We are the laughing stock of PvP

[DarthAgonus]

Just felt like sharing... http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=249945

 

So, not only does the mara's inadequacies split the community between a love/hate relationship of this class, but other classes, the ones with the most impartial criticism (being that they are not cry babies who need to "L2P") truly believe we are the bottom tier of PvP classes.

 

It's a joke in their eyes if one can't kill a mara or has trouble with them... sad pandas.

 

I read quotes like "Great PvP class" in regards to sorc/sage or Guard/Jugg (huttball) and think--a balanced PvP experience wouldn't have "Great" PvP classes. Maybe certain map advantages, but straight up better PvP selections... that's not cooooool.

 

So what are some clear disadvantages people are talking about... (I am not preaching nerf/buff classes here)

 

1. We are generally targeted first and ganked upon (being considered an easy kill)

2. We are not the highest DPS, yet we are strictly a dps class... sacrificing a shield (and Heavy Armor) for a second lightsaber that doesn't pay for itself in damage--The main hand being the primary damage dealer.

3. We are a melee dominate class, losing much opportunity to ranged, kiters, and players good at staying behind us (Force Scream hard to get off/interrupts Ravage) We also need to build rage to deal burst DPS (a pain when taking damage well before we get into melee range)

4. no CC's; no push/pulls

5. Priority rotations with difficult CDs and timings

 

We do have things to make up for some of these. We have decent mobility, interrupts (annihilation more so), and increased movement speed. But, the learning curve and skill required to be effective with this class is exaggerated comparatively. And even so, there is absolutely nothing a Skilled player can do against the cultural impact of being considered the easy kill.

 

No amount of Resolve mastery, mobility, and skill can answer 2 CC's and a world of burst DPS from 2+ PvPers singling a mara out (no I am not isolated going 1v3 I have my team, i am just the priority target)

 

Now, if this is to turn into a Nerf/Buff discussion, I want clean examples. If this is to turn into a L2P, bring it! I will pull more threads about how much we suck at PvP. Also, state your spec for the record.

 

I am Carnage BTW

[Sixball]

Carnage = eww -

 

Anni Mara, and do experience the "kill the DW squishy" from time to time.

 

Like you, figured a melee should be a front runner, have a decent DPS out-put and have utility to balance the lack of armor/CC/whatever...

 

Love my mara, so will hold on for further balances (bring on the heavy armor.. )

[EasymodeX]

And even so, there is absolutely nothing a Skilled player can do against the cultural impact of being considered the easy kill.

 

Incorrect. A skilled player can present themselves as a difficult kill. That is half of what makes a skilled player, skilled.

 

 

(no I am not isolated going 1v3 I have my team, i am just the priority target)

 

You see, I have a different experience. I am a priority target of skilled players because they know that I will wreck their team (or make a good show of it!). I am a low priority target of scrubs because "I'm just a Marauder".

 

 

I am Carnage BTW

 

Problem #1.

[MastaGigs]

I guard bot my anni marauder buddy, all i can say is not even my sniper in EGA could kill that fast.

 

I will agree that i put "GOOD" mar/sent at the top of my kill list not cause there weak but that they can wreck someone faster then you can save them if your CD are down. I really can not see how anyone can say its a bad class and not be trolling.

[DarthAgonus]

Incorrect. A skilled player can present themselves as a difficult kill. That is half of what makes a skilled player, skilled.

 

You see, I have a different experience. I am a priority target of skilled players because they know that I will wreck their team (or make a good show of it!). I am a low priority target of scrubs because "I'm just a Marauder".

 

Problem #1.

 

You Anni then? If this game was balanced, you wouldn't say something like Carnage Problem #1... it's supposed to be a DPS monster. Two friggin light sabers with great burst potential. Anni deals more DPS, they are supposed to be DoT.

[AcaciaDragon]

Incorrect. A skilled player can present themselves as a difficult kill. That is half of what makes a skilled player, skilled.

 

 

 

 

You see, I have a different experience. I am a priority target of skilled players because they know that I will wreck their team (or make a good show of it!). I am a low priority target of scrubs because "I'm just a Marauder".

 

 

 

 

Problem #1.

 

There is nothing wrong with Carnage.

[Stigas]

Nerf threads on the forums = proof that Marauders are bad.

 

Let's begin and end this thread there.

 

You're welcome.

[MastaGigs]

You Anni then? If this game was balanced, you wouldn't say something like Carnage Problem #1... it's supposed to be a DPS monster. Two friggin light sabers with great burst potential. Anni deals more DPS, they are supposed to be DoT.

 

But its not 100% balanced, not all trees are useful outside of theory IE my PT Advanced Prototype. Also more weapons does not mean more damage.

[DarthAgonus]

I guard bot my anni marauder buddy, all i can say is not even my sniper in EGA could kill that fast.

 

I will agree that i put "GOOD" mar/sent at the top of my kill list not cause there weak but that they can wreck someone faster then you can save them if your CD are down. I really can not see how anyone can say its a bad class and not be trolling.

 

Do you even play a Mara?

[Sabbathius]

1. We are generally targeted first and ganked upon (being considered an easy kill)

 

I'm generally targeted first, regardless of the class I play. I can't be allowed to run free, because I WILL ruin your day.

 

2. We are not the highest DPS, yet we are strictly a dps class... sacrificing a shield (and Heavy Armor) for a second lightsaber that doesn't pay for itself in damage--The main hand being the primary damage dealer.

 

We are not highest DPS? I don't know. Without combat logs it's hard to say, but I'm pretty sure my Mara has highest sustained DPS of any class I played so far. But a fairly considerable margin of 10-15%, at the minimum.

 

Shields are virtually useless in PvP. You'll see many tanks (especially Sin tanks) dropping it in favour of focus offhand. Armor is highly overrated as well, and heavy armor is but one step removed from medium. Go look at Deception Sins running around in light, and also in melee range with a lot less susained DPS if you want to see broken.

 

3. We are a melee dominate class, losing much opportunity to ranged, kiters, and players good at staying behind us (Force Scream hard to get off/interrupts Ravage) We also need to build rage to deal burst DPS (a pain when taking damage well before we get into melee range)

 

Maras are one of the few classes that is hard/impossible to kite. We do lose the ability to shoot from range. But we can cover 30m nearly instantly every 10-15 seconds, depending on spec this can be done twice back to back. Conveniently enough, our gap closer also generates rage for the initial burst.

 

4. no CC's; no push/pulls

 

Plenty of CC. Choke, AoE fear, slow, roots, slice droid. Any more than that, and the class might be overpowered.

 

Although, truth be told, I would LOOOOVE a pull spell with a 30m range, so I could set up delicious 1v1s. Yum... Too bad it's never going to happen.

 

5. Priority rotations with difficult CDs and timings

 

True. And I hoped when Bioware said they knew about it about a month ago they would actually...like...DO something about it? I guess I was expecting too much.

 

No amount of Resolve mastery, mobility, and skill can answer 2 CC's and a world of burst DPS from 2+ PvPers singling a mara out (no I am not isolated going 1v3 I have my team, i am just the priority target)

 

When 2-3 people single you down, you DIE. It doesn't matter what class you are. You're dead. D.E.A.D. Dead. As it should be. If you are being guarded and healed though, those people are in for some serious *** forking. It's called TEAMWORK. T.E.A.M. W.O.R.K. The 2-3 guys focusing you, they're doing it right. Your team letting you die does not.

 

P.S. Spec Annihilation.

[DarthAgonus]

But its not 100% balanced, not all trees are useful outside of theory IE my PT Advanced Prototype. Also more weapons does not mean more damage.

 

That's how they are promoted! Two lightsabers! to deal more damage. Juggs with Rage have higher damage output than a carnage.

[Lokkii-redd]

Carnage =X

 

I love my Anni mara, its not an easy class by any means to play and I've gotten frustrated by the "kill the squishy DW" but it can be very rewarding when you mop up the scoreboard in damage dealt.

 

A force pull would be amazing to take care of the sorcerers, but I really don't have any complaints.

 

[DarthAgonus]

I'm generally targeted first, regardless of the class I play. I can't be allowed to run free, because I WILL ruin your day.

 

When 2-3 people single you down, you DIE. It doesn't matter what class you are. You're dead. D.E.A.D. Dead. As it should be. If you are being guarded and healed though, those people are in for some serious *** forking. It's called TEAMWORK. T.E.A.M. W.O.R.K. The 2-3 guys focusing you, they're doing it right. Your team letting you die does not.

 

P.S. Spec Annihilation.

 

You tie this into the cultural impact of being the easy kill and that 2-3 v 1 happens more often than not.

 

In regards to charge. I finding using it to initiate the attack a poor move, cause we will be pushed almost instantly or cc'd then kited. we have a speed boost, and if it was a 1v1 world. NP. We can usually beat any class on attrition alone... but! Tie in "easy kill again" targeted by tracers and lightning and more...

[Sixball]

That's how they are promoted! Two lightsabers! to deal more damage. Juggs with Rage have higher damage output than a carnage.

 

^ This..

 

Good Balance would be to let more Mara skills utilize damage from BOTH weapons

 

Hell, or give the OH weapon higher chance to parry/deflect.

 

Watch Spartacus, check out Iado (since Jedi/Sith are Saumrai-based) - DW always prevails - More damage in the same time frame, both weapons block, deflect, parry, kill...

 

Just saying.

[DarthAgonus]

Also, haters can make this about me, but I haven't played against .00001% of the SWTOR community that believe we are terrible. Those "fear inducing" players should create threads with PvP tactics and gear before trolling.

[Pappus]

On my server I am getting stunned by sorcs before I charge. Once I am stunned they force speed and run away.

 

It has been a long time since I can remember someone in my bgs voluntarily going 1on1 vs me.

 

I quadra slap those common sorcs, jugger, other marauders before I finish them with a breeze and not I don't have pockethealers, but yesterday I got pocketguard, which is hilarious what the freshly 50 powertech and me do to the other team.

 

I can only advise you, start over with your mara. Don't assume he sucks and take several reads on my guide especially when he is finished.

 

It ain't easy to play the marauder to compete with the best you need to know what they can do, when they will do it and so on.

[DarthAgonus]

^ This..

 

Good Balance would be to let more Mara skills utilize damage from BOTH weapons

 

Hell, or give the OH weapon higher chance to parry/deflect.

 

Watch Spartacus, check out Iado (since Jedi/Sith are Saumrai-based) - DW always prevails - More damage in the same time frame, both weapons block, deflect, parry, kill...

 

Just saying.

 

I've heard this mentioned before. A ranged parry boost would be awesome. Deflect blaster bolts like real force users!

[DarthAgonus]

 

I can only advise you, start over with your mara. Don't assume he sucks and take several reads on my guide especially when he is finished.

 

It ain't easy to play the marauder to compete with the best you need to know what they can do, when they will do it and so on.

 

Thanks for the link

[Aztian]

IF AC respec is coming.. i am going jugg thats for sure....

 

no reason to play this class.. sure we can do damage if we can deliver it , and thats the point

try to get target by a BM merc and 3 missile hit you 50% health, stealth 4 sec, stunned by a sorc other sniper target you 6000 crit the problem is if you don't have a pocket healer with you . your dead

[MastaGigs]

That's how they are promoted! Two lightsabers! to deal more damage. Juggs with Rage have higher damage output than a carnage.

 

So far all i can gather from you is, I wana play how i want and it should be the best way to do it. I would love to play my sniper like a sniper, Fact is you cant as your a sitting duck thus a free kill. Learn to adapt, if your current spec is not up to par then deal or get one that is.

 

Marauders are freaking amazing when played right, i personally know 2 that roflstomp anything short of being outnumbered. Sadly it is a l2p issue with most of them, not that there bad players they just have yet to grasp how to do it right.

[DarthAgonus]

IF AC respec is coming.. i am going jugg thats for sure....

 

no reason to play this class.. sure we can do damage if we can deliver it , and thats the point

try to get target by a BM merc and 3 missile hit you 50% health, stealth 4 sec, stunned by a sorc other sniper target you 6000 crit the problem is if you don't have a pocket healer with you . your dead

 

Pockethealers can't keep up with the squish... haha. I like the pocketguard mentioned above. I have a guildmate who may be willing.

[DarthAgonus]

So far all i can gather from you is, I wana play how i want and it should be the best way to do it. I would love to play my sniper like a sniper, Fact is you cant as your a sitting duck thus a free kill. Learn to adapt, if your current spec is not up to par then deal or get one that is.

 

The only thing bioware got right in their description of the class at CharCreation was agile. I know how to play the Mara, i had some very awesome games. This wasn't a rant fest of my own shortcomings. It was of the class as a whole. Skill doesn't make up for literally being CC'd and ganked before able to press a button.

 

If I am a threat to be reckoned with, well then the WHOLE 100% SWTOR community are very effective of snuffing me out... That's bull man. You aren't targeted because you are bad*** you are targeted because of the prejudice that Mara's are weak.

 

Read some other forums. See what outsiders are saying.

[EasymodeX]

There is nothing wrong with Carnage.

 

Carnage has fundamental execution issues. It's only viable in a premade against premades. In any other circumstance, it's significantly weaker than Annihilation or Rage.

 

Since the original topic of this thread, "QQMarauderQQ" is worthless, let's discuss Carnage.

 

Why Carnage fails in general and in pug gameplay in particular:

 

1. All of Carnage damage is direct damage staggered by the GCD. Each notable segment of Carnage damage happens 1.5s apart from the next attack (Berserk'd Massacres aside).

 

Contrast: The big hitters of Annihilation cast be unloaded simultaneously, in a single GCD. They are DOTs. 80% of Anni's damage can be applied in 40% of contact time. You DS, Rupture, Annihilate, and boom that is 80% of the spec's damage. Due to the DOT nature, and particularly the mechanics of DS, this also synchronizes an automatic burst effect: Deadly Saber hits 3 stacks with Rupture ticking, with Annihilate thrown at the same time.

 

For Rage spec, the majority of the damage (perhaps 70% of the spec's damage) is unloaded via Crush and Smash (and Choke/Rupture and Smash). The damage methodology is similarly "DELAYED BURST". In addition, the abilties are usable at 10m range, drastically increasing the effective contact time of the spec.

 

Functional result: Both Annihilation and Rage can "JOUST" much more effectively (or otherwise make effective use of touch-and-go contact time), in addition to having automatically timed burst sequences.

 

Also, Carnage becomes WAY more healable than Annihilation or Rage.

 

2. The damage is highly RNG-based. Due to the crit damage talent "balancing" the tree by applying to 90% of the damage output of Carnage, the effectiveness of the Carnage spec relies on getting crits.

 

Contrast: Rage is somewhat streaky on crits, but at least Smash autocrits. Force Scream autocrits for Combat, however Force Scream is a much smaller contributor to damage for Combat than Smash is for Rage.

 

Annihilation has very, very stable damage output and cyclical bursts. Next patch it may be more sporadic with the crit damage change, but we'll see.

 

3. Gore enhances the above problems. Not only does the spec rely on RNG for any burst and demand high contact time for total DPS, but it also applies a very narrow execution window for its other scaling vector, the armor pen. The best part is that the GCD from using Gore itself already blows 25% of its buff duration, along with Gore's high cost: 3 Rage and a GCD. It's one of the most expensive Marauder abilities, does dick for damage, and gives effectively a 33% damage buff for 3 GCDs. (note: in other words it gives you 1 free attack, except it costs 50% more than a Massacre and telegraphs your intent given how alarming the animation and sound effect is to observant enemy players).

 

4. Fury generation and Berserk. Berserk's duration and the general Fury generation rate in Carnage exacerbates the "narrowness" and unreliability of the spec's damage output. If the stars align, Carnage can achieve the hardest burn in the game: mostly full rage bar, 30 Fury, Gore, no enemy cc during gore, all relics and adrenals up, and an unusually high crit chance. Sure, you can nail 3500+ Massacres every GCD for 4 seconds with a 4500 Force Scream to top it off.

 

However, the entire execution of that is susceptible to enemy interference, unreliable from RNG, and resource intensive due to the general "rarity" of Fury in the spec. Oh, and Combat generates less Rage than Annihilation.

 

And, this execution is still less burst in 1 GCD than Rage.

 

5. Defense. Carnage is the softest mother****ing spec. No heal ticks, no 7% damage reduction. No 4% elemental/internal reduction. This means you need to take exceptional care to blow cooldowns and kite / joust opponents to survive. This makes observation #1 even worse. Not only does the spec get seriously impacted by enemy kiting or your own jousting, but the spec supports a high-contact requirement WORSE than Anni or Rage.

 

6. CC spam and ****** resolve. While on the bright side, the CC and resolve spam means that your resolve-bypassing root on Deadly Throw is comedy *********** gold in Huttball as the whitebarred ball carrier is walking over that fire pit, it also means that no one gives a **** about that extra Nth random CC. Particularly the healer you want to kill that is already whitebarred from your teammates' CC and/or your own Roar and Choke. This is where Annihilation gets a distinct advantage with its Resolve-immune serious-mode-suppression-called-interrupt-spam.

 

7. CC spam and ****** resolve. Part 2, where your narrow fragile window of intense burn DPS execution can be cut short by a plethora of random CC being throw around. Even 1 GCD lost to a CC will negate almost half your Gore window, and put your Berserk stacks at risk from expiration.

 

 

TLDR: Carnage's DPS is too fragile. Carnage's durability is too fragile. When Carnage's DPS actually goes off, it is staggered across GCDs.

 

Carnage spec demands team support, and its specific utility (resolve-bypass root, fast target swap instant burst) is only relevant against strong teams. Carnage's only 'niche' is in a premade against other premades. And in that context it is only 'competitive' with the other specs.

Edited February 2, 2012 by EasymodeX

[Hoseman]

Just felt like sharing... http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=249945

 

So, not only does the mara's inadequacies split the community between a love/hate relationship of this class, but other classes, the ones with the most impartial criticism (being that they are not cry babies who need to "L2P") truly believe we are the bottom tier of PvP classes.

 

It's a joke in their eyes if one can't kill a mara or has trouble with them... sad pandas.

 

I read quotes like "Great PvP class" in regards to sorc/sage or Guard/Jugg (huttball) and think--a balanced PvP experience wouldn't have "Great" PvP classes. Maybe certain map advantages, but straight up better PvP selections... that's not cooooool.

 

So what are some clear disadvantages people are talking about... (I am not preaching nerf/buff classes here)

 

1. We are generally targeted first and ganked upon (being considered an easy kill)

2. We are not the highest DPS, yet we are strictly a dps class... sacrificing a shield (and Heavy Armor) for a second lightsaber that doesn't pay for itself in damage--The main hand being the primary damage dealer.

3. We are a melee dominate class, losing much opportunity to ranged, kiters, and players good at staying behind us (Force Scream hard to get off/interrupts Ravage) We also need to build rage to deal burst DPS (a pain when taking damage well before we get into melee range)

4. no CC's; no push/pulls

5. Priority rotations with difficult CDs and timings

 

We do have things to make up for some of these. We have decent mobility, interrupts (annihilation more so), and increased movement speed. But, the learning curve and skill required to be effective with this class is exaggerated comparatively. And even so, there is absolutely nothing a Skilled player can do against the cultural impact of being considered the easy kill.

 

No amount of Resolve mastery, mobility, and skill can answer 2 CC's and a world of burst DPS from 2+ PvPers singling a mara out (no I am not isolated going 1v3 I have my team, i am just the priority target)

 

Now, if this is to turn into a Nerf/Buff discussion, I want clean examples. If this is to turn into a L2P, bring it! I will pull more threads about how much we suck at PvP. Also, state your spec for the record.

 

I am Carnage BTW

 

i agree.

 

But ill say one thing about carnage, until they fix all the false execution and ability delay issues this spec will never beat out annihilation on raw damage. It does however have increasingly higher burst when compared to annihilation.

[DarthAgonus]

Carnage has fundamental execution issues. It's only viable in a premade against premades. In any other circumstance, it's significantly weaker than Annihilation or Rage.

 

 

Thanks for the run-down and in depth response. I appreciate it.