DarthCnox Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I'm not joking. These latest changes, it's like, the desiner is saying 'I don't like the way these players are having fun with the game, so I think if I add more talent dependencies, only let certain procs trigger in certain stances, I think then they will play the way i want them to play.' This brings back memories of abuse from EQ: 'Make them stare at a book for 5 minutes to recover mana'. Or WoW: 'Let's let them burn all their rage to switch to defensive stance'. So, please find a new guy, this guy is a masochist. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominickz Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 ^seconded were actually an advanced class that needs buffs not nerfs yet they decide to make us on the verge of deadweight? *** BIOWARE. our survivability is ****** (light armor means your damage is supposed to make up for the low survivability) our damage is laughable (operatives do more damage have WAAAY more survivability and wear leather) and you intend to Nerf us? really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabbathius Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Well, they made Darkness more viable than it was before. Though I foresee a lot of QQ when Sins start healing themselves for 12% with uninterruptible lightning quite often. The other trees? Madness looks a little better. Deception? It was a joke, and it's still a joke. No change, really. They did kill two hybrid builds, but we knew that already from the tooltips. So no shock there, pun intended. Bottom line, I really don't think Bioware knows that the heck they're doing. I'm looking at Marauder changes, and THAT'S what they think will help the class? I doubt more than 5% of players will even be to notice the miniscule DPS increase (if any). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxification Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Marauders are going to get a helpful DPS increase of 8% to their bleeds. Which make up a substantial amount of their dps. Additionally their bleeds deal proper crit damage. Not sure how much this will affect their dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabbathius Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Marauders are going to get a helpful DPS increase of 8% to their bleeds. Which make up a substantial amount of their dps. Additionally their bleeds deal proper crit damage. Some guys did the math, and it could actually be a nerf to DPS. See the test server forum. I haven't looked into it myself, it's past midnight here and I'm asleep, but looks solid at a glance. Not sure how much this will affect their dps. Annihilation? Probably a bit. Maybe 1-3% overall DPS increase. It doesn't solve ANY of the problems plaguing the class though, like ludicrously complex rotations, overdependence on defensive cooldowns and all the rest of it. When a few weeks back, when they were buffing Juggs, they said they recognized Marauder rotation was a mess and they needed some quality of life changes...silly me...I actually believed them! Back to the Sins though. Someone on PvP forum said something that really resonated with me. With Guild Wars 2 coming this year, probably in summer, Bioware doesn't have much time. So they will cater as much as they can to the most played classes, to retain the max number of subs. That means no nerfs to Sorcerers, Mercs and other popular classes. And nerfs or tweaks to everything else. Sins were never the most played class, so messing around with the class isn't going to result in many ragequits. And they HAVE to mess with someone, otherwise what are they going to put in the patch notes? So...yeah. Not happy. But at leas they haven't wrecked Powertechs yet. So I can at least play that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSLlolz Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) Well, they made Darkness more viable than it was before. Though I foresee a lot of QQ when Sins start healing themselves for 12% with uninterruptible lightning quite often. The other trees? Madness looks a little better. Deception? It was a joke, and it's still a joke. No change, really. They did kill two hybrid builds, but we knew that already from the tooltips. So no shock there, pun intended. Bottom line, I really don't think Bioware knows that the heck they're doing. I'm looking at Marauder changes, and THAT'S what they think will help the class? I doubt more than 5% of players will even be to notice the miniscule DPS increase (if any). Dude, you HAVE to lay off your hate against Deception... Just because you suck on Deception because it's probably not your playstyle and/or you actually used surgung charge instead of dark charge, doesn't mean the tree is broken or a joke. Just stop it, I see you posting your nonsense in other topics about Deception, just stop and think for a minute. And yes, the change that Deception is getting actually WILL break the tree and make it a joke. (for PvP) Seriously, Pure Deception assassins are dead meat without Dark charge, and this DIOTIC designer takes it away.... I totally agree with OP, this is outrageous. I can understand why they wanna kill hybrid trees, BUT THEY ARE ACTUALLY JUST KILLING A WHOLE DEEP TREE by doing it. Bioware, I'm seriously losing faith in you very fast... I'm starting to regret buying a gamecard. I've already stopped playing my operative as it's no fun anymore, but I can still have fun with my Dec Assa, AND YOU DO THIS??? WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU!!!! Focus on adding more endgame content, not fixing stuff, THAT ISN'T BROKEN! PS. Dont't compare Dec Assas to Marauders, we deal much less dmg than marauders in WZs, and they have medium armor. Take away Dark charge, and we still have less damage, AND NO SURVIVABILITY AT ALL! Because we have light armor. Get it? Post patch Marauder will have more damage AND more survivability than Dec assassins. (I have no problem with Marauders, they deal more damage, but we have a fighting chamce since we have a bit more survivability... That is, for now... God help us if they roll with these idiotic patchnotes for live patch...) Edited February 2, 2012 by TSLlolz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lina_Inverse Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) I'm sorry but I don't corroborate that this breaks deception in any way, shape, or form. If you were sitting in dark charge I believe that should be changed. The spec is built around using surging charge and if the developers want to ensure that it does that's fine. I don' tthink that this was the target of the nerf. I think they wished to nerf some tank/hybrid builds to ensure that you couldn't combine the strong defense and utility with high offense from other trees. I'm not sure if it's fine that they do this, since I don't play tank hybrid, I play deception, but you have to deal with it. I don't feel that the defenses or utility of the class(as dps) are adequate compared to some of the other melee dps defenses, but if this turns out to be the case the class will come out stronger because of this particular nerf due to eventually rebuffing. The biggest change was to the fun/skill level of the spec that came with stance dancing to better survive sustained damage and protect your healer a bit in a dps spec. Utility that is being taken from this dps class but remains unchanged for the powertech and juggernaut. It's unfortunate that this little bit of dynamic fun is being removed, but again I'm confident if the class is lacking after this change that it will come out stronger and hopefully before rated bgs are released. Even before this change I felt that other melee were a stronger for group settings, and now that this particular defense and utility is being removed, assassin has become less valuable in the role of melee dps in groups. In general I find it unfortunate that they are encouraging playing full tank so hard with this class, as that isn't why I played it. Currently I am feeling my marauder is much stronger offensively and utility-wise in a group setting, despite my long experience with assassin/shadow and how much fun it was to play at certian points during the beta. It has sadly become a far more rigid class dps wise and as it continues to grow that way and I am enjoying it far less than I should be. Edited February 2, 2012 by Lina_Inverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElitehunterDS Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 weird after reading the last part of : Deception Induction: Now requires the Surging Charge skill to be purchased and requires that Surging Charge is active in order to trigger the Induction buff. This skill now also triggers from Assassinate. Oh a very small buff, nothing worth crying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nocorras Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Lul at dark charge nerf making deception 'unplayable. ' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azgrey Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 weird after reading the last part of : Deception Induction: Now requires the Surging Charge skill to be purchased and requires that Surging Charge is active in order to trigger the Induction buff. This skill now also triggers from Assassinate. Oh a very small buff, nothing worth crying People are pissed because most Deception Assassins would throw on a shield off-hand and use Dark Charge or stance dance to gain some durability. This makes it so you are not able to do that any longer.....not to mention that stance dance would now cost 100 force a whack. It's just absurd to me that this is what they decide to focus on rather than fixing some of the bigger issues in the game. Why don't we tinker with a middle of the pack class, that deserves a buff according to most opinions, and gut it's hybrid possibilities, phase out the majority of it's pvp specs and pigeon hole it's roles. What these guys are smoking at the Dev meetings is anyone's guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GruulTapul Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) People are pissed because most Deception Assassins would throw on a shield off-hand and use Dark Charge or stance dance to gain some durability. This makes it so you are not able to do that any longer.....not to mention that stance dance would now cost 100 force a whack. It's just absurd to me that this is what they decide to focus on rather than fixing some of the bigger issues in the game. Why don't we tinker with a middle of the pack class, that deserves a buff according to most opinions, and gut it's hybrid possibilities, phase out the majority of it's pvp specs and pigeon hole it's roles. What these guys are smoking at the Dev meetings is anyone's guess. Stance dance is generally wothless anyway for a pure deception Assassin, you have none of the added benefits from dark charge and you loose 50 Force and on top of that you don't regenerate any force from procs anymore and you loose the internal damage proc. I'm not so sure this is worth it for some armor. If the enemy focuses you, you're dead anway, if not you would have survived in surging charge as well. Better to use one of your semi bubbels and get out if you really need to. Also, you loose the surging charge discharge, which is probably the most useful deception skill anway. Edited February 2, 2012 by GruulTapul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kijthae Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I tried but nobody cared http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2092834#post2092834 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lina_Inverse Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) weird after reading the last part of : Deception Induction: Now requires the Surging Charge skill to be purchased and requires that Surging Charge is active in order to trigger the Induction buff. This skill now also triggers from Assassinate. Oh a very small buff, nothing worth crying I honestly don't get this, as if you are playing deception(i.e., the only spec that should be in surging charge) you have to use voltaic before you shock anyway for the damage increase. Edited February 2, 2012 by Lina_Inverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldhugs Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) I suspect that these changes are culled from BioWare's aggregate warzone observations and my worry is that they are missing a critical point of data. The 27/14/0 darkness spec I personally play can certainly draw attention; when played effectively you are a medal earning machine and can escape incredible odds to turn the tide of battle often. Not only does this style of play require a high skill cap but it has one major prerequisite for it to be effective: a guarded healer that you are actively working with to protect. My guess is that this little bit is what's being overlooked and preempting action that might not be warranted. Darkness 27/14 in DPS gear can put out a solid amount of pressure. Burst is not at all our forte but control, incredible peels, and sustained pressure are what we bring to the table when paired with a high synergy healer. Running solo you quickly find that your survivability isn't that of a proper tank in tank gear and your ability to pressure is consequently hindered a great deal. That's a fair tradeoff in my book, and one that doesn't offset the balance severely because you are dependent on another player. Part of this problem manifests itself simply because defense, shield, and absorb rating are of very low value in PVP. Given the focus in the darkness tree toward shielding you can see why most PVP darkness assassins co-opted DPS gear. The tides shift when you work together with a healer and communicate effectively. I'd wager that a 27/14 darkness sin is the best peeler in the game. You have many tools to keep your healer alive, but blowing them all means you limit your ability to pressure as well. Our pressure comes in part from some of those same tools. When you lack the burst potential (as we should since we chose to play a hybrid spec) you must rely on well timed stuns, snares, grips, etc in order to keep on your target/interrupt healing long enough to chip away at your enemy's health pool. As it stands this means you are an effective utility player. Not able to endure as long as a traditional tank, nor able to put out strong enough burst to score quick kills, but of great value when paired with an appropriate supporting healer and smart use of your abilities. In all my experience in MMOs I think the tor assassin is actually one of the best balanced classes when compared to the others in this game. The hybrid specs, while effective, definitely come with tradeoffs that you have to base your playstyle around. That's exactly how it should work. The best way I can articulate this is to say that switching from deception to 27/14 was a conscious choice on my part for two important reasons: I regularly PvP with a healer friend who gets heavily focusedI wanted to play a spec that gave me more opportunities to capitalize on enemy mistakes at the expense of much less damage While I won't say the proposed changes will destroy our class or anything as extreme as that, I will say that clearly this is an attempt to steer us toward our 31 pt talents. Personally, I'd rather they make the 31 pt talent more appealing if that's the desired goal, but I can understand how this might upset balance in the process. However, I will say that if these changes go live, there should really be some serious investigation into the darkness assassin's pvp tanking viability and the defense/shield/absorb rating effectiveness on the gear meant to support it. I suppose I should mention the obvious; that the big killer here for 27/14 is the lack of induction outside surging charge. Without the force efficiency granted by this your ability to pressure at all is hindered severely. Edited February 2, 2012 by Coldhugs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylvatica Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 could you link the 27/14 build? I'm currently using 23/18.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nilxain Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) I'm not joking. These latest changes, it's like, the desiner is saying 'I don't like the way these players are having fun with the game, so I think if I add more talent dependencies, only let certain procs trigger in certain stances, I think then they will play the way i want them to play.' This brings back memories of abuse from EQ: 'Make them stare at a book for 5 minutes to recover mana'. Or WoW: 'Let's let them burn all their rage to switch to defensive stance'. So, please find a new guy, this guy is a masochist. Thanks. I Agree man, and they didn't even buff creeping terror. So, now the hybrid spec is broken and the actual (madness) spec still has an underpowered 31pt talent. GG. Edited February 2, 2012 by Nilxain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyorll Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 People are pissed because most Deception Assassins would throw on a shield off-hand and use Dark Charge or stance dance to gain some durability. This makes it so you are not able to do that any longer.....not to mention that stance dance would now cost 100 force a whack. It's just absurd to me that this is what they decide to focus on rather than fixing some of the bigger issues in the game. Why don't we tinker with a middle of the pack class, that deserves a buff according to most opinions, and gut it's hybrid possibilities, phase out the majority of it's pvp specs and pigeon hole it's roles. What these guys are smoking at the Dev meetings is anyone's guess. ^ This. 100% agree with this post. So disappointing. I just paid a 3 month subscription and am regretting it. I am pissed that I didn't just go with the 1 month sub... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nilxain Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 People are pissed because most Deception Assassins would throw on a shield off-hand and use Dark Charge or stance dance to gain some durability. This makes it so you are not able to do that any longer.....not to mention that stance dance would now cost 100 force a whack. It's just absurd to me that this is what they decide to focus on rather than fixing some of the bigger issues in the game. Why don't we tinker with a middle of the pack class, that deserves a buff according to most opinions, and gut it's hybrid possibilities, phase out the majority of it's pvp specs and pigeon hole it's roles. What these guys are smoking at the Dev meetings is anyone's guess. ^agree 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVenizen Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I Agree man, and they didn't even buff creeping terror. So, now the hybrid spec is broken and the actual (madness) spec still has an underpowered 31pt talent. GG. they need to at least double the damage creeping terror does, it's so bad right now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 they need to at least double the damage creeping terror does, it's so bad right now... Ab-so-lute-ly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldhugs Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) could you link the 27/14 build? I'm currently using 23/18.. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200rsMokrskrZhGbMk.1 I use survivor's gear with all the mod/enh replaced with the ones from stalker's set. Edited February 2, 2012 by Coldhugs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVenizen Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I tried but nobody cared http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2092834#post2092834 too many of those ideas have pvp specific changes, a lot of them are pretty bad IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nilxain Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 they need to at least double the damage creeping terror does, it's so bad right now... ^ yeah it's currently in a sad state, and now we won't have the maul burst :-( Things are looking grim ATM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVenizen Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 ^ yeah it's currently in a sad state, and now we won't have the maul burst :-( Things are looking grim ATM. If not double the damage then add in a base damage and lower the duration, thereby boosting the damage it does in a shorter amount of time. Basically make it a better version of crushing darkness (costs less force, is a root, and does ~ equal damage) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamernator Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I suspect that these changes are culled from BioWare's aggregate warzone observations and my worry is that they are missing a critical point of data. The 27/14/0 darkness spec I personally play can certainly draw attention; when played effectively you are a medal earning machine and can escape incredible odds to turn the tide of battle often. Not only does this style of play require a high skill cap but it has one major prerequisite for it to be effective: a guarded healer that you are actively working with to protect. My guess is that this little bit is what's being overlooked and preempting action that might not be warranted. Darkness 27/14 in DPS gear can put out a solid amount of pressure. Burst is not at all our forte but control, incredible peels, and sustained pressure are what we bring to the table when paired with a high synergy healer. Running solo you quickly find that your survivability isn't that of a proper tank in tank gear and your ability to pressure is consequently hindered a great deal. That's a fair tradeoff in my book, and one that doesn't offset the balance severely because you are dependent on another player. Part of this problem manifests itself simply because defense, shield, and absorb rating are of very low value in PVP. Given the focus in the darkness tree toward shielding you can see why most PVP darkness assassins co-opted DPS gear. The tides shift when you work together with a healer and communicate effectively. I'd wager that a 27/14 darkness sin is the best peeler in the game. You have many tools to keep your healer alive, but blowing them all means you limit your ability to pressure as well. Our pressure comes in part from some of those same tools. When you lack the burst potential (as we should since we chose to play a hybrid spec) you must rely on well timed stuns, snares, grips, etc in order to keep on your target/interrupt healing long enough to chip away at your enemy's health pool. As it stands this means you are an effective utility player. Not able to endure as long as a traditional tank, nor able to put out strong enough burst to score quick kills, but of great value when paired with an appropriate supporting healer and smart use of your abilities. In all my experience in MMOs I think the tor assassin is actually one of the best balanced classes when compared to the others in this game. The hybrid specs, while effective, definitely come with tradeoffs that you have to base your playstyle around. That's exactly how it should work. The best way I can articulate this is to say that switching from deception to 27/14 was a conscious choice on my part for two important reasons: I regularly PvP with a healer friend who gets heavily focusedI wanted to play a spec that gave me more opportunities to capitalize on enemy mistakes at the expense of much less damage While I won't say the proposed changes will destroy our class or anything as extreme as that, I will say that clearly this is an attempt to steer us toward our 31 pt talents. Personally, I'd rather they make the 31 pt talent more appealing if that's the desired goal, but I can understand how this might upset balance in the process. However, I will say that if these changes go live, there should really be some serious investigation into the darkness assassin's pvp tanking viability and the defense/shield/absorb rating effectiveness on the gear meant to support it. I suppose I should mention the obvious; that the big killer here for 27/14 is the lack of induction outside surging charge. Without the force efficiency granted by this your ability to pressure at all is hindered severely. After nerf goes live hybrid 27/11/3 will be better than 27/14/0 hybrid http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200rcRokrskrZhGb0zZc.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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