Strah Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 U said 2/23/16, which has no cull, and only improved corrosive dart and corrosive grenade. We all agree than in a competitive scenario ur dots will get dispelled, so ure saying that int probe + ambush and SoS will save ur dmg? I dont know if its better than MM, I dont use MM, I'm engi, and I can´t see how ur 2/23/16 will be better than full engi. Perhaps I'm forgetting something, I dont know. Sorry, that was a mistype on by behalf, the build is 2/16/23. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revotz Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Sorry, that was a mistype on by behalf, the build is 2/16/23. So u re talking about the so popular engi/leth which is actually leth/engi =P, well that build has great dmg, probably the best explosive probe + int probe + poisons (2) + cull can kill anything I must agree on that..but will bring u HUGH energy issues. not to mention u will be squishy, since u will be using cover u wont have the full mobility and u will get hit and killed in a couple of seconds...You dont have..dont remember its name =P (ah ballistic dampers), nor the 6% dmg reduction in cover, nor the double shield probe. With that build you will be the truly glass cannon =P. Edited February 7, 2012 by Revotz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexishomer Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 there is so much win in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strah Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 So u re talking about the so popular engi/leth which is actually leth/engi =P, well that build has great dmg, probably the best explosive probe + int probe + poisons (2) + cull can kill anything I must agree on that..but will bring u HUGH energy issues. not to mention u will be squishy, since u will be using cover u wont have the full mobility and u will get hit and killed in a couple of seconds...You dont have ballistic shields, nor the 6% dmg reduction nor the double shield probe. With that build you will be the truly glass cannon =P. Pretty much, i was using it since i dinged 50, " before it was cool " . Running at 44% crit, which is 56% crit @ dots i barely get energy issues tbh. the only thing you need to survive is throwing out dots, then you go flashbang or debilitate=>cull=>cover=>ambush+probe. The target should be dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaJJ Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 So am I the only one still using Marksman and getting tops in damage, KBs, Solo kills, and all that other good stuff. I tried Lethality and yes you can get good numbers but it is by spreading it all out and you really are not killing anybody outside of Cull (if you still have energy to cast it). Personally I can always get the 300k medal and top the charts while doing objectives (killing the ball carrier and people on the door gives obj points), and considering that all of my damage is rotating one target at a time and not aoe + dotting up everyone, I believe that I am contributing more than when I did try leth. Stating that there is only one good spec and all others are useless is false. MM is still a good spec and can dish out tons of damage on a single character. Just pick your targets and CC the juggs, kill the healers, interrupt the DPS. Who cares that our damage is bad on tanks, there are few of them actually playing as tanks and they do little damage anyways. One thing we still excel at over Leth is that we can actually kill healers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strah Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 So am I the only one still using Marksman and getting tops in damage, KBs, Solo kills, and all that other good stuff. I tried Lethality and yes you can get good numbers but it is by spreading it all out and you really are not killing anybody outside of Cull (if you still have energy to cast it). Personally I can always get the 300k medal and top the charts while doing objectives (killing the ball carrier and people on the door gives obj points), and considering that all of my damage is rotating one target at a time and not aoe + dotting up everyone, I believe that I am contributing more than when I did try leth. Stating that there is only one good spec and all others are useless is false. MM is still a good spec and can dish out tons of damage on a single character. Just pick your targets and CC the juggs, kill the healers, interrupt the DPS. Who cares that our damage is bad on tanks, there are few of them actually playing as tanks and they do little damage anyways. One thing we still excel at over Leth is that we can actually kill healers. MM is not a bad spec, the only problem with it is most of it is not tech, it's easily avoidable and it relies on being stationary and relying on los TOO much. I don't know how long did u try lethality for, but i never have problems killing healers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revotz Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Pretty much, i was using it since i dinged 50, " before it was cool " . Running at 44% crit, which is 56% crit @ dots i barely get energy issues tbh. the only thing you need to survive is throwing out dots, then you go flashbang or debilitate=>cull=>cover=>ambush+probe. The target should be dead. Could work, but not sure, and requires a lot of crit and expertise. The problems I see on that build is that ur dots will still get dispelled sometimes, debilitate will only last for 2 seconds I think (tooltip is bugged or something) and flashbang wont be of any use as ur dots will break it (something that needs to be adressed in my opinion), and of course the defense problem if ure using ambush then u re in cover and getting hit pretty soon by melee and inmediately by ranged, not tom ention u wont be able to kill oepratives at all, unless u find them attacking someone else. Every build has its weaknesses, Engi has great defense some mobility and a good burst, but the burst has to wait and sometimes will not kill ur target so ull have to use a couple of snipes to do that, but hell...u can do that because u have great defense, I've been focused by like 3 guys and using ballistic shield, entrench, b. dampers, and shield probe x2 u can hold lots of seconds and most times kill one of them, if u have a healer at ur side, u re unkillable and they will have to flee =P. Different styles, thats for sure. Edited February 7, 2012 by Revotz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strah Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Could work, but not sure, and requires a lot of crit and expertise. The problems I see on that build is that ur dots will still get dispelled sometimes, debilitate will only last for 2 seconds I think (tooltip is bugged or something) and flashbang wont be of any use as ur dots will break it (something that needs to be adressed in my opinion), and of course the defense problem if ure using ambush then u re in cover and getting hit pretty soon by melee and inmediately if ranged. Every build has its weaknesses, Engi has great defense some mobility and a good burst, but the burst has to wait and sometimes will not kill ur target so ull have to use a couple of snipes to do that, but hell...u can do that because u have great defense, I've been focused by like 3 guys and using ballistic shield, entrench, b. dampers, and shield probe x2 u can hold lots of seconds. The thing is, you can hold, but you will die eventually, since you do not have any escapes like marauders/operatives/shadows or sorcs do. Snipers and mercs are the turret class, aiming to kill the target before they get killed themselves. We can not reset the fight since can not exit combat or heal up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaJJ Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 MM is not a bad spec, the only problem with it is most of it is not tech, it's easily avoidable and it relies on being stationary and relying on los TOO much. I don't know how long did u try lethality for, but i never have problems killing healers. Like 15 or so matches. I could get impressive numbers but I never felt as though I was doing anything. Most of the people just got dotted and ran off doing other things and even with high crit rating I was having serious energy issues that I don't have as often in MM. Healers always seemed to purge or heal through everything I could hit them with and Cull is nothing without dots on the target. At that point it was like relying on SoS to get them down which is really a poor burst skill. It seems that telling everyone that Leth is the one and only pvp spec or pve spec is false. I did however hit 700k in Voidstar using Leth which was funny but again it was mostly aoe and low damage dots that never really took anyone low. To sum it up it is more like 300k in MM gets more accomplished than 400k in Leth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaJJ Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The thing is, you can hold, but you will die eventually, since you do not have any escapes like marauders/operatives/shadows or sorcs do. Snipers and mercs are the turret class, aiming to kill the target before they get killed themselves. We can not reset the fight since can not exit combat or heal up. I don't know what you are talking about but I am hard as fook to kill if I don't want to die. Dieing is our fastest way to regen energy sometimes... Shooting down from the rafters in Hutball, from the top overhang in Civil war, from on top of the turrets in Civil war, or from behind boxes in Voidstar is a great way to stay alive since most people don't even see where you are at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRagingPwner Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 So am I the only one still using Marksman and getting tops in damage, KBs, Solo kills, and all that other good stuff. I tried Lethality and yes you can get good numbers but it is by spreading it all out and you really are not killing anybody outside of Cull (if you still have energy to cast it). Personally I can always get the 300k medal and top the charts while doing objectives (killing the ball carrier and people on the door gives obj points), and considering that all of my damage is rotating one target at a time and not aoe + dotting up everyone, I believe that I am contributing more than when I did try leth. Stating that there is only one good spec and all others are useless is false. MM is still a good spec and can dish out tons of damage on a single character. Just pick your targets and CC the juggs, kill the healers, interrupt the DPS. Who cares that our damage is bad on tanks, there are few of them actually playing as tanks and they do little damage anyways. One thing we still excel at over Leth is that we can actually kill healers. Ive been keeping up on this thread and haven't posted yet but this is exactly what I have been shaking my head about the whole time. As a MM, I rarely am not top dmg, kills, and KBs. I am over 300k dmg every game, even if my team sucks. I get lethality spec snipers whispering me all the time asking me what I do differently. As MM, I can sit back and burst the softies down 1 by 1. When one dies, I can seamlessly move on to the next. If someone I am attacking decides to run away to go heal, I switch targets and let him run because he is taking himself out of the battle. People that chase a single kill just for medals are pathetic. I have no energy problems whatsoever and I can burst people down constantly. I have played lethality quite a bit to test out the difference and there is no way that it can keep up with the consistent single target DPS that a MM can, if played correctly. The thing that is great about MM is that I spend less time sitting in the re-spawn zone where I am dealing no dmg because we have more survivability. I love when I see lethality snipers in my games because they die in 4 hits...its the easiest kill I could hope for. Now don't get me wrong, I like having lethality snipers on my team because they do ONE thing well and that is dot people up so that I can burst them down (If the other team is bad and doesn't dispell or kill him first because they die so fast). It is much easier for me when I can switch to a target and he has 50% HPs. They are also better at killing tanks, that is pretty obvious, but if you are actively seeking out tanks to kill as a MM, you are doing it wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strah Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I don't know what you are talking about but I am hard as fook to kill if I don't want to die. Dieing is our fastest way to regen energy sometimes... Shooting down from the rafters in Hutball, from the top overhang in Civil war, from on top of the turrets in Civil war, or from behind boxes in Voidstar is a great way to stay alive since most people don't even see where you are at. if we're talking pugs - yeah. If we're talking premades - not a chance. Assassins and ops will be over your face if they know what kind of threat you pose. And if there are 2 of them on your face - you can't do a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revotz Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 To be honest after debating an reading all your thoughts I think every build has its weaknesses, and its perks. It depends on your playstyle (and not going out of energy within seconds). I just find full engi the best suited to me because I like throwing myself into the middle of a disadvantaged fight to help with ballistic shield xD sry my english sucks =P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rekoil Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 As MM, I can sit back and burst the softies down 1 by 1.. see thats where i have an issue, when i was MM i was rarely able to sit back and burst and i personally cannot believe that anyone who pvps regularly can say that happens?? (mainly down to my own experiences) i found and still find it so so rare that you are able to pick and choose your fights as a MM sniper unless you just sit on the flanks and do actually just pick on people already in combat- in all honesty i got bored of that very quickly anyway being mobile and being able to really be in the thick of it is key for me in regards to lethality and pvp and its a much more fun and involving experience i loved MM spec but i found it so restrictive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rekoil Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 if we're talking pugs - yeah. If we're talking premades - not a chance. Assassins and ops will be over your face if they know what kind of threat you pose. And if there are 2 of them on your face - you can't do a thing. exactly, consider yourselves incredibly blessed if you are able to actually sit there in cover and nuke, 1/20 warzones i got to do that, even with pugs! any half decent scoundrel or whatever will be on you in a flash heck even troopers (usually with a healer) go for me straight away! sods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRagingPwner Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 see thats where i have an issue, when i was MM i was rarely able to sit back and burst and i personally cannot believe that anyone who pvps regularly can say that happens?? (mainly down to my own experiences) i found and still find it so so rare that you are able to pick and choose your fights as a MM sniper unless you just sit on the flanks and do actually just pick on people already in combat- in all honesty i got bored of that very quickly anyway being mobile and being able to really be in the thick of it is key for me in regards to lethality and pvp and its a much more fun and involving experience i loved MM spec but i found it so restrictive In Huttball it is very easy to sit back (or sit up on the high ground while the mobs fight below). I usually get 1 or 2 smart people that realize they need to kill me but it is so easy to knock people off the high ropes. If they send 2 people after you and you cant CC them, you are going to die. No class will survive a 2v1. On my server, we greatly outnumber the pubes so I get hutball 2/3 games. The other arenas are usually a little more difficult and if the other team is smart enough to realize that I am a huge threat then it is more difficult. What I usually do in Voidstar and Civil War is find a healer and protect him. The other team will always go after the healer first if they are smart which means they wont be on you. If you are good at protecting him, he will healbot you which also helps. I have had great success doing this strategy. Otherwise I set up shop right next to a pillar where I can LoS the ranged if they all decide to go after me and then I will CC the melee. If I get 2-3 people on me and I can take one out, then it is a win in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaJJ Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 if we're talking pugs - yeah. If we're talking premades - not a chance. Assassins and ops will be over your face if they know what kind of threat you pose. And if there are 2 of them on your face - you can't do a thing. That is the same for all classes; if an assassin or ops catches you in a position where they can burst you down away from people who can help you they will. There are matches where I do get shut down but with as much CC as we have in addition to Ballistic Dampers, Entrench, and Shield Probe we have lots of survivability when the CC's are down. It is all about picking good defensible positions and picking good targets (No not always the 50% HP guy but rather the person with low defense or the person spamming tracer missile) and letting the guy with 1% hp run away to stand there and heal... Honestly if someone runs away with low HP they are hurting their team since they could just die and come back fully refreshed in less time. Unless they have water... Which is awesome BTW.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirela Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) I'm saying that lethality is not helpless outside of dots. Did you even read what i typed? But then you're just doing low damage easily healed through. =P Edited February 7, 2012 by Mirela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfthirteen Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 A flawless victory! Wow! You sure earned it for your team! Good job! You got more medals than me when using your biochem medpac gave you medals! Fact of the matter is, I showed more than one screenshot and doing anything less than 400k damage in a Huttball is unordinary and doesn't happen for me anymore. Your 180k damage didn't influence the game as much as me doing 500K + does, but nice try. Keep playing your useless MM spec and sitting in cover all game because you do absolutely nothing. Your 180k damage is **** and I do that in 5 mins Earning objective points in a game that is bugged and broken in the way it keeps track of it You clearly missed the part where he said he did that damage in 5min, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strah Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 But then you're just doing low damage easily healed through. =P So the addition of followthrough and30% crit damage on sos takedown and FT raises sniper's damage from low to high? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaidax Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Seriously people, it's almost like you play one spec only forever... I switch between MM and Lethality often, just for a change of pace here and there... And really, as much as Lethality is nice and dandy, it just does not reach the burst of MM, as simple as that. Lethality is great against tanks and such, but it is just terribad against any decent healer, you won't be dropping one with a mere Cull+Probe and there comes the problem - you simply won't have energy for anything else to finish the job. MM, on the other hand, has a constant stream of hard nukes it can keep up for quite a while, so it's not only better burst, but also the fact that after that burst you won't end up staring helplessly at your empty energy bar, while your target merrily gets back to 100%. It is just THAT simple, Lethality's greatest weakness is not dispelling, lower effective burst or low defenses - it is Energy becoming a huge ball with chain that prevents this spec from keeping up the pressure for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revotz Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Seriously people, it's almost like you play one spec only forever... I switch between MM and Lethality often, just for a change of pace here and there... And really, as much as Lethality is nice and dandy, it just does not reach the burst of MM, as simple as that. Lethality is great against tanks and such, but it is just terribad against any decent healer, you won't be dropping one with a mere Cull+Probe and there comes the problem - you simply won't have energy for anything else to finish the job. MM, on the other hand, has a constant stream of hard nukes it can keep up for quite a while, so it's not only better burst, but also the fact that after that burst you won't end up staring helplessly at your empty energy bar, while your target merrily gets back to 100%. It is just THAT simple, Lethality's greatest weakness is not dispelling, lower effective burst or low defenses - it is Energy becoming a huge ball with chain that prevents this spec from keeping up the pressure for a long time. I agree with u, even with 50%+ dot crit chance it wont be enoguh, but some ppl say that they dont have energy management problems...not sure if should believe them. And I think lethality is not that bad, in pvp I only used dots, wk, cull and then rifle shot only...and that was all energy shots I could use and I hit really hard I was killing ppl in the worst case with the second cull, so I was shocked when ppl proposed a leth/engi build...It's hard for me to believe its possible to manage energy well with all those expensive abilities, but the amount of ppl talking about how good it is makes me think there's something I'm missing. Edited February 7, 2012 by Revotz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revotz Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) So the addition of followthrough and30% crit damage on sos takedown and FT raises sniper's damage from low to high? The point is that they're instant...explosive probe + snipe (crit and instant) + followthrough, can hit really hard, not to mention 1.5 sec cast ambush with 20% extra armor pen, it is still bad against heavy armor, but will be killing some ACs pretty fast..and if u make a crit takedown is a kill for sure. The msot stupid ability for a MM is series of shots I think if it doesnt crit it sucks, and wont even leave a dot like engi. My problem with MM is still LoS and doing low dmg on tanks mostly. Edited February 7, 2012 by Revotz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniteh Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) I completely agree with the op (68 valor sniper here). Lethality is in every way better for PvP. Try it out, you'll see. Edited February 7, 2012 by daniteh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MightyHalo Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I completely agree with the op (68 valor sniper here). Lethality is in every way better for PvP. Try it out, you'll see. It isn't in any way better than MM in PVP. Not even close. Lethality is just a spec for people who don't want cover and enjoy running around. With a competent healer in ranked wz's, lethality will be nowhere to be found. MM is just hard mode but when it is mastered, and I doubt anyone has done it yet, they will be beasts in ranked WZs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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