The Expertise stat has to go...

[Koopababy]

War is not fair, nor is it fun, but warzones which are going to be rated should be both fair and fun.

 

SWTOR is a game, and as such has rules and regulations. A military force does its best to always have the upper hand and never present a fair fight. In war, if you find yourself in a fair fight, something has gone terribly wrong.

 

Besides, if a Taliban fighter squared off with a SEAL, both using the same gear, who do you think would win out of pure skill?

 

It's no ones fault every mmo on the market offers pvp gear progression. We just work with the tools given to us. The amount of time most people spend crying about it, could already be online progressing towards that gear. Im not quite sure why anyone subscribed to this game thinking the pvp gear would be any different than it is on the other mmos. Regardless if someone has a life or not, a fresh 50 demanding he be on par with a individual who spends countless hours in pvp daily aquiring the gear to compete is ridiculous. These things apply in the real world as well like hippies wanting rich taxed more, or welfare people demanding that the working folk pay the way for them. You want something go earn it. Mmos are not call of duty/ gears of war on xbox. They have always been about progresson, and time spent equals better rewards. I would give up on MMo's if you cant see that.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Koopababy

[Noollig]

It's no ones fault every mmo on the market offers pvp gear progression. We just work with the tools given to us. The amount of time most people spend crying about it, could already be online progressing towards that gear. Im not quite sure why anyone subscribed to this game thinking the pvp gear would be any different than it is on the other mmos. Regardless if someone has a life or not, a fresh 50 demanding he be on par with a individual who spends countless hours in pvp daily aquiring the gear to compete is ridiculous. These things apply in the real world as well like hippies wanting rich taxed more, or welfare people demanding that the working folk pay the way for them. You want something go earn it. Mmos are not call of duty/ gears of war on xbox. They have always been about progresson, and time spent equals better rewards. I would give up on MMo's if you cant see that.

 

Earlier MMO's did not have any distinction between PvE and PVP gear, and one MMO in particular has a lot of people believing that it's normal and just "the way it is" in MMOs. Many MMOs before it had no PvP stats, and some after it also have no PvP gear.

 

This is a game, not a job, and I don't want it to feel like a job. I pay to play, not the other way around. I also don't want to run around owning people just because I have more gear than them. The majority of people who have all the best gear, have tons of time to play, but that doesn't make them more skilled than the guy who has a family and a job.

 

In the real world, a guy who sits at a desk for 10 years and does a mediocre job is going to be passed up for promotion time after time when the new blood contribute more to the projects and get noticed. Time invested does not equal skill, gear does not equal skill. I agree that time invested should equal rewards, but those rewards should not give one player an advantage over another in a Warzone, especially during rated matches.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Noollig

[ProtoRockMan]

Here's what I don't like about PvP specific stats.

 

First, there is no strategy or decision making involved in choosing the stat; everyone wants it. Whereas other stats involve some decision making about what kind of build you want, like choosing between crit chance or accuracy.

 

Second, all it serves is to create a barrier for entry to new players. You don't have expertise on every single piece of gear? Oh well, I guess you're going to spend hours getting killed and losing until you have it. This is the opposite of fun.

 

I didn't like it when they added resilience in WoW, and I don't like expertise in TOR.

[Koopababy]

I would rather have a system like in daoc. Realm rank abilities. But reality and dreaming are two different things. You know they will not remove expertise. That would make pve raid gear dominate in pvp. what sense is there in that? This game is not hard. I work full time and im a father and ive managed to hit valor 65 with most BM pieces playing casually. And im republic to boot on a server where imps outnumber us 3 to 1. Getting full champ in this game takes no effort. little less crying in the forums and a little more *** kickin in the game will get you there.

[EasternWind]

Earlier MMO's did not have any distinction between PvE and PVP gear, and one MMO in particular has a lot of people believing that it's normal and just "the way it is" in MMOs. Many MMOs before it had no PvP stats, and some after it also have no PvP gear.

 

This is a game, not a job, and I don't want it to feel like a job. I pay to play, not the other way around. I also don't want to run around owning people just because I have more gear than them. The majority of people who have all the best gear, have tons of time to play, but that doesn't make them more skilled than the guy who has a family and a job.

 

In the real world, a guy who sits at a desk for 10 years and does a mediocre job is going to be passed up for promotion time after time when the new blood contribute more to the projects and get noticed. Time invested does not equal skill, gear does not equal skill. I agree that time invested should equal rewards, but those rewards should not give one player an advantage over another in a Warzone, especially during rated matches.

 

Your distinction that time doesn't equate to skill is incorrect. The longer you do something, whether it's a desk job or something intricate like Brazillian Jiu jistu, it is natural to become skilled in some particular fashion simply because of repitition and time invested. This becomes even more appearent when you get new people in. Now, some people are just more naturally talented and thus, progress much faster and even surpase someone who's been doing the same thing for awhile.

 

Gear makes a difference, sure. It's especially appearent when you see the gap between a fresh 50 and a full champion equiped character. My personal opinion is that you'll be able to tell whether someone is skilled or not even with the gear imbalance. I've seen full on battlemasters that were pure garbage, and I've seen some fresh 50's that even though they died quicker, you could tell they knew what they were doing as far as utilizing their classes abilities and cooldowns.

 

 

I think it's fine as is. the biggest gap is fresh 50 to champion. Champ to BM is marginal in comparison.

[EasternWind]

I would rather have a system like in daoc. Realm rank abilities. But reality and dreaming are two different things. You know they will not remove expertise. That would make pve raid gear dominate in pvp. what sense is there in that? This game is not hard. I work full time and im a father and ive managed to hit valor 65 with most BM pieces playing casually. And im republic to boot on a server where imps outnumber us 3 to 1. Getting full champ in this game takes no effort. little less crying in the forums and a little more *** kickin in the game will get you there.

 

I agree, one of the things that kind of shocked me was the absense of realm abilities akin to DAOC and Warhammer.

[Natharon]

Translation" Guiz i r getting owned they have n advantage not fair!"

 

This is the same type of person that calls for a nerf profession thread because they died to it once.

[Noollig]

Here's what I don't like about PvP specific stats.

 

First, there is no strategy or decision making involved in choosing the stat; everyone wants it. Whereas other stats involve some decision making about what kind of build you want, like choosing between crit chance or accuracy.

 

Second, all it serves is to create a barrier for entry to new players. You don't have expertise on every single piece of gear? Oh well, I guess you're going to spend hours getting killed and losing until you have it. This is the opposite of fun.

 

I didn't like it when they added resilience in WoW, and I don't like expertise in TOR.

 

RIFT had the same issue too, and the only way they were able to fix it was to put the exact same amount of PvP stat on every tier of PvP gear, and make the first tier set of gear pretty much fully purchasable as soon as you hit 50, if you saved some currency.

 

That helped a good bit with survival, but the guys in the best PvP gear still effortlessly smash the new guys, who are required to endure hours/days of joyless PvP.

 

 

 

To clarify: I don't want PvP gear rewards removed. I would prefer expertise removed and PvP gear match stats of PvE gear. Then normalize stats in PvP so gear doesn't matter at all. A fresh 50 and a 70 valor 50 would have the same chance, and winners would be determined by skill, rather than gear. This is going to be especially important when rated warzones are released.

[sahrinity]

RIFT had the same issue too, and the only way they were able to fix it was to put the exact same amount of PvP stat on every tier of PvP gear, and make the first tier set of gear pretty much fully purchasable as soon as you hit 50, if you saved some currency.

 

That helped a good bit with survival, but the guys in the best PvP gear still effortlessly smash the new guys, who are required to endure hours/days of joyless PvP.

 

 

 

To clarify: I don't want PvP gear rewards removed. I would prefer expertise removed and PvP gear match stats of PvE gear. Then normalize stats in PvP so gear doesn't matter at all. A fresh 50 and a 70 valor 50 would have the same chance, and winners would be determined by skill, rather than gear. This is going to be especially important when rated warzones are released.

 

Then why even have pvp gear at all if it offers you no advantage. People grind pvp to get gear to gain even more advantage. Hell why not get rid of all gear and have everyones stats normalized, woo, then no one has any advantage except the skills they have. Then again why the hell would the majority of people keep playing. Gaining better loot is a motivator and reward system for many, if you don't like the specialized gear play counterstrike. Also making pvp gear = to pve gear takes the luster away from doing on or the other. You expect that as you do PVE and spend time learning and clearing the encounters that you will have access to gear that better suits pve. It would be very unfair to the people that have gotten pve gear through considerable time spent in a raid zone, to make pvp gear just as viable or vice versa. Personally I have both BM and rakata gear, if I had to work for it then so should everyone else.

[Elkard]

David vs. Goliath

 

Something needs to change, and that is certain. However, there is a cap of equality in any system that is devised to provide advantages--then connection speed and player ability, and a little luck, determine the outcome.

[Noollig]

My personal opinion is that you'll be able to tell whether someone is skilled or not even with the gear imbalance.

 

I agree, there is a gear imbalance.

 

So why would anyone want to play a game where they already know they have an advantage over other players? If they want PvP and PvE to be totally separate then they should have implemented a system more like GW or GW2.

[TipsyDrow]

Wow, really? They just made it so you get 15 centurion and like 7-8 champion commendations per bag, and people still complain that gear is too hard to get? Nerf it any harder and they will just be providing you with a full set of pvp gear when you hit level 50.

 

Another reason why forum access should be earned, and not provided.

 

Agree 100%

I didn't start pvping on my guardian till lvl 44. From lvl 44 to lvl 50 I earned enough comms start out with about 150ish expertise. Not great by any means, but made it so i wasn't utterly facerolled as long as I played smart and within the group. Two weeks after hitting lvl 50 (albeit 6 hours a day of pvp) I had mostly champ stuff with a few pieces of cent gear and 500 expertise.....really i see no reason people complain about getting geared for pvp. Just like raiding, please don't expect to have the best stuff and only do it casually.

[xxdragonragexx]

lol who keeps necroing this thread.

[Noollig]

Then why even have pvp gear at all if it offers you no advantage. People grind pvp to get gear to gain even more advantage. Hell why not get rid of all gear and have everyones stats normalized, woo, then no one has any advantage except the skills they have. Then again why the hell would the majority of people keep playing. Gaining better loot is a motivator and reward system for many, if you don't like the specialized gear play counterstrike. Also making pvp gear = to pve gear takes the luster away from doing on or the other. You expect that as you do PVE and spend time learning and clearing the encounters that you will have access to gear that better suits pve. It would be very unfair to the people that have gotten pve gear through considerable time spent in a raid zone, to make pvp gear just as viable or vice versa. Personally I have both BM and rakata gear, if I had to work for it then so should everyone else.

 

So you have full rakata and BM gear. Then by your own reasoning you will be quitting the game, right? You already have the best of everything and now have no motivation to work toward anything, so you have no reason to play.

 

 

Or is it that you actually have something that motivates you to play other than purely gear progression?

[xxdragonragexx]

So you have full rakata and BM gear. Then by your own reasoning you will be quitting the game, right? You already have the best of everything and now have no motivation to work toward anything, so you have no reason to play.

 

 

Or is it that you actually have something that motivates you to play other than purely gear progression?

 

A lot of people play this game for character progression. Doesn't have to be gear like titles for example but people need to feel their chars are improving or else they wil lquit

Edited February 24, 2012 by xxdragonragexx

[Noollig]

A lot of people play this game for character progression. Doesn't have to be gear like titles for example but people need to feel their chars are improving or else they wil lquit

 

Absolutely, but you agree that there are still things to do when you've attained all the gear you need.

 

I guess some people feel they need to have an advantage in order to win. I just prefer competitive gameplay over repetitive gameplay.

[sahrinity]

So you have full rakata and BM gear. Then by your own reasoning you will be quitting the game, right? You already have the best of everything and now have no motivation to work toward anything, so you have no reason to play.

 

 

Or is it that you actually have something that motivates you to play other than purely gear progression?

 

Nope I'm not quitting, I like to pvp for the sake of pvp, as a result of that I have gotten better gear. I was a big counterstrike fan too. I am waiting for 1.2 to come out and we are working on nightmare mode raids for the fun of it and for the titles. There are still plenty of things to accomplish. My observation is simply that gear progression drives alot of people to keep playing, or at least is a component of the formula for what brings so many to MMOs

[sahrinity]

Absolutely, but you agree that there are still things to do when you've attained all the gear you need.

 

I guess some people feel they need to have an advantage in order to win. I just prefer competitive gameplay over repetitive gameplay.

 

Also take the gear away and I'm sure I will still be successful in pvp, I mean in the 1-50 pvp I was still very competetive even without the BM gear. I am just saying that people like loot that gives them an edge. The folks that really love to pvp do/collect whatever gear it is so that their gear and skill together will make them a better player. Even if you remove expertise I suspect the good players will still be very good, in fact it would probably be even worse since currently expertise is the only thing normalizing players gear wise. Without that a player in rakata with some knowledge on how to play their class will tear apart a new 50. Well i guess then we can remove rakata gear too but where the hell does this end. PVP gear is exceptionally easy to get at this point, I don't see the issue with it.

[Noollig]

Nope I'm not quitting, I like to pvp for the sake of pvp, as a result of that I have gotten better gear. I was a big counterstrike fan too. I am waiting for 1.2 to come out and we are working on nightmare mode raids for the fun of it and for the titles. There are still plenty of things to accomplish. My observation is simply that gear progression drives alot of people to keep playing, or at least is a component of the formula for what brings so many to MMOs

 

Gear progression is a component of MMOs but not the main staple. Gameplay is what keeps players subbing, otherwise they will eventually max out and then leave for a new game anyway.

 

My argument is that the only way to accurately rate someone in a warzone is if gear is not an issue. Gear creates an imbalance that is fine for world PvP, but does not belong in rated matches.

 

Min/max players are mixing rakata gear into their sets for PvP. So in that case a player who only PvPs is at a disadvantage. How do you determine how to rate people unless the playing field is even?

[Spero-Mcgee]

Nope I'm not quitting, I like to pvp for the sake of pvp, as a result of that I have gotten better gear. I was a big counterstrike fan too. I am waiting for 1.2 to come out and we are working on nightmare mode raids for the fun of it and for the titles. There are still plenty of things to accomplish. My observation is simply that gear progression drives alot of people to keep playing, or at least is a component of the formula for what brings so many to MMOs

 

Indeed. And if youre done with 1 class, guess what there are 7 other adv. classes to enjoy.

That's also assuming that you're not going to try out the other faction as well.

Which despite the classes being mirrors of each other, you might still like one class's mirror better than it's other and vice versa.

[Noollig]

I'd be content if the rated matches normalized stats and everything else was left the same. Gearing is not difficult, and should be a component of the game. Rated matches, however, should be based on skill, not gear.

[Baalazar]

 

 

I'm not even mad.

 

Why did you make this so small?

[Burtlebe]

I hit 50 before really getting into the pvp aspect of the game. I am currently just getting into it. Ya it hurts but I take it with a grain of salt. I try to never attack someone solo when possible and do my part to help others. Its slow but not that bad, I have more a problem with the few folks on my side who like to belittle new 50s because they did not prepare so we could be leet soon as we hit 50. I just overlook them for the most part.

 

Just bear with it and remember how it felt so maybe once you get the good gear you wont feel the need to belittle a fresh lvl 50 who is trying.

 

As far as the stat goes, games need things to grind for or people will loose interest so I think the stat should stay.

[johnyangelo]

Have to say this:

 

One would think that getting full gear of best pvp set (BM) in game will be ultimate for pvp and I would have slight or bigger advantage compare to any PvE gear.

 

Well that's wrong and 700 expertise is useless compare to let's say 500exp and some rakata pieces.

[sahrinity]

Gear progression is a component of MMOs but not the main staple. Gameplay is what keeps players subbing, otherwise they will eventually max out and then leave for a new game anyway.

 

My argument is that the only way to accurately rate someone in a warzone is if gear is not an issue. Gear creates an imbalance that is fine for world PvP, but does not belong in rated matches.

 

Min/max players are mixing rakata gear into their sets for PvP. So in that case a player who only PvPs is at a disadvantage. How do you determine how to rate people unless the playing field is even?

 

Well ok, I do see your point, but I don't really agree with it. What rewards will people get for ranked matches if not pvp gear to make their character better. If the field is always even you will lose peoples interest. You are right though, gameplay does keep a player, but so does gear. You need both components along with a good social environment (plus other things I'm sure) to keep people going/draw people to an MMO. Take for example a world event, I'm sure alot of people, me included will go do whatever silly things they think of for a chance to have something that not many players have (like a pet). If you remove expertise from PVP I am pretty sure there will not be nearly as many players who actively pvp, most of the life in the warzones now is people grinding for BM, for a chance to get the gear that will make them have the best chances to win. The true equalizer is everyone getting the top tier gear, then pvp will be what you are talking about. Removing the top tier gear pvp stat just hurts the players that have worked for it and rewards the players that have not.