Thoughts on the state of PVP

[Hydrolix]

Flamers, you are not welcome in this thread. Your input in most other threads is meaningless and we don't want or need it here.

 

This thread I designate to be the place for constructive feedback so that the PVP system can be fixed. I hope that people will participate here with suggestions and commentary that are helpful and that might actually be taken into account by the Devs rather than ignored as inane flaming ramblings.

 

PVP has a problem. It isn't functioning "right." Let's figure out what that right should look like . Below are my observations, please read them thoroughly before you post and let's get a quality discussion going.

 

Unless I am mistaken, I am under the notion that the Devs have stated that they want this to be a fun game that players can play their way. Create their own unique stories and play experiences and customize their gear and look. I also understand them to be against grinding and to have hoped to have created a more fluid experience.

 

If these are true goals, then the state of PVP is even more broken than it would appear upon a cursory look.

 

As an example, I find world PVP to be exhilarating and fun. Sometimes you turn a corner and get wrecked by a group of 4 opposing factioners that you didn't see. Sometimes you sneak up on someone or vice versa, sometimes you end up in a knock-down, drag-out 1v1 fight that borders on being epic. Win or lose, it is usually very fun and almost always ends up being a story re-told in guild chat or on vent/mumble.

 

On the other hand, WZs wear on me fast. 3 maps, and gangs of enemies that way out gear me make what could/should be a fun head to head match into a zergfest of frustration.

 

I believe this experience is where the problems lies, and where most of the complaints about gear and the expertise stat, etc. are stemming from. I'm beginning to wonder if maybe those are the symptoms and the root is elsewhere.

 

Let me extrapolate. If I want to not get stomped in WZs I must get gear, to get gear I have only two choices...complete dailies/weeklies or grind WZ medals. As for dailies/weeklies, we get them for kills on Ilum or wins in WZs.

 

This is where I think the problem lies. As is, to get the gear I need to make the event fun, I MUST participate in the event and get killed repeatedly, which is very much not fun. This brings me back to the games "mission statement" and a question...why isn't there another way?

 

During beta merc commendations could be had by doing open world PVP, WZ commendations were for doing WZs. They were essentially equal in their purchasing power and could be traded in for one another at a slight penalty of 3 to 1. I don't know why these were taken out, but it presents a method of obtaining better PVP gear from a completely different play style (one that I enjoy more).

 

That right there would create a separate path for accomplishing the same goal of acquiring PVP gear, but it also brings up the customization problem. As it stands for right now, everyone is striving to get the exact same looking gear. Where are the customization options? Why couldn't crafters produce something of equal stature (and of equal difficulty to produce)?

 

So far, I've mostly asked questions centered on the theme of giving players the options to play how they want, but that doesn't address the issue most talked about directly. The disparity between a fully decked out battlemaster and your average joe new 50 rolling in to fight him. From my experience at this point, the odds of avg. joe winning this fight are 0%. I find this to be ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, a skilled player in this gear should kick butt, but a terrible PVPer in this gear should have the possibility of being defeated by a lesser geared and skilled PVPer.

 

I'm lead to the question of how a rakata geared player would fare against a battlemaster geared player. Theoretically, the gear stats should be similar and the only real difference the expertise. In this instance I feel like the battle should be able to go either way with the expertise stat merely giving an edge to the BM. But how does it really stand? The answer to this posited question should tell us whether the problem is with the expertise stat or merely the gear disparity.

 

As a quick sum, we all start as new 50s in whatever gear we arrived there in. That is point A. Point B has a character geared in a fashion that they can PVP effectively. There should be more than one road to get there. I've listed three possibilities including the only one that presently exists. Discuss...pose questions or solutions or relevant data (like the results of several bouts of players geared as above) anything that contributes to this conversation. Let's all put our heads together and sort out a way to fix this, because we all know that running around with a nerf bat in an already imbalanced system does no good.

[Flotsam]

Nope disagree with all you said.

 

World PVP is not fun 90% of the time. You can't balance it, you can't control it, and you can't plan for it.

 

Sure every now and then you get a gem of a battle, but most time it is either ganked or som pointless guard line battle.

 

WZ's are much easier to control, balance, and plan for... although they can become repetative when you have to do them to rank up...

 

 

... The only way I could possibly see Ilum working out is to have a 3rd faction of NPCs that side with the imbalance side.... you 5 to 1 imp forces now face massive NPC forces in additon to the sparce republic forces.

[NotARobot]

Population for the PVP area of Ilum needs to be capped at equal numbers.

 

Yes, its going to suck trying to get in for you imps, but at least it will be an EVEN fight for whoever is inside, which right now it absolutely isnt.

 

Ilum needs a goddamn change and I wish someone at bioware would at least say something about it

[erdadi]

As an example, I find world PVP to be exhilarating and fun. Sometimes you turn a corner and get wrecked by a group of 4 opposing factioners that you didn't see. Sometimes you sneak up on someone or vice versa, sometimes you end up in a knock-down, drag-out 1v1 fight that borders on being epic. Win or lose, it is usually very fun and almost always ends up being a story re-told in guild chat or on vent/mumble.

 

Totally disagree.

 

Man, you have not played Daoc or even WAR, it is totally clear.

 

What BioWare must do now is to take the Open PvP they have ATM, throw it to the trash, FIRE the current PvP lead designer, hire a new one (even a 16 years old teen will do it better) and re-design the Open World PvP. But they need to do it soon or this game will silk like the Titanic did.

[Hydrolix]

I wasn't saying that Ilum was some kind of save or god-send, rather that there should be a second option and that I personally preferred open world PVP to the WZs because of the imbalance. Were there less imbalance I'd probably have more fun in the WZs.

 

My initial proposal is that there be multiple ways to get the gear needed. You say you disagree, so by all means I'd love to hear some sound reasoning behind that rather than just a plain. Nope.

[goxwerd]

Nope disagree with all you said.

 

World PVP is not fun 90% of the time. You can't balance it, you can't control it, and you can't plan for it.

 

Sure every now and then you get a gem of a battle, but most time it is either ganked or som pointless guard line battle.

 

WZ's are much easier to control, balance, and plan for... although they can become repetative when you have to do them to rank up...

 

 

... The only way I could possibly see Ilum working out is to have a 3rd faction of NPCs that side with the imbalance side.... you 5 to 1 imp forces now face massive NPC forces in additon to the sparce republic forces.

 

 

 

isn't some of your issues with OPVP the appeal of it?

 

Constantly looking behind you ever few seconds running into someone. I agree in a popular MMO Opvp is tough on people because it usually turns into a zerg esp if zerging yields the best rewards.

 

 

I and i assume many pvpers enjoy it when pvp can just happen or just going into the world looking for someone to fight compared to a warzone where at least for me the pvp feels the same. Its rare to have a good pvp fight in a warzone esp the ToR zones due tothe design. Warzones are basically a tab target fest and non stop ability spam. Compared to the open world you are always mindful of your health, cooldowns etc.

 

 

Opvp only works if it is the main form of pvp in the game it never works if it is just something that is there with better rewards elsewhere(examples wow and rift).

 

No third faction is killer for Opvp but there are work arounds when you design the pvp areas. If ToR mimicked some OG Daoc instead of trying to recreated wintergrasp it could work better than what they have now.

[CrunchyGremlin]

Nope disagree with all you said.

 

World PVP is not fun 90% of the time. You can't balance it, you can't control it, and you can't plan for it.

 

Sure every now and then you get a gem of a battle, but most time it is either ganked or som pointless guard line battle.

 

WZ's are much easier to control, balance, and plan for... although they can become repetative when you have to do them to rank up...

 

 

... The only way I could possibly see Ilum working out is to have a 3rd faction of NPCs that side with the imbalance side.... you 5 to 1 imp forces now face massive NPC forces in additon to the sparce republic forces.

 

I agree with the instances.

 

Incorporating instances into the overall pvp would make instances mean something.

 

say for instance when some mission goal is owned on ilum a new instance is opponed up and after some number of wins on the instance something on ilum changes.

 

Then ilum needs to effect the whole game. i own all of the mission points i get something that lasts while i have own it and effects the whole server

 

Then we can get more factions in the game...

I believe... that SWTOR has something in mind for this.

republic vs empire.

light side vs dark side.

Separate goals basically achieving a third sort of faction.

 

They have also alluded to hutspace.

Edited February 2, 2012 by CrunchyGremlin

[Ancient_karp]

I'd love to see something like having control of Ilum opens up the Ilum dailies for your side, but that would be horrible on servers with large faction imbalance issues.

 

Seems that the first problem to overcome with world pvp is the realm imbalances. Second would be to generate the proper incentive to get a critical mass there.

[Roak]

problems with the current pseudo-open pvp in tor:

 

1. its not open world, it focusses the entire max level population of a server into one small map area

 

2. faction balance wasn't considered during development, if you are making a fixed faction game then ways to encourage/enforce balance must be in place before the game goes live. the other choice is to not make the game fixed faction at character creation and allow players to manage balance (this worked for swg in my experience)

 

3. the instance pvp gear grind should have been a totally separate entity from the world pvp, in its current guise the world pvp isn't, it is a pseudo warzone that goes towards the same progression as the other instanced pvp.

 

4. a content specific stat, if one is needed, should be on raid gear as gear progression for pve is the best way to do pve progression. Gear progression for pvp has never been a good idea and never will be.

[BrotherJohn]

1. hard cap on population for both sides to one ops maximum for both sides. after that a new shard of ilum opens up until its full. rinse and repeat procedure.

 

2. totally enclose both imp and repub main bases such that all members of both factions are forced to fly out to taxi point to engage in battle.

 

3. STOP THE DAMN SYSTEM MESSAGE SPAM. it would significantly decrease lag across the board PERIOD END OF STORY BIOWARE.

 

4. make capture points part of quest that will yield valor in some fashion so that both sides are going to fight to control those points.

 

5. to avoid mindless valor grinds either modify system to another form that i wont bother worrying about or significantly increase valor earned from both quests and kills. as it stands now the starter PvP gear is utterly a joke and even the champion is semi joke as well.

 

6. LAG LAG LAG LAG LAG even with these changes above you need to work on your damn code cause its HORRID right now. There should be next to no lag even on the over populated 60 plus instances of ilum right now when graphics are set to low under any system really. if i can 60 man a BF3 game on a small map where we are all in one spot then you should be able to do the same in swtor.

[Vewdo]

Nope disagree with all you said.

 

World PVP is not fun 90% of the time. You can't balance it, you can't control it, and you can't plan for it.

 

Sure every now and then you get a gem of a battle, but most time it is either ganked or som pointless guard line battle.

 

WZ's are much easier to control, balance, and plan for... although they can become repetative when you have to do them to rank up...

 

 

... The only way I could possibly see Ilum working out is to have a 3rd faction of NPCs that side with the imbalance side.... you 5 to 1 imp forces now face massive NPC forces in additon to the sparce republic forces.

 

 

WOW dude! I said the exact same thing to my guild the other night. Impliment a 3rd faction or for every 10 republics there should be a level 50 geared NPC to fight with them to help balance it out. Kudos my friend. Kudos

[BurnsTwoThree]

PvE gear should never compete with PvP gear, period.

 

 

World PvP is not fun, it's nowhere near fun. Have companions on passive during World PvP, possibly yes. But with companions World PvP is a joke.

 

 

 

Oh you're a new 50? You can't compete because being underskilled and undergeared just causes you to get demolished? Well boohoo. People who leveled before there were brackets had low levels against full Champion 50s and there was even less crying about it than there is now.

 

Learn your class, earn your gear and then you'll see that PvP is not broken. The only inadequacy is you.

[CrunchyGremlin]

I'd love to see something like having control of Ilum opens up the Ilum dailies for your side, but that would be horrible on servers with large faction imbalance issues.

 

Seems that the first problem to overcome with world pvp is the realm imbalances. Second would be to generate the proper incentive to get a critical mass there.

 

I had some ideas on that.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=264133

 

Basically a reverse incentive. When you own all of mission spots on Ilum something is given to the losing side.

An experience buff.

A bag item bonus (although this invites farming)

a crafting bonus.

maybe ilum missions for all levels that have capless valor and bag drops.

[CrunchyGremlin]

PvE gear should never compete with PvP gear, period.

 

 

World PvP is not fun, it's nowhere near fun. Have companions on passive during World PvP, possibly yes. But with companions World PvP is a joke.

 

 

 

Oh you're a new 50? You can't compete because being underskilled and undergeared just causes you to get demolished? Well boohoo. People who leveled before there were brackets had low levels against full Champion 50s and there was even less crying about it than there is now.

 

Learn your class, earn your gear and then you'll see that PvP is not broken. The only inadequacy is you.

 

Im all for gear grind IF they put in a drop or destruction system for the gear.

[Chesterinex]

The PvP in this game is severly lacking. On my server at 50, Ilum is a waste of time as hardly anyone is ever out there except to be searching for armaments. And WZs are 90% huttball. I'm so sick of huttball and bored of everything else that I haven't played my 50 toon in over 2 weeks.

 

Most of us are just waiting for our subscriptions to expire because we don't see them fixing what's currently there (or not there in this situation) anytime soon.

 

Yeah, something along the lines of Warhammer or DAOC would be awesome...there's no way they could implement something like that within a year though.

 

We're done here.

[CrunchyGremlin]

The PvP in this game is severly lacking. On my server at 50, Ilum is a waste of time as hardly anyone is ever out there except to be searching for armaments. And WZs are 90% huttball. I'm so sick of huttball and bored of everything else that I haven't played my 50 toon in over 2 weeks.

 

Most of us are just waiting for our subscriptions to expire because we don't see them fixing what's currently there (or not there in this situation) anytime soon.

 

Yeah, something along the lines of Warhammer or DAOC would be awesome...there's no way they could implement something like that within a year though.

 

We're done here.

 

 

Some of the changes could be done right now.

 

A very basic one would be to make the mission objective buff serverwide and in effect while holding the mission point.

Would have to add in an effect where the WZ bonus is not level capped or something along those lines.

Edited February 2, 2012 by CrunchyGremlin

[Hydrolix]

PvE gear should never compete with PvP gear, period.

 

 

World PvP is not fun, it's nowhere near fun. Have companions on passive during World PvP, possibly yes. But with companions World PvP is a joke.

 

 

 

Oh you're a new 50? You can't compete because being underskilled and undergeared just causes you to get demolished? Well boohoo. People who leveled before there were brackets had low levels against full Champion 50s and there was even less crying about it than there is now.

 

Learn your class, earn your gear and then you'll see that PvP is not broken. The only inadequacy is you.

 

Here is a great example of flaming. This is not helpful in any way. Your suggestion that I do something boring, un-fun and/or frustrating in a game that I play to have fun is ridiculous and absurd and makes me think that you are 9 years old. I have a job that fits the description of boring, un-fun and frustrating and I don't want to do that for my entertainment.

 

The Ilum discussion is interesting, but perhaps a different direction than I was hoping this talk would take. Ilum has all kinds of problems starting with that it is pointless (fight for control points for a 1 hour buff??) I was hoping for more thoughts on my suggestions that there be multiple paths to the goal of gearing up. Do people have other ideas or critiques of the possibilities I suggested. Does adding Merc comms back in unbalance the game in any way? What about crafters potentially being able to make expertise items?

 

Finally, I return to Mr. 9 year old flamer above and pose a question so that you may take the opportunity to turn your flame into production. You posit that PVE gear should never compete with PVP gear...why?

 

For clarification, I never suggested that they should necessarily, I just wondered out loud that in theory a PVE set should have similar stats to a PVP set and that would make for an interesting test of just how powerful (or not) the expertise stat really is.

 

I see no reason why a person who prefers PVE but wants to PVP with their guild now and again should be forced to grind out a second set of gear just to participate with any effectiveness and vice-versa. Maybe there is one, or some, someone please enlighten me.

[Hydrolix]

Im all for gear grind IF they put in a drop or destruction system for the gear.

 

Now, this is an interesting idea. I forgot that SWG did that. Gear degraded over time till it was unusable any more.

 

I'm not sure if that helps or hurts in the overall scheme of things. Thoughts anyone?

[Edex]

I agree a lot with what you said, i rather enjoy open world pvp. Altho i would point out there are other issues wrong with pvp. I would say resolve is number 1 on my list. Put all roots/snares/stuns/etc in this catagory would be quick easy fix. As for illium, i really think it needs to be made into a warzone, capped, or at the very least add npcs to guard points and make it more interesting. Aside from a quick zerg i tend to spend time just opening boxes and wandering around a vast open empty wasteland. Sure there are giant robots going pew pew at absolutely nothing.

[shaidarlol]

the problem with what your OP said is "the state of pvp" it should read "MY state of pvp" because most of the things you've said are strictly subjective. sure you may enjoy world pvp then the next guy doesn't. apparently you hate huttball, i on the other hand love huttball. you play huttball too much? well that's not really a pvp issue as much as a faction imbalance issue. so really if you want constructive critism or whatever, it's kind of hard because it isn't the pvp system that is the problem, it's your own personal view of the game.

[Hydrolix]

the problem with what your OP said is "the state of pvp" it should read "MY state of pvp" because most of the things you've said are strictly subjective. sure you may enjoy world pvp then the next guy doesn't. apparently you hate huttball, i on the other hand love huttball. you play huttball too much? well that's not really a pvp issue as much as a faction imbalance issue. so really if you want constructive critism or whatever, it's kind of hard because it isn't the pvp system that is the problem, it's your own personal view of the game.

 

 

Why is everyone so hung up on the open world PVP statement? I merely mentioned that I liked it more than WZs because of the frustrating grindfest that WZs have become. I made some suggestions about how to change that...how to create the unique game experience that this was touted to be...

 

Given the amount of whining and protesting going on in this forum it is quite clear that PVP isn't working properly. I want to talk about what will make it work right because I feel like the demand to nerf something to level the playing field is not the right move. I'd rather see multiple tracks to getting the desired result, in this case gear, so that everyone can enjoy the road to the end goal.

 

You like huttball. Great! Keep doing that, you'll have fun and it will get you where you want to go. But if I happen to hate huttball (not saying I do, just sake of argument) why should I be forced to play it to get where I want to go? Shouldn't I be able to so something that I enjoy and get there too?

[LordCrow]

Everything in modern mmorpg relay on grindfest... from one simple reason.... grindfest do not require any skills... only time.... and every kid have plenty of time but no skills (mostly)so... dont complain on the way ALL mmorpg's going on....

 

about this game..its new..hard to expect form no experienced mmo developer to create amazing huge world with advanced mechanics and deep theory crafting... what we got now is only something what supposed to work... and people could play and... pay...

 

how to make it better?

 

first of all before realesing this game developer supposed to look into different mmo's and see how people solved problems, gather some experience cause what we got here is just one big joke.... and topic like this one have no sense cause developer cant do all those changes players demand be realistic , look how this game looks like, totally simplified, grindfest farming mmo without any content which could bring here some hard core raiders....and mmo without them just have to die.... they cant fix this all....