I think the point he may be trying to make is that many of the people at the top of the boards are there because they are not doing the objectives, which I would agree with. That's not to say that you can't top the charts by doing the objectives.

Just a question: Why would the "group" matter if skill is not involved? wouldn't "group" be a combo of the other 3? Aside from that I would put skill ahead of everything, and (imo) anyone who doesn't, doesn't have enough skill to see how big of a gap there is between you and non skilled players.

Here is my post explaining why CT is a DPS loss: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=331251&highlight=creeping+terror+buff This post doesn't review shock, but I do think the shock argument is one worth looking at (I just haven't done any math on it yet).

Thanks for this post, I honestly never even thought to look at shock (/bonks self on head), but thinking about it now, with its extreme force cost it is a good idea to look at :-) I'm going to have to do some math on this myself and review it.

For anyone who feels the need to take CT (which is very weak in PVE and a DPS loss if you aren't out of melee for more than 7 sec). Here is the build: http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/sith_inquisitor/assassin/#::e2fe6fe5fe3f10ef7def2ef16

here is your best damage output in a patchwork style fight: http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/sith_inquisitor/assassin/#::e2fe6f2e4fe3f10ef7e2f2ef16 Deathfield on CD Crushing Darkness on Raze proc. Keep discharge up shock ~every 20sec for Unearthed Knowledge assassinate sub 30% maul on duplicity proc. Thrash *force is very tight so make sure you aren't shocking more than you need to.

Ok, this is the most difficult of the variables, because it bring in quite a few points and counter points. Not only can Kinetic/Energy damage reduction increase and decrease, but independently Internal/elemental damage reductions can increase and decrease aswell. And, in PVP, each has counter measures. So, without getting into all of that, lets step back. Its not so much that an internal damage DOT doesn't have positive effects, but that Creeping Terror's Base damage is a bit low for a 31 point talent especially from a PVE standpoint. I believe that there is quite a bit of balancing left in this game, some would even say it is perpetual. And, in its current state Creeping Terror still leaves a bit to desire. It would be interesting to compare Creeping Terror To other similar DOTs in this game to see where it stands. I'll see if I can get some #'s from some equally geared 50s from other single point DOT abilities.

The only thing I would add to this, which had not been mentioned when your post was made, is that by placing a point in CT you are taking it away from filling out Duplicity or Electric Execution. From a pure damage standpoint (which in a raid that is what you are mostly there for) my Maul is a base damage increase of 833 over CT (using my average numbers for maul, 1736 non crit, and the same analysis as the original post). And, Electric Execution is in theory a damage gain of 978 over CTs 18 second duration. It is important to note that Electric Execution's direct contribution to this is only 24 damage and if CTs failures did not occur with the other mechanics in play this would not be an increase.

I'm going to address A few of the PVP additions with an over all statement. I am a BM on my sin and love PVP :-) However, there is a whole other side of this game. I have cleared 8/10 HM on my op, 9/10 HMs on my sin, and 10/10 HMs on my merc, so I also love PVE. As a PVE sin, and in comparison to the other classes that I have exp. with, CT is a bit of a disappointment as a 31 point talent. There are alot of strengths to sin, and out of the 3 classes, sin is by far my favorite (though Medicine op is pretty fun imo) :-). The PVP uses are well stated, and well received. I agree that in the situations where you would tactically use CT in PVP, it is a strong asset. If PVP were the only endgame content in this game then I would still be disappointed with CTs damage output, but its situational utility in PVP has merit as I my self have used it to root someone in fire through resolve and/or keep distance on a warrior to gain the health advantage, in addition to just keeping an extra person from going where they want to go. As with any tool, good players will find good ways to use them. This is why I said "may" want to steer clear of it, because if you don't find yourself utilizing it in these situations due to playstyle differences, then its use diminishes greatly and there are alternatives that could replace it. Still, from a PVE standpoint its value begins to break down, so I believe it does need a buff to make it no longer an overall loss.

In the original post there is a section on "Why Thrash vs Creeping Terror". There is very good reason to compare the two abilities, which I'm not going to go over again unless you demonstrate an understanding of why this is done. Aside from that, in a Boss encounter it is not often long enough that you are out of melee range that you could not just get creative and minimize damage downtime. And, even on the encounters that you are out of melee you have to compare the damage difference from taking this talent for a situation that you can normally find a workaround vs not taking other damage talents such as Duplicity. As Maul does not suffer the same problems that CT does (stealing Deathmark charges, stealing thrash damage, and reducing Raze procs since Maul does proc Raze) and it gains the 9% crit from Exploitive Strikes, Duplicity is the ideal candidate for for point shifting.

Ok, this is the easiest one to go over since it is delt with in the original post and a follow up post: As mentioned you want Crushing Darkness and Discharge consuming Deathmark charges (read the orginal post for more information on this) therefor CT also returns ZERO force. And, as for the healing, with a little math and logic I don't believe it is a worth while trade for what you lose from Thrash, Crushing Darkness, and Discharge. (I have posted the math and logic in a previous post if you would like to review it) Now, I'm gonna go have some coffee and I'll come back to talk about these other variables later lol :-)

And that is really the heart of the issue. Not so much that CT has no use at all, but that it has limited use in PVP (however valuable it may be) and is actually counter productive in PVE leaving you better off with 8/3/30. And as a 31point talent, is that really acceptable? is that really intended? And as far as raze goes, that is exactly why you need a good reason to stop thrashing, and CT simply doesn't offer that reason.

Now, in fairness the point was brought up that the extra DOT brings extra heals from Parasitism/Devour which is a valid proposal. But, lets look at that for a moment: As stated above in the orginal post, CT steals Deathmark charges from Crushing Darkness and Discharge. Also, using a GCD for CT is a damage loss from not thrashing. And, without looking at the usage of a GDC for CT and its affects on Crushing Darkness's uptime (which as it ticks per second and does damage instantly in theory it would be another noticeable damage loss), here are the numbers from damage loss vs health gain. If Deathmark charges are all consumed by Crushing Darkness and Discharge, then it is a theoretical gain of 1995 damage (6 ticks of CD with a 20% increase and 4 ticks of Discharge with a 20% increase). So, being 1 dot of 3 we will assume it uses 1/3 of the Deathmark charges for a damage loss of 542 (figured from the difference of the loss from CD/discharge and the 20% increase gained on the CT ticks). And, the average damage loss (as shown in the original post) from spending a GCD on CT instead of Thrash is 412. 542 + 412 = 954 (total average damage loss from using CT over an 18 second period). Now, as stated above, on average I am likely to see 2 out of 7 ticks crit which would equal 2% of my HP times 2. Or: 330 * 2 = 660 (total average health gain from CT tick crits over an 18 second period). So, I lose 954 Damage (or -954) and gain 660 (or +660) health over CT's 18 second duration for a result of -294. This is a mode of logic I like to use when weighing mitigation talents vs damage talents when spending "free" or "floating" talent points. And, since I am losing more Damage than I am gaining in health/mitigation I would not see this as an acceptable trade.

Just by reading the talent it is pretty clear that it roots, and I do believe that people understand that. People bring up electrocute because it is a 30m range and does a 4s stun, as opposed to a 30m 2 sec root. The trade out, in its use, is resolve for a longer duration stun. A similar scenario can be stated for Whirlwind. It is clear that these are different talents/abilities and therefor do different things, but they are not enough different to justify a 31 point talent that shouldn't even be spec'd into for 1/2 of the game (PVE). And, since I don't see a viable utility increase that would Benefit both PVP and PVE, it seems to me that it needs a damage increase or an added Benefit that works with other talents/abilities that are valuable to the spec for both PVE and PVP if a damage increase is off the table. (maybe a debuff on the target that increases crit chance or something to that effect) Fortunately, it also seems clear that everyone so far agrees that it does need a buff. BW I hope you're reading.

Far too situational to be a 31 point talent though. It does have some utility, but there are alot of things that you can do to limit its uses since there is so much overlap in its specific utility. I do agree that its root at 30m is a saving grace (with no resolve)... it's just not enough to make it really worth while. You should not be using it in PVE where you can have discharge rolling, and it has VERY few uses in PVP that can't be done with a different ability. As a 31 point talent you should want to have it, not just take it because you feel you have to or because you have 1 left over point so you guess you'll just stick it there. It really feels like they phoned it in on this talent.