing - What's the point?

 

Ok, so it does decent burst, but it's still much lower than a Pyro's. If we bring cds into the picture, I can say my highest RS and TDs hit for 6k. And that's with NO pvp gear (I refuse to wear that garbage). So really, this whole thing is moot and a huge misrepresentation.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Moostick