Why all the hate on AP?

[shadowstorm]

Just want to know why i see so much hate for this spec. I'm running it now in pvp with about 50% battlemaster gear and 50% champion. I get at least 5 4k+ crits with immolate every wz and a bunch of 3.5-3.9k rocket punches. Not to mention flame burst does huge damage for a spamable attack. Gotten up to 3.3k with it. Thats gigantic for what is essentially an auto attack. On top of this none of it can be shielded/dodged.

[Brigantee]

Could you post your spec plz?

[shadowstorm]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMbZMsMrRrfkbsZb.1

Ill try to clip a piece of a video in a min of me destroying someone.

[shadowstorm]

This is me destroying some scrub, few good hits in a row. Theres a 3.2k flame burst in there i think as well as a big hit with immolate at the beginning.

http://youtu.be/WgG4T_8y6ME

[The_Beastwood]

Because nothing beats fairly repeatable armor peircing railshot.

 

Also for the Pyrotech Flame Burst always gets extra hit from CGC.

[shadowstorm]

Because nothing beats fairly repeatable armor peircing railshot.

 

Also for the Pyrotech Flame Burst always gets extra hit from CGC.

 

As ap, everything is armor piercing; its all elemental damage. The highest hits ive gotten as pyrotech are in the 4.6k range. I'm not to far off as this spec, and i don't have to worry about getting shielded or dodged. And again 3k+ flame bursts i think are much nicer then the 2k crits i get with pyro even with the 1k damage proc. Yes i know that dot can crit and gets a bonus below 30%, however if the dot is up your second flame burst just does the 2k damage.

[Carnifex-XIII]

As ap, everything is armor piercing; its all elemental damage. The highest hits ive gotten as pyrotech are in the 4.6k range. I'm not to far off as this spec, and i don't have to worry about getting shielded or dodged. And again 3k+ flame bursts i think are much nicer then the 2k crits i get with pyro even with the 1k damage proc. Yes i know that dot can crit and gets a bonus below 30%, however if the dot is up your second flame burst just does the 2k damage.

 

The last sentence is false. Even if CGC burning is currently on your target, you will ALWAYS get the first tick after an FB or RS as Pyrotech and get a refresh on CGC's duration. There is no worry about clipping the CGC dot.

 

Pyrotech has advantages over AP damage:

 

Pyrotech gets 2 dots (IM is 30 m range and CGC is applied by FB and reapplied by RS) compared to AP's 1.

 

TD does more damage than Immolate despite TD being kinetic damage and sharing the same cooldown.

 

Even if RS crits are guaranteed by AP, Pyrotech pulls ahead for every RS reset it gets.

[broaf]

My issue with AP is that once you blow your load, youre stuck spamming rapid shots until cooldowns are up - you can get some nice burst, but there is almost no sustained damage potential.

Pyro with 4pc eliminator will beat out AP with 4pc combat tech every time, even if the spell effect for immolate looks totally bad as s.

[Mapex]

My issue with AP is that once you blow your load, youre stuck spamming rapid shots until cooldowns are up - you can get some nice burst, but there is almost no sustained damage potential.

Pyro with 4pc eliminator will beat out AP with 4pc combat tech every time, even if the spell effect for immolate looks totally bad as s.

 

I almost never get to use Rapid Shots as AP. What do you mean?

 

Immolate -> Rocket Punch -> Retractable Blade -> Rail Shot is the "load" to which you refer I assume, but then you want to start spamming Flame Burst (with one Rapid Shots for every two FBs) anyway to ensure your next Rocket Punch is Heat-free and of course for its high damage. Also too many people hate on Prototype Flame Thrower when it actually has its uses; you might as well work towards those 5 stacks while your main abilities are on cooldown.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Mapex

[The_Beastwood]

Rocket punch and blade aren't armor peircing and certainly can't be compared to a 30m 90% armor peircing attack which can be fired off pretty often.

 

Railshot also always readds the first stack of CGC.

 

And gets a nice 9%+ on burning opponents which is pretty much any enemy you fight as a pyrotech,

[Mapex]

Just want to know why i see so much hate for this spec. I'm running it now in pvp with about 50% battlemaster gear and 50% champion. I get at least 5 4k+ crits with immolate every wz and a bunch of 3.5-3.9k rocket punches. Not to mention flame burst does huge damage for a spamable attack. Gotten up to 3.3k with it. Thats gigantic for what is essentially an auto attack. On top of this none of it can be shielded/dodged.

 

It's not that AP sucks but that PyroTech is significantly (possibly brokenly) better.

 

I play AP myself and I wouldn't dream of stopping. Turning an enemy into a fireball with a 5m radius and stabbing Jedi and Sith in the face with a wrist blade never gets old.

 

AP could definitely use a few buffs but it is definitely a viable playstyle. The main issue is that leveling up as AP is an absolutely terrible experience (until you get Immolate), HEGC is somewhat lacking (not enough talents increase its power), and the higher tier talents need some buffs or minor tweaks (everything in tier 4, 5, and 6 of the AP skill tree, excluding Hydraulic Overrides).

 

If you wish to provide to a constructive effort to bring the AP tree up to par, feel free to check out a thread I've been working on here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=252904

Edited February 6, 2012 by Mapex

[shadowstorm]

Rocket punch and blade aren't armor peircing and certainly can't be compared to a 30m 90% armor peircing attack which can be fired off pretty often.

 

Railshot also always readds the first stack of CGC.

 

And gets a nice 9%+ on burning opponents which is pretty much any enemy you fight as a pyrotech,

 

Except you get 30% bonus critical strike damage with rocket punch as ap. I can get around 4k on a squishy target, which makes it compareably to the damage done by thermal detonator for way less heat, not to mention RP should be a moot point as it isn't armor piercing as either spec so i don't know why you bring it up.

 

Retractable blade deals kinetic initial damage, but the dot is internal which isnt affected by armor. My damage numbers on this are 900 front plus a 1200 dot. Compare this to my numbers for Incendiary missle which are 300 damage plus a 1500 dot (spread over 18 instead of 15seconds.) Crits aside you are looking at 2100 vs 1800. Now with crits incendiary pulls ahead by a bit, especially on low targets however with its high energy cost its pretty much on only one target, i can throw retractable blade on 3-4 people, using it every global, without even going up a heat level.

 

Lastly you still get 60% armor pen as ap for railshot. This 30% less armor pen isnt what makes the difference in damage so much as the fact that you get the 30% critical strike damage talent as pyrotech and a 9% damage boost to it on burning targets. Right now i can get 3500's with rail shot still.

 

Again I'm not trying to make the argument that its better then pyro, but i think it does the same damage. I've played a lot as each spec and in PVP (not just beating away on a boss) i average around the same damage at the end of the game as each spec. Which is about 350k, with 3 protection medals (dont care to go for the 50k one) and 3 healing medals (and thats not just running around killing people, its playing objectives and actual participating). I think ap has great burst, just not the same big number on 1 attack. Getting a 4k immolate->4k rocket punch->3k flame burst is a lot of damage.

 

edit: I would also like to point out i think a lot of people's opinions will change when Rated WZ's come out and there are actual geared tanks with 40%+ avoidance.

Edited February 6, 2012 by shadowstorm

[Sabbathius]

Any videos of AP in action? You got me all curious. I especially like the sound of Hydraulic Overrides, looks like a very nifty thing to have. Though I guess the 30% boost doesn't stack with 15% from Pneumatic Boots?

[Schwummel]

I dont see hate vs AP. AP is a nice spec, maybe a little bit more def and melee oriented than Pyro. Especially I like that 20% less dmg during stun (and we all know how much time we are stunned in pvp). Edited February 6, 2012 by Schwummel

[ZeusThunder]

My favorite thing about AP is the passive heat drop

[exphryl]

I want to fiddle with AP but without the PvP Comat Tech set not sure if it's worth it. (Rocking Eliminators for PvP from pyro)

 

I just don't think I could stand having to be in melee all the time for things. At least with Pyro I can actually kill somebody from range if my grapple is down.

[shadowstorm]

Any videos of AP in action? You got me all curious. I especially like the sound of Hydraulic Overrides, looks like a very nifty thing to have. Though I guess the 30% boost doesn't stack with 15% from Pneumatic Boots?

 

I posted a video thats on the first page, heres another if you want to see more of me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JrwTtn83Zc&feature=youtu.be

 

EDIT: I don't have any like full length pvp videos ready im working on building enough fraps footage to make one.

Edited February 7, 2012 by shadowstorm

[Humankeg]

When they make proto type flame thrower useable while moving, THEN maybe Ill play the spec more.

 

Until then, it is more melee heavy, has less range, offers no slow, and doesn't have the burst capability of pyro.

[Sabbathius]

When they make proto type flame thrower useable while moving, THEN maybe Ill play the spec more.

 

I always figured Flame Thrower was supposed to be used in conjunction with Carbonize? Stun them all, then torch them. I've seen it done a few times with relative success.

 

I posted a video thats on the first page, heres another if you want to see more of me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JrwTtn83Zc&feature=youtu.be

 

EDIT: I don't have any like full length pvp videos ready im working on building enough fraps footage to make one.

 

Can't wait. The guy in the video probably didn't have much in a way of expertise, huh? 14k health, and you hitting him like that?

Edited February 7, 2012 by Sabbathius

[sludgeviper]

I specced AP from the beginning cuz I played Rogue, Mage, and Warrior in WOW and the close range abilities, mobility, and relative survivability added up to a play style I thought I would enjoy. I'm level 42 right now with pyrotech pvp gear and basically decked tfo for my level. I've had a couple games with 300k+ damage plus 15-30k prot using neural dart and I get highest medals 75% of the time. The 30% crit increase applies to flame burst, immolate, and rocket punch, btw. Spamming flame burst feels kinda dumb, but it's basically like improved scorch for mages in WOW. One thing I've been having fun with is my Relic which I pop for 150 alacrity and burn all my channeled abilities on clusters of players. I haven't tried out the Pyrotech spec yet, but it does lack the close range aspect of AP which I love.

[sludgeviper]

I specced AP from the beginning cuz I played Rogue, Mage, and Warrior in WOW and the close range abilities, mobility, and relative survivability added up to a play style I thought I would enjoy. I'm level 42 right now with pyrotech pvp gear and basically decked tfo for my level. I've had a couple games with 300k+ damage plus 15-30k prot using neural dart and I get highest medals 75% of the time. The 30% crit increase applies to flame burst, immolate, and rocket punch, btw. Spamming flame burst feels kinda dumb, but it's basically like improved scorch for mages in WOW. One thing I've been having fun with is my Relic which I pop for 150 alacrity and burn all my channeled abilities on clusters of players. I haven't tried out the Pyrotech spec yet, but it does lack the close range aspect of AP which I love.

[shadowstorm]

Can't wait. The guy in the video probably didn't have much in a way of expertise, huh? 14k health, and you hitting him like that?

 

Dunno it really depends, but those are pretty average numbers when i use a wz adrenal and pop a relic. Like i was saying earlier, ive gotten up to 4.6k's on immolate and i think i got a 4.1k rocket punch today. My battlemaster set is far from finished i only have 7 slots with bm gear right now, so i have a bunch left to get. I just need to keep gearing, hopefully with the weeklies tomorrow i can pull another piece. As far as actually making a full length pvp video i still need to find some video editing software that i can get my hands on.

[Moostick]

I call bs. Or at least gross exaggeration.

 

There's no way flame burst can crit for 3.3k, lol. If it does and you only do 350k damage, that's really sad. And how the hell do you get healing medals?

 

Edit: Saw the video. You had to pop your cds just to crit 2.8k on the flame bursts. There is some exaggeration going on here; you're not supposed to count cds when discussing attack damage. The 3.2k was off a sniper with 11k hp. 11k hp at 50 means he's probably wearing greens on top of being a sniper.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Moostick

[shadowstorm]

When people are talking about the crits you get as Pyro they too are using cooldowns to achieve them. Being that the comparison of the two is the point of my thread i was talking about the numbers i could get in similar circumstances. The highest railshot i've gotten on an undergeared scrub with cooldowns as pyro was around 4.6, im sure if i played as it a bunch more i might get near a 5k. Again my point is that im showing that the damage as AP is extremely high not because it has 1 huge attack, but i can achieve back to back to back big hits.

[cdstephen]

My main problem with AP is that it's most damaging ability, flamethrower, is a channel, which defeats the entire purpose of the powertech (mobility).

 

There's also the fact that serrated blades is complete garbage, but necessary for charged gauntlets.

 

It does more consistent DPS while Pyrotech does more burst DPS. In a PvE setting I think overall they'd do around the same amount of DPS. In a PvP setting where fights with another player last around 30 seconds burst is much more important.