dirty fighting better than most think

[Santaner]

Dirty Fighting is good at:

 

-Stopping caps

-Pretending to contribute to your team

 

Dirty Fighting is bad at:

 

-Everything else

 

I played the spec for almost 2 weeks when they announced the Scrapper nerf. It's complete garbage (for PvP... PvE, it actually seemed fine, just clunky). It's very effective against terrible players that don't know they can cleanse all your damage or that you still operate in melee range. Scrapper is still great after the nerf, especially for 1v1s/taking out squish in the back and does everything better than Dirty Fighting, except stopping caps.

[TrikkiOne]

Dirty Fighting is good at:

 

-Stopping caps

-Pretending to contribute to your team

 

Dirty Fighting is bad at:

 

-Everything else

 

I played the spec for almost 2 weeks when they announced the Scrapper nerf. It's complete garbage (for PvP... PvE, it actually seemed fine, just clunky). It's very effective against terrible players that don't know they can cleanse all your damage or that you still operate in melee range. Scrapper is still great after the nerf, especially for 1v1s/taking out squish in the back and does everything better than Dirty Fighting, except stopping caps.

 

Agree, Dirty Fighting needs some serious love.

[Metalmac]

Yea it is really hard to out damage a DF spec. They alway beat me on kills and damage.

 

But I can save the day and get caps on my own.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IarE1JGcE14&list=UUULwPKqrRFCtNv5_xMuOqQw&index=1&feature=plcp

Edited February 9, 2012 by Metalmac

[Corran]

dirty fighting is fine but not full df

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#701rcZGhMoZhrbkrMhd.1

 

is what you want

 

 

free back blasts and not burning 10 energy on hemo. yes your wounding wont hit as hard as with hemo nor will your dots, but that is more than made up for the fact you have such an energy surplus you pretty much never have to flurry of bolts and ensures that no matter what situation you are in, you can blaster whip and backblast on cooldown and wounding shots everytime you have upper hand while keepiong dots up

 

 

for long and short fights i have found the above spec to be ideal and none to shabby i pvp especially if the imps onyour server field a lot of merc healers. they rarely dispel, especially if you are pressuring them directly.

[Polimeris]

I am going to try this sooner or later.

 

Play it as a healer.

Surprise your opponent with good frontload damage when they come after you. (you are a healer, so you should be in the back. People are going to switch on you, but they will be dot'ed and you will have two TA.

 

Not saying it's the best. But I think it may be an interesting hybrid experience.

 

 

(And yeah, the fact that putting 11 point in sawbones and play as a healer somehow means that our skill tree is somewhat cluncky. The only thing I will miss is emergency medpack and bonus on crit. And the heal on cleanse to some extent)

[Affics]

Every good healer will dispell dots and after this u cant do damage at all.

[vartius]

If you are DoT kiting you can watch for purges of your DoTs and reapply them. They don't have long cooldowns like the defensive abilities.

 

Its really a manner of playstyle. I like taking a chunk off of all enemies to help my allies rather than the lone wolf stalking of scrapper these days. Who ever said low survivability is way off base. Max range fighting and staying on the move has its own safety. We can fight on the run unlike gunslingers and grav/tracer spammers and there are kite lanes in the WZs. I know to look where the nearer line of sight cover is if I pull multiple enemies' attention. Defense screen gives some defense from scatter damage when you have to stay in the thick of things. Then we can still dodge and disappearing act to reassess the situation on allies and enemies.

 

I just see too many dead weigh skills in Scrapper tree. Flying Fists randomness for lousy additional damage is annoying. 2% more bleed, 2 sec roots, 1.5 sec knockdowns, health boons? High in a "burst" DPS tree? These things do not add to the burst.

Edited February 9, 2012 by vartius

[LordBanjax]

I think we're partly running into a play style preference. I switched over at 41 recently to try out DF, i'm liking it a lot. I didn't suck at Scrapper, I liked it as well. DF's not very bursty up front, but rather bursty in the middle parts I'm finding. Personally i'm finding my wz performance has increased a whole lot. I was always too careful as a scrapper.

 

Scrapper right away you notice a big ole chunk of player health missing, and it's satisfying knowing you just punched a hole in someone's back.

 

DF, you throw a bunch of stuff on a guy and look at his health and you're like.... "ummmm, ok". But after a couple of ticks a few crits and a wounding shot it starts becoming a wrecking ball.

[vartius]

Probably better that we spread out our ranks so we stay unique within the AC. I don't think individual DoTs stack. 2 Scrappers can step on each others toes when not communicating (double shoot first is fun to see, though) Only so much healing needed before you need some burst.

 

I am sure I will change my style many times and not be married to any of the ability trees.

[Sibelius]

This is the build I am aiming for at the moment.

 

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/smuggler/scoundrel/#::f2efe4f6ef3e2f4df15e2fefef2e4fef2efe:

 

I'm only at 35 on my first character at the moment (I like to take my time and fully appreciate the game).

 

I loaded up on the Sawbones skills to start for survivability v champions and soloing the 2 man elite missions, but constantly healing Bowdaar is starting to wear thin, so I have decide to delve into the DF tree.

 

This build is pretty heavy on Sawbones, with the crit SRMP ticks and UWM to keep the Upper Hand up. I will also have a very high crit chance on bleeds through gear & skills that provide extra damage and energy regain. There are also lowered cooldowns and extra energy regains on pugnacity and cool head.

 

This is purely a solo PVE and non-hard mode flashpoint build, and I will likely respec to full Sawbones at 50 for raiding.

[Sylriana]

It's a fun spec, but it's really killed by the fact that you can't generate upper hand at range (hemo/wounding being 10m instead of 30 doesn't really help either ).. I do think some of the people here are understating DF's burst damage though.

 

See I hear this alot also. But why would you be running back for rather then just staying in melee range.

 

Because dirty fighting/lethality has poor staying power in melee range through poor survivability. Scrappers are designed to burst and get out, but dirty fighters need to last in order to deal damage, and you can only really last as a smuggler if you hang out at long range. Which is why when most people talk about buffing the spec, giving it UH generation at 30m oftentimes shows up near the top of the list ( sometimes buffing the range on hemo/wounding too)

[WasabiJack]

I play DF too, but it's also easy to get your numbers...

How ? Just spam Vital Shot and Bomb. You don't actually kill anything, except if you focus on someone with Hemorrhaging Blast and Wounding Shots.

 

DF is good for Voidstar and Civil War, since the DoTs cancel the channeling for doors and towers.

 

Don't forget to use Sabotage Charge, which is pretty good.

 

I do :

 

Shoot First -> Back Blast

Vital Shot -> Shrap Bomb -> Sabotage Charge -> Hemorrhaging Blast -> Blaster Whip -> Wounding Shots or Pugnacity/Cool Head

 

Mix it up with Thermal Grenade, Dirty Kick and any skills to take advantage of.

 

 

DF is also very good for PvE. Spam Shrap Bomb and Thermal Grenade and you are done !

 

 

Do you have a video of you doing this rotation? When I tried it, I ran out of energy so quickly, it didn't see like I could do much. I had to weave in blaster fire all over the place to just stay afloat.

 

I also like the spec, but vs anyone that is decent, one on one, you will get destroyed. Its not because the dps is not good.. its because we don't have the tools to survive long enough for the dps to kill someone. In PVE this spec is pretty awsome.

 

Especially with pve gear, and stack some crits in there to get close to 39%, you'll be steller dps performer.

[antiviolence]

If you are DoT kiting you can watch for purges of your DoTs and reapply them. They don't have long cooldowns like the defensive abilities.

 

Its really a manner of playstyle. I like taking a chunk off of all enemies to help my allies rather than the lone wolf stalking of scrapper these days. Who ever said low survivability is way off base. Max range fighting and staying on the move has its own safety. We can fight on the run unlike gunslingers and grav/tracer spammers and there are kite lanes in the WZs. I know to look where the nearer line of sight cover is if I pull multiple enemies' attention. Defense screen gives some defense from scatter damage when you have to stay in the thick of things. Then we can still dodge and disappearing act to reassess the situation on allies and enemies.

 

I just see too many dead weigh skills in Scrapper tree. Flying Fists randomness for lousy additional damage is annoying. 2% more bleed, 2 sec roots, 1.5 sec knockdowns, health boons? High in a "burst" DPS tree? These things do not add to the burst.

 

Just to let you know, what you've explained to everyone is based on a 1v1 situation where you're able to kite a class effectively. Unfortunately, WZ's are team based where good players actually move in groups of 2 or more rather than said "lonewolf" style. Even Scrappers now have to play in groups rather than alone.

 

A sawbones stacking 2 SRMP can almost effectively cancel your DoT damage without hemo shot. Sometimes even with hemo shot, it's still too easy to heal through that damage. The only thing worth mentioning in DF is doing a nice crit with wounding shot, which requires upper hand, 10m range and applying 2 DoTs on the target.

[Waagabond]

Just to let you know, what you've explained to everyone is based on a 1v1 situation where you're able to kite a class effectively. Unfortunately, WZ's are team based where good players actually move in groups of 2 or more rather than said "lonewolf" style. Even Scrappers now have to play in groups rather than alone.

 

A sawbones stacking 2 SRMP can almost effectively cancel your DoT damage without hemo shot. Sometimes even with hemo shot, it's still too easy to heal through that damage. The only thing worth mentioning in DF is doing a nice crit with wounding shot, which requires upper hand, 10m range and applying 2 DoTs on the target.

 

Now you must be trolling.

 

Do you have any idea for how much vital shot with 18% damage, 25% chance for double proc and a total of +18% crit from talents hits for?

Add in Shrapnel to that. And add in that right now 4-6 targets have this damage running on them, and thats just from ONE dirty fighting scoundrel.

 

Yes its a team game. its not one dirty fighter scoundrel vs 8 players.

 

Dirty fighting is far more effective and useful in a team oriented fight then scrapper can ever be.

 

Scrapper pre nerf had tactical advantage of being able to take out keytargets unless they was guarded or healed, but otherwise rather effective.

 

Today, only dps spec viable in a full premade, as scoundrel, is dirty fighting.

If a team requires a melee damage stealther you pick an assasain or shadow tank over a scrapper scoundrel anyday of the week.

 

And if you want a healer you dont pick a sawbone to start with, you have a sage and commando medic.

 

The overall assist preassure in damage you do with dirty fighting is incredibly.

 

Sure, you can have a sawbone that just spams hots JUST to counter the dots, but the hots will NOT do as much healing as the dots do damage, now add to that a few more team members that assist damage and the hots that is rolling, is doing NOTHING for the other damage that is incoming.

 

Again, you got it very right, this is a team based game, not 1vs1.

 

Scrapper is a 1vs1 spec, Dirty fighting is a team dps spec.

And even there, Dirty fighting with the correct talents is far better in 1vs1 then scrapper, since you can fire and forget, cc, run and just kite. It takes longer, but you survive better.

[antiviolence]

Now you must be trolling.

 

Do you have any idea for how much vital shot with 18% damage, 25% chance for double proc and a total of +18% crit from talents hits for?

Add in Shrapnel to that. And add in that right now 4-6 targets have this damage running on them, and thats just from ONE dirty fighting scoundrel.

 

Yes its a team game. its not one dirty fighter scoundrel vs 8 players.

 

Dirty fighting is far more effective and useful in a team oriented fight then scrapper can ever be.

 

Scrapper pre nerf had tactical advantage of being able to take out keytargets unless they was guarded or healed, but otherwise rather effective.

 

Today, only dps spec viable in a full premade, as scoundrel, is dirty fighting.

If a team requires a melee damage stealther you pick an assasain or shadow tank over a scrapper scoundrel anyday of the week.

 

And if you want a healer you dont pick a sawbone to start with, you have a sage and commando medic.

 

The overall assist preassure in damage you do with dirty fighting is incredibly.

 

Sure, you can have a sawbone that just spams hots JUST to counter the dots, but the hots will NOT do as much healing as the dots do damage, now add to that a few more team members that assist damage and the hots that is rolling, is doing NOTHING for the other damage that is incoming.

 

Again, you got it very right, this is a team based game, not 1vs1.

 

Scrapper is a 1vs1 spec, Dirty fighting is a team dps spec.

And even there, Dirty fighting with the correct talents is far better in 1vs1 then scrapper, since you can fire and forget, cc, run and just kite. It takes longer, but you survive better.

 

Mmm.. not sure if serious. Must not have met the power of cleanse. Or must not have fought another player who uses his defensive cooldowns. Not saying that people don't use defensive CDs against other players but when you play a spec that takes a slightly longer time to kill a target as compared to someone who can nuke you down in half the time, well, you can do the math.

[vartius]

People do not use their defensive cooldowns for DoTs as much as you would think. They mostly think they are taking scatter damage and move to cover. Healers focus on healing and not cleansing DoTs and shrap bomb also hits up to 3 targets. So DoTs on 3 targets put demand on them in any case. I have also learned to find the logos on target box quickly to keep the dot rot pressure up. I have 3 tree/1st abilities with snare on shrap spec so I imagine the complains on wounding/hemo are founded - Large energy cost for limited range/easily countered in PvP. Edited February 10, 2012 by vartius

[Waagabond]

Every good healer will dispell dots and after this u cant do damage at all.

 

shrapnel in a group hits 3 people, then you tab dot maybe 2-4 people then focus dps on one.

 

A healer that want to spend his time dispelling is a healer taken out of action.

Sure he can dispel dots that we just reapply, but he wont cast any heals.

 

Unless they have 2 focused healers people will die.

Its not one smuggler vs their team, its our team vs theirs, and its not just the smuggler doing damage.

 

Maybe one target or two is dispelled once, but thats it.

 

I play healer as well and I do dispell but you just cant keep it up.

[moecah]

dirty fighting is fine but not full df

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#701rcZGhMoZhrbkrMhd.1

 

is what you want

 

 

free back blasts and not burning 10 energy on hemo. yes your wounding wont hit as hard as with hemo nor will your dots, but that is more than made up for the fact you have such an energy surplus you pretty much never have to flurry of bolts and ensures that no matter what situation you are in, you can blaster whip and backblast on cooldown and wounding shots everytime you have upper hand while keepiong dots up

 

 

for long and short fights i have found the above spec to be ideal and none to shabby i pvp especially if the imps onyour server field a lot of merc healers. they rarely dispel, especially if you are pressuring them directly.

 

 

This looks really neat.

 

How do you fair in PVE and which Companion do you use?

 

I was interested in trying out DF. I'm a 44 Scrapper with slow release med pack and I was thinking about trying something different.

Edited February 10, 2012 by moecah