Kynesis Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Just ran Hard Mode Black Talon and found that my health quite frequently shot down to half, even on non-boss fights. I know Assassin tanks aren't known for great mitigation (though I believe the general intention is that all tanks should ultimately have similar mitigation, overall). Before you say it, no I wasn't standing in fire or pulling five groups at a time and my gear was repaired after each death - yes, we wiped a couple of times after I suddenly lost a huge chunk of health. Stats follow: (buffed with what I've got on after just finishing the run, Mark of Power and Coordination) Health: 17520 Armor: 6490 Damage Reduction: 39.53% Defence Chance: 24.81% Shield Chance: 30.06% Shield Absorb: 32.59% This really shouldn't be happening, not on an early hard mode, surely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 This really shouldn't be happening, not on an early hard mode, surely. The Hard Modes are hard. They're not anything like the heroic dungeon runs from WoW. The difficulties are *really* hard spikes and they don't drop much gear (but the gear they do drop is *really* nice). I think you're expecting them to be easy with decent gear; they're not. Expect to see your hit points bounce around a good deal and to have to burn CDs even on well executed boss fights. That's just the reality of the content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oneiros_IV Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 The Hard Modes are hard. They're not anything like the heroic dungeon runs from WoW. The difficulties are *really* hard spikes and they don't drop much gear (but the gear they do drop is *really* nice) You are so full of... well, bad and embarassing things /o\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QiBao Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Hardmodes vary in difficulty, but BT should be fairly easy. The first pull you'll drop fast because you're suddenly in combat and getting hit by 4 guys. Make sure your dps is roflstomping normal mobs first, toss a 4 sec stun on a bigger guy if you need to. The only things really challenging about heroics is managing some trash packs (spread out, cc'ing the tank, knockbacks with slows, etc...). I play a pretty geared PT, and the only thing that really moves my health is some bigger trash packs where we don't cc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravand Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 On bosses in hard mode, you and your dps need to interrupt the bosses skills, if you manage that you will see the bosses damage drop a lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinmancreeping Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Get used to it tbh. We have less mitigation so our health will always spike. Just learn when to use cooldowns/relics/adrenals, and have a good healer with yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dukibritches Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Forgive me for asking such a simple question. Are you wearing a shield in your offhand slot? If not then you arent shielding anything. The only reason I ask is because I rarely find myself losing large chunks of health in HM FP's. The exception would be on large AOE pulls where perhaps my Dark Ward is used up before I can refresh it, causing my shield chance to drop 15%. Perhaps stacking more absorb would help you if you continue to have the same issue. I know on my character I have about 40% absorb, but I have 3/5 Columni Gear and some other normal Ops drops(which I run as main tank with no problems at all) I have actually been told by my healers that I am much easier to heal than our BH Powertech offtank. I'm sure some of this is because I have a bit more gear than him, but I didnt think it would be such a large difference. I have had him taunt a boss off me and just watch his health drop much quicker than mine while I'm waiting for my debuff to fall off and taunt back. Seems odd to me, but we'll see how he fairs when he has equal gear to mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battilea Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Perhaps stacking more absorb would help you if you continue to have the same issue. I know on my character I have about 40% absorb, but I have 3/5 Columni Gear and some other normal Ops drops(which I run as main tank with no problems at all) You can get decent absorb pretty easily even without columni gear. Our mod rewards for Freeing the Fallen include an absorb version. Between that and the shield/absorb enhancement from Poisonous Strategy, well, it adds up pretty fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I wonder if the Assassin's self-heals are enough to alleviate this for healers... Certainly, they'd work better with the Merc than other tanks would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Galadrind Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) OP without having the luxury of dissecting a combat log a simplistic way to help you narrow down where the issue may lay is to answer these in your mind... Is there any pattern what so ever to this ? i.e run FP X 20 times & you know damn well exactly how the next pull needs to be handled , learnt from mistakes along the way , refined & evolved your strat. Buzz word " Lessons Learnt " you know which pulls...pre-pull you pop a CD or your Rakata AC stim before even enganging the pull as you know in 3.4ms you are about to be knocked back , CC'd , DW smashed off , Mob positioning ,Healer silenced etc etc or any other number of reasons that make a 'certain known' pull a huge PITA Is it completely random in nature ? i.e there is no semblence or even a base to start trying to figure out what is going on here. This is really the only point at which you need to go back & closely examine your setup , gear , 'rotation for a peer check Do you see this occurring in every FP or is it only under certain specific circumstances? i.e do you 'always' run with the same DPS & Healer or mostly PUGS. Personally whenever I have any issues it is those times I PUG. Different group dynamics , lack of appropriate CC , lack of effective means of communication mumble/vent etc , a healer with the IQ of a potato , trigger happy DPS or myself having spend extra time correcting other ppls errors to the detriment of my own buff/debuff micro management as a Sintank is *exactly* when I see & feel these "spikey issues arise". You seem genuine to work out what / where the issue may lay which is a good thing... so you may wish to consider editing the thread title to something a little less likely to attract the " OMGZ Sintanks are made of glass" band wagon crew . Hope you find a solution to your boggle & enjoy Edited February 7, 2012 by Lord_Galadrind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxxr Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Your stats clearly indicate that you outgear the flashpoint you were running. That only leaves three options: Your healer was bad and didn't react properly, wich in turn you misinterpreted. You were in fact standing in avoidable damage sources. You didn't use your cooldowns like you should have. Maybe forgot to activate Dark Ward or something. Anyway, there arn't a lot of options if your stats are correct the list of things that could go wrong is rather limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kynesis Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Thanks for the thoughts & suggestions. It's very difficult to get groups for anything on my server, so many people are 'under geared' in terms of Hard Modes, it's entirely possible the healer was struggling. Even if he was though I still find the sudden big drops quite a surprise - perhaps it is more common but we don't see it because healers are keeping on top of it and with better gear, it's less noticeable for them. I have been favouring Defence over Shield, I might see about trying to balance that out more. I agree of course that without a combat log, it's all just guesswork. I was originally not going to post the query because I had no data to work with - but for the same reason figured I should ask if anybody else had encountered a similar situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesperr Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I have been favouring Defence over Shield, I might see about trying to balance that out more. I dump defense whenever I can because every piece of gear has that useless stat. Its affected too much by diminishing returns and much less reliable than shield+absorb (add to that that they both benefit from each other and that assassin has high shield chance due to dark ward and you get the picture). Try to find enchanments with low stamina but high shield and absorb, they exist and are really good for tankasin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battilea Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I have been favouring Defence over Shield, I might see about trying to balance that out more. I don't think it is just about balancing. The stats just seem a bit lower than they could be. My own assassin, with only a single piece of HM gear, that being Columni gloves, sits at a 36.24% shield chance and 43.49% absorb, while having more hp and defense than you. Now, I do have a mastercrafted earring and an advanced bracer, but, well, I don't think the problem is your defense, but something else you are taking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffz Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Well in BT there is a pac after the "extra" Boss that for some reason does drop assasins hp down even if they arn't in combat! I have done this with 2 assassins one as tank and one as dps and both lost alot of hp at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brakner Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) Just ran Hard Mode Black Talon and found that my health quite frequently shot down to half, even on non-boss fights. I know Assassin tanks aren't known for great mitigation (though I believe the general intention is that all tanks should ultimately have similar mitigation, overall). Before you say it, no I wasn't standing in fire or pulling five groups at a time and my gear was repaired after each death - yes, we wiped a couple of times after I suddenly lost a huge chunk of health. Stats follow: (buffed with what I've got on after just finishing the run, Mark of Power and Coordination) Health: 17520 Armor: 6490 Damage Reduction: 39.53% Defence Chance: 24.81% Shield Chance: 30.06% Shield Absorb: 32.59% This really shouldn't be happening, not on an early hard mode, surely. I don’t have an assassin so I am only speaking from Powertech point of view, but those numbers seem low to me. I have 50% resist, 16% def, 50% shield and 47% Absorb and 17,898 hp’s self buffed. I really don’t think the +8% def can make up for the -20% shield and absorb. I though Assassins got shield and absorb talents? Should at least one of those be higher? Edited February 8, 2012 by Brakner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dukibritches Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I don’t have an assassin so I am only speaking from Powertech point of view, but those numbers seem low to me. I have 50% resist, 16% def, 50% shield and 47% Absorb and 17,898 hp’s self buffed. I really don’t think the +8% def can make up for the -20% shield and absorb. I though Assassins got shield and absorb talents? Should at least one of those be higher? You make a good point, but if those stats reflect an Assassin without Dark Ward up, then you will need to add 15% shield chance because that should have 100% uptime. I think his shield chance is good, but he probably need more absorb. And as a fully geared assassin the DR% will still only be around 40%, Shield and Absorb probably around 50% each, and defense around 20-25%. Again this is for a fully Columni Geared Assassin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battilea Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) You make a good point, but if those stats reflect an Assassin without Dark Ward up, then you will need to add 15% shield chance because that should have 100% uptime. I think his shield chance is good, but he probably need more absorb. And as a fully geared assassin the DR% will still only be around 40%, Shield and Absorb probably around 50% each, and defense around 20-25%. Again this is for a fully Columni Geared Assassin. Dark Ward won't have a 100% uptime, it goes down fast at the start of a pull, because multiple mobs, lots of hits, and it only has 8 charges. Basically, when we need it most, when incoming damage is at its highest, it fails us. But, yeah, he definitely does need more absorb. My assassin with only 1 piece of HM+ gear has a higher shield and defense chance than his, as well as a 44% absorb. Edited February 9, 2012 by Battilea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibiza-Vin Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Dark Ward won't have a 100% uptime, it goes down fast at the start of a pull, because multiple mobs, lots of hits, and it only has 8 charges. Basically, when we need it most, when incoming damage is at its highest, it fails us. Well if you activate DW then wait a few seconds before pulling you should be able to recast it when it drops. By the time the second DW drops your dps should have killed 1 or 2 of the mobs. Granted, this won't work for the first pull in BT since you're thrust into combat right after a cutscene but that is also the hardest pull in the instance so don't be afraid to pop deflection or trinkets. But, yeah, he definitely does need more absorb. My assassin with only 1 piece of HM+ gear has a higher shield and defense chance than his, as well as a 44% absorb. To the OP, the above poster is right. You should try to get your absorption up to ~44% before you start stacking more shield rating. Edited February 9, 2012 by Ibiza-Vin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sithgrizley Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Here is a link to some excellent numbers about what values of stats you want and what to prioritize when. Assassin tanks CAN be nearly as spike free as the others but they have to work a little harder for it. The total damage taken over time is similar but Assassins rely more on avoidance and less on mitigation so an unlucky streak with the RNG will always be a danger. http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Sith-Assassin-Jedi-Shadow-Tanking-Compendium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battilea Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Well if you activate DW then wait a few seconds before pulling you should be able to recast it when it drops. By the time the second DW drops your dps should have killed 1 or 2 of the mobs. Granted, this won't work for the first pull in BT since you're thrust into combat right after a cutscene but that is also the hardest pull in the instance so don't be afraid to pop deflection or trinkets. Well, generally, gotta go faster! So no waiting But yeah, if one does have issues, taking a bit slower is the way to go. Also, unless I'm mistaken, buffs don't tick away during cutscenes. So you can just pop it prior to talking. Edited February 10, 2012 by Battilea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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