Most of you just dont get it...

[Vegathegreat]

Wow, the OP and his mentality are just full of FAIL!

 

FPS and RTS are very successful pvp games, and it shows that gear progression is not needed to have people want to play your game. There is nothing that says MMOs ´have´ to have gear progression, not unless you can show us in the official mmo creators book where it says that is a law of mmos.

 

And i want pvp gear progression or lack there of to be like the other styled games mentioned, but i want it in my mmo play. I am clearly not the only one that wants this, and i think you are deluding yourself if you believe we are such a small voice.

 

Just speaking for this game,

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=259238

 

+ the many other large threads here that have been created about how players love the 10-49 bracket and want to roll alts to only play in it.

 

So it is pretty ignorant of you to ignore the obvious right in front of you.

 

Want to stop pve ers from rolling in unchecked, just stat cap them with a -10% regardless of thier gear. I say this because BW wanted to seperate those that spend time in pvp and pve (though i do not think it is necessary, just a straight stat cap would do). Then you will have all the leet pve ers getting face rolled because they suck at pvp and wont show up, or the players that like to enjoy both will then function just fine.

 

and while maybe what 50,000 people might post about how they dont want gear as a progrssion tool to pvp, there are 500,000 people playing right now, not writing in these forums, gearing the toons so they can impose their newly found str on the ones who dont have it yet.....do you understand this? those are the people who will keep the subs rolling in, not the angry 50k posting in the forums

[Nyjil]

You still dont get it, the MAJORITY of MMO players play the game to progress through gear and become stronger than other people playing the game, they do not want to play a game where everyone is footman #13 on the battlefield.....

 

They want their toon to be the HERO, the guy with 200 more str than the others, william wallace, achilles, "insert hero here".........everyone else playing is suppose to be random worthless enemy....and ever so often you run into "hector", "insert awesome geared enemy here"......

 

this is an MMO.....get over it

 

if i were trying to get a TROY achilles experience out of an MMO...i wouldnt play MMOs. The illusion is that we are the hero, but really we just some other dude ina sea of other dudes racing to get purple and orange items... pvp is about skill, awareness, timing and team work. gear has nothing to do with it. but thanks to WoW everyone thinks it does.

[Bhorzo]

Someone asked me in another thread... and I can't really say.

 

What's the most popular FPS game out there that does NOT have gear progression?

[DrekorSilverfang]

All MMOs have an interesting challenge to solve. Generally....

 

- For those that enjoy the PvP experience, MMOs want those customers to engage in enjoyable PvP, regardless of their incoming PvP skill

 

- If PvP system was entirely about skill, only highly skilled players would PvP, which would reduce the potential customer base. If an inexperienced tried PvP, they would get stomped, and there are two possible outcomes: (1) they quit because getting constantly stomped is not fun, (2) they endure the early humiliation until they get better.

 

Gearing is a good compromise to get new comers to try PvP and to learn their class and improve their skills before quitting out of frustration of getting constantly stomped. As a player progresses, their persistence is rewarded as much as their skill.

 

This is a good system to maximize participation in enjoyable PvP for as many people possible. The system always needs to be tweaked and adjusted, but I believe it to be a solid compromise.

 

This is where good match making and a ladder system do well. For example when I solo queue in ranked play in league of legends I start at 1200 rating which is where all the "average" players are. If I play well and my team wins I move up and up and up eventually I get higher to say 1500 and notice people are playing quite a bit better. Maybe I keep improving and get up to 1800 and now people I'm facing are much better than they were before. I never fight a 1200 person as long as I continue playing at an 1800+ level and a 1200 person never has to fight a 2400 pro.

 

If you have solid match making with a ladder system(which provides a source of visible "skill" progression) you can have gear not mean a damn thing and pvp will be enjoyable than in any sort of gear progression system. You might get people whine and complain that they always get noobs on their team and think they should be playing with pros but that's just because they've deluded themselves into thinking they don't suck.

 

Someone asked me in another thread... and I can't really say.

 

What's the most popular FPS game out there that does NOT have gear progression?

Counterstrike... it's got a lot of people playing it and is popular in the e-sports scene as well.

Edited February 1, 2012 by DrekorSilverfang

[Svelus]

I have yet to see any statistics that back up your claim.

 

I had a HUGE thread in the Beta PVP forums with a poll about how effective people wanted gear to be in PVP. It was overwhelmingly in favor of gear having as little impact on PVP as possible.

 

PVEers want gear progression.

 

Real PVPers don't need it, at least not to the level of gearflation stupidity that it gets taken in some games that think they are making good PVP.

 

agreed im an alright player and i can take down a decently geared bad player with no pvp and questing pve gear, i have gave up trying to gear i don't get bag drops and the pvp dailies are next to impossible to do with with the hour - tree i have.

[Scoobings]

DCUO is irrelevant because the artificial advantage that all of the douchebags flocked to were the macros for animation canceling and animation canceling itself.

 

That game is still plagued by exploits. Granted they aren't as bad as they were at release but the exploits were so bad it chased everyone away from that game's PvP.

 

DCUO had a lot of potential but the slimy Gollums that have to have some kind of artificial advantage abused the exploits so much that it literally killed that game. You can try to blame it on Sony getting hacked but anyone who played that game at release knows the truth.

 

Guess what also added to the death of that game? Everybody and their brothers all rolling villians on PvP servers made for one sided faction imbalances that ruined queue times until the only servers that had decent amounts of people were the PvE servers. Those servers were skewed too but in favor of heroes.

 

I haven't played much since the Megaserver merge but whatever.

 

It was better with mega-servers. I'm not claiming that legends killed DCUO, because you're right it didn't it was the exploiting.

 

I'm just saying that no one wants to play "Legends" they all wanted to play the normal war zones. Largely "legends" was looked at as a joke by the circles I ran in.

[alanisUDL]

Real PvPers want competition. They want winning to matter, not accumulating "medals" or whatever crap Rift or WAR or Warcraft gave out to people. They want their actions to matter and mean something.

 

Real PvPers want to win or lose and know that the result was based on what player or team played the best in that fight.

 

Real PvPers don't put up with carebear nonsense, and view these popular games as just placeholders until something better comes along. SWTOR is barely at placeholder level.

 

Real PvPers would never argue that someone needs to "grind and gear up" to be able to compete and beat someone. They would welcome the challenge, as it is good for the community and gives more people to battle against.

 

Gamers that want gear advantages in PvP do so at their own peril. It causes PvP populations to leave and go to other games. It causes people that grind out the top gear to get bored and leave for other games. It causes them to refrain from challenging themselves to become better players and not rely on out-gearing their opponents.

 

This game...this game is just barely at placeholder status, and that is merely because it is new. This game is going to get crushed, just like WAR and Rift, when another game comes along. It remains to be seen if the new post-WoW gamer will be able to grasp Guild Wars 2, but even if many of those gamers don't give it a try, it will still crush this game.

[Celebrus]

Someone asked me in another thread... and I can't really say.

 

What's the most popular FPS game out there that does NOT have gear progression?

 

 

CoD does not have gear progression. Gear Progression implies replacing one item with an item that is AN IMPROVED VERSION OF THE PREVIOUS, where in CoD, weapons are not "better" than the others. I will gun you down just as rapidly with a M4 as I will with an AK-47, whether I get access to one at a higher "level" does not imply that it is an improved version of the other, it's different, not improved.

 

CoD's gear "options" are not a progression system.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Celebrus

[Bhorzo]

CoD does not have gear progression. Gear Progression implies replacing one item with an item that is AN IMPROVED VERSION OF THE PREVIOUS, where in CoD, weapons are not "better" than the others. I will gun you down just as rapidly with a M4 as I will with an AK-47, whether I get access to one at a higher "level" does not imply that it is an improved version of the other, it's different, not improved.

 

CoD's gear "options" are not a progression system.

 

Well COD is pretty successful last time I check, no?

 

Wouldn't that imply that there IS a market for PVP games that aren't based on gear progression. I know some people would hit me for this... but then doesn't that mean COD is a skill-based PVP game?

 

(I dunno, I've never played COD.)

[Scoobings]

if i were trying to get a TROY achilles experience out of an MMO...i wouldnt play MMOs. The illusion is that we are the hero, but really we just some other dude ina sea of other dudes racing to get purple and orange items... pvp is about skill, awareness, timing and team work. gear has nothing to do with it. but thanks to WoW everyone thinks it does.

 

If you are bad at the game, you are still going to be rolled. Gear or not. Case in point, go dual 60% of the people who run in premades. Gear is an advantage but not a decisive one by any means. Especially since very rare are the games where it's a team of fresh 50s against a team of battlemasters.

 

In that perfect storm of a worst case scenario yeah gear will decide the match regardless of skill. But I feel like that probably doesn't ever happen unless premades are involved forcing it to happen.

[Hannah_banana]

Hey OP, I support you.

 

Honestly, I'm not a long-time PVPer, not "old school" never played most of the big PVP game-names that get tossed around the forums like credentials. But I personally don't give a crap if PVP gives me gear or not, because it's a blast.

 

What I DO care about, is having people to PVP with. The same people complaining about queue times want a rewardless PVP system? Thats... illogical. The gear-grubbing masses fill up our PVP queues. In an MMO designed primarily for PVE/RPers, it would be extremely difficult to get all those PVE-ers to come PVP with us without incentive because lets face it, they aren't very good. They get their faces smushed in the majority of the time. Gear keeps them coming back.

 

So, I'm all for leaving gear in as a reward. Regardless of all the crying, skill still outweighs gear. You can put a crappy player in BM gear, they're still going to faceroll their skills the same exact way and if YOU'RE good enough, they won't beat you.

 

My question is... for those that like PVPing so much, why do you even care if there is a gear reward or not? You're going to PVP anyway, so its not a grind to you. Gear is just a bonus...

[Skeptical]

It was better with mega-servers. I'm not claiming that legends killed DCUO, because you're right it didn't it was the exploiting.

 

I'm just saying that no one wants to play "Legends" they all wanted to play the normal war zones. Largely "legends" was looked at as a joke by the circles I ran in.

 

I just hate seeing the same mentalities ruin game after game. It gets tiresome quick and it's slowly making me dislike MMORPGs and to a lesser degree FPSs.

 

I wish you hadn't of said anything about DCUO because now I'm seeing some similarities.

 

I loved DCUO at release for like 5 days until everyone started exploiting and all rolling villains. Then it became a zerg fest by the villains at the entrance to every main hero precinct. Then to make matters worse the heroes started rerolling villains and then bam the servers were ghost towns and open world PvP was almost nonexistent.

 

Is it just me or is it kind of similar to the way this whole everyone roll Empire trend is turning out? My server got quiet fast and we had one of the longest queues at release.

[Scoobings]

agreed im an alright player and i can take down a decently geared bad player with no pvp and questing pve gear, i have gave up trying to gear i don't get bag drops and the pvp dailies are next to impossible to do with with the hour - tree i have.

 

I feel you there, however if you hold on to the quest you can achieve the daily over 2-3 days with about an hour of play time a day (depending on how lucky you are) Also the weekly is attainable too.

 

It will for sure take you longer (it took me a long time just to get to valor rank 38 ish or whatever I am) but it doesn't take very long to close the gap enough to make gear almost a nonfactor if you are playing your class well.

 

Also, buying crafted items to fill in for your missing PVP items is a good idea. I'm still using a master craft ear piece.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Scoobings

[Richard__Rahl]

You still dont get it, the MAJORITY of MMO players play the game to progress through gear and become stronger than other people playing the game, they do not want to play a game where everyone is footman #13 on the battlefield.....

 

They want their toon to be the HERO, the guy with 200 more str than the others, william wallace, achilles, "insert hero here".........everyone else playing is suppose to be random worthless enemy....and ever so often you run into "hector", "insert awesome geared enemy here"......

 

this is an MMO.....get over it

 

Achilles and William Wallace were hero's because they were more skilled than thier opponents not because Achilles Bracers were better than Footmans #13's or anything like that. People want to be a hero because of gear are sucky players...

 

Achilles would own Footman #13 naked every day every time...

[Vegathegreat]

Hey OP, I support you.

 

Honestly, I'm not a long-time PVPer, not "old school" never played most of the big PVP game-names that get tossed around the forums like credentials. But I personally don't give a crap if PVP gives me gear or not, because it's a blast.

 

What I DO care about, is having people to PVP with. The same people complaining about queue times want a rewardless PVP system? Thats... illogical. The gear-grubbing masses fill up our PVP queues. In an MMO designed primarily for PVE/RPers, it would be extremely difficult to get all those PVE-ers to come PVP with us without incentive because lets face it, they aren't very good. They get their faces smushed in the majority of the time. Gear keeps them coming back.

 

So, I'm all for leaving gear in as a reward. Regardless of all the crying, skill still outweighs gear. You can put a crappy player in BM gear, they're still going to faceroll their skills the same exact way and if YOU'RE good enough, they won't beat you.

 

My question is... for those that like PVPing so much, why do you even care if there is a gear reward or not? You're going to PVP anyway, so its not a grind to you. Gear is just a bonus...

 

This is exactly why i made this thread, to keep the bad players pvping you gotta throw the carrot on the stick.....if you dont then all you get is 40,000 competitive pvper's spread across hundreds of servers..... when you could have those people plus the 1 million subs from terrible gamers.........no company can go against these facts

[Skeptical]

Achilles and William Wallace were hero's because they were more skilled than thier opponents not because Achilles Bracers were better than Footmans #13's or anything like that. People want to be a hero because of gear are sucky players...

 

Achilles would own Footman #13 naked every day every time...

 

Nice.

 

Well said, sir.

[Shadow_Spec]

Roll Imperial or get rolled... I think this is what the game has become now.

[Vegathegreat]

Achilles and William Wallace were hero's because they were more skilled than thier opponents not because Achilles Bracers were better than Footmans #13's or anything like that. People want to be a hero because of gear are sucky players...

 

Achilles would own Footman #13 naked every day every time...

 

And the person who can really be achilles will be him anyways.........the gear allows the other 99% of the subs to think they are achilles........

[Treebyrn]

STILL DONT GET IT !!!

 

The MAJORITY of MMO players want to progress through gear to become stronger than the rest, they dont really care about equal competition, and the ones that do know it exists once you have all the gear..........

 

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW?

 

my statements do not represent my own views, they represent the views of the MAJORITY, the people playing right now instead of typing in this forum, the people who play allday, the people who will PAY the BILLS..... can you people stop being so thick headed

 

Find and post some solid concrete evidence to back up your claim and then i will say "I GET IT"... until then I will just think of it as Players players eating what ever is put before them because we currently do not have any other real choices other than the gear treadmill based pvp.

 

Really until a company puts forth the same time, money and effort as Blizz and Bio has we may never know if a non gear based pvp will succeed or not.

 

 

Not to mention that pretty much all the pvp problems we are seeing are because of the pvp gear grind and the gaps it creates.... people need the gear to compete so they will take any and all shortcuts they can to get it as fast as possible, Kill trade on Illum - check, higher pop farming lower pop - check, people not sticking around for losing WZ matches - check, people rolling on high pop side to gain advantage - check, people not willing to roll low pop side to help balance the pop - check.

 

The game could be so much more than what it is now if they would just remove the gear based incentives and made all the rewards more on the fun side (unique stuff that can only be gotten through pvp).

Edited February 1, 2012 by Treebyrn

[TheHexxus]

Well COD is pretty successful last time I check, no?

 

Wouldn't that imply that there IS a market for PVP games that aren't based on gear progression. I know some people would hit me for this... but then doesn't that mean COD is a skill-based PVP game?

 

(I dunno, I've never played COD.)

 

COD is very much a skill based game Hand-eye coordination is very much a skill. As is quick, on-the-go thinking.

 

The only non-skill part of PvP in most MMO's is the gear itself.

Edited February 1, 2012 by TheHexxus

[Scoobings]

I just hate seeing the same mentalities ruin game after game. It gets tiresome quick and it's slowly making me dislike MMORPGs and to a lesser degree FPSs.

 

I wish you hadn't of said anything about DCUO because now I'm seeing some similarities.

 

I loved DCUO at release for like 5 days until everyone started exploiting and all rolling villains. Then it became a zerg fest by the villains at the entrance to every main hero precinct. Then to make matters worse the heroes started rerolling villains and then bam the servers were ghost towns and open world PvP was almost nonexistent.

 

Is it just me or is it kind of similar to the way this whole everyone roll Empire trend is turning out? My server got quiet fast and we had one of the longest queues at release.

 

Same thing happened on my server. Eventually the villains started rolling heroes though just to trololol the heroes who rerolled.

 

Here's the problem with segregating your community into servers that don't share ques:

 

Eventually because the sample pool is so small, one side will start to win more, and out number the other. It hasn't happened on my server yet but I gather it is happening on some.

 

It happened on my DCUO server, it happened on my Vanilla WoW server before X server queues and I imagine it's only a matter of time until it begins to happen here.

 

The good news is supposedly BW is prepared for that to happen and has the back-end all sorted out for cross server ques.

[Celebrus]

Well COD is pretty successful last time I check, no?

 

Wouldn't that imply that there IS a market for PVP games that aren't based on gear progression. I know some people would hit me for this... but then doesn't that mean COD is a skill-based PVP game?

 

(I dunno, I've never played COD.)

 

Yes, it does mean there is a market for it. No, it does not mean it is a skill based game. It's a twitch shooter, your ability to draw with a sharpy a dot on your screen and then quick scope does not mean you are good.

 

Whats the most popular game that does have gear progression? Would it be WoW? One of the highest selling games of all time? Could that possibly indicate that there is also a market for games that DO have gear progression? Ding ding ding. I think there is.

 

The fact of the matter is this: they have chosen to provide gear progression in PvP, the system is in place, it's not going anywhere. If you don't like it, then while that is perfectly acceptable, chances are good that it's not going to change and that you are never going to like it, i would move on.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Celebrus

[Hannah_banana]

Achilles would own Footman #13 naked every day every time...

 

Especially when played by Brad Pitt....yum!

[alanisUDL]

Find and post some solid concrete evidence to back up your claim and then i will say "I GET IT"... until then I will just think of it as Players players eating what ever is put before them because we currently do not have any other real choices other than the gear treadmill based pvp.

 

Really until a company puts forth the same time, money and effort as Blizz and Bio has we may never know if a non gear based pvp will succeed or not.

 

GW2 is going to @#$!#$!@ crush this game.

[Callo]

I have yet to see any statistics that back up your claim.

 

I had a HUGE thread in the Beta PVP forums with a poll about how effective people wanted gear to be in PVP. It was overwhelmingly in favor of gear having as little impact on PVP as possible.

 

PVEers want gear progression.

 

Real PVPers don't need it, at least not to the level of gearflation stupidity that it gets taken in some games that think they are making good PVP.

 

This is true. Completely agree.

I would love to not have any gear BS. I was skeptical about GW2 until I started reading their site. If you take gear out of the equation it becomes skill based PvP. Who is truly the better PvPer or who gets luckier with crits in an even match. Yes, killing other players is satisfying, but it's even more satisfying when you know it's a legit kill and not because your gear was better. I'd much rather have a close fight than to thoroughly demolish another player because of my gear. If I thoroughly demolish someone and there is no gear difference, it is extremely satisfying and a dance on their corpse will probably ensue.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Callo