What does the 1-49 bracket teach us about PVP gear?

[NotSevv]

as simple as it gets, pvp is like any fight/war/etc the better your gear/weapons/etc the better your chances. Also getting pvp gear is a grind so yeah.

[Aowar]

If the new employee is more skilled at the job than the 20year vet, then why should the vet get the money? Just because he's been there longer?

 

 

So you would throw away the 20 year vets experience and loyalty in favor of some new guy with no track record? All based on fairness? I wonder what world you live in, it clearly isn't a realistic one.

[goxwerd]

alts in the 10-49 bracket is fun mainly because gear doesn't matter as much. You can still feel some affect from stuff you have on, bought, found. But it doesn't feel OP it feels about right.

 

I wish ToR was more like that. I dont want to abolish gear progression i just wish we didn't have such insane stat inflation and gear basically being more important than spec/playstyle/skill.

 

Right now gear trumps all i would like to have gear matter just not as much as it currently does.

[Bregah]

Having gear matter in pvp is honestly the dumbest thing about MMO pvp.

 

 

Just echoing this.

 

I put up with it in WoW because it was the only real MMO PvP on a grand scale, and it was a bad band-aid fix to PvE gear pwning people.

 

But at least in WoW you can get crafted starter stuff (and properly plan your gear gains out without RNG bag duplicate randomess crap).

 

Other MMOs should be coming up with a new and better way to do this, not copy a bad band-aid fix. Make NO gear matter (yes, make that PvE raid gear not matter) and have it come down to skill and teamwork. OMG, what? Skill and teamwork being the only determining factor in team-based PvP? Can't happen, can it?

[Torleen]

So you would throw away the 20 year vets experience and loyalty in favor of some new guy with no track record? All based on fairness? I wonder what world you live in, it clearly isn't a realistic one.

 

I am going to put this in bold, as you continually ignore this point that causes your argument to fall on it's face. ANY "20 year veteran" in PVP who gets crushed by a rookie with "no track record" is not a skilled PVPer, and needed his gear crutch to win. In which case, ceasing to be someone who deserves any recognition. Any 20 year veteran of PVP SHOULD of developed strategies and reflexes that cause them to have an advantage over any rookie.

[beyondkilling]

Nope. I don't want gear to matter.

 

Player vs Player.

 

Not gear vs. gear.

 

Come on, if you are a PVPer you don't need the crutch. Don't hide behind your gear.

 

plz just go play halo that's the most balanced game in the world so go do that k? but that gets boring after a few months and you will be begging to Come grind some pvp gear don't be lazy and make time it does not mean no life no job i have a 2 jobs go to school and still have time to play had 4 glads in wow and i am going to get the best gear here too.

 

P.S. if any1 says anything bad about wow that means you sucked at it

[Torleen]

alts in the 10-49 bracket is fun mainly because gear doesn't matter as much. You can still feel some affect from stuff you have on, bought, found. But it doesn't feel OP it feels about right.

 

I wish ToR was more like that. I dont want to abolish gear progression i just wish we didn't have such insane stat inflation and gear basically being more important than spec/playstyle/skill.

 

Right now gear trumps all i would like to have gear matter just not as much as it currently does.

 

This, is the essence of what this thread is about.

[Dannicus]

I can play that game also.

 

You suggest that a new employee should be given the same 100k salary for showing up to work as the 20 year vet who has vastly more experience. In your world this is fair.

 

No, you've missed the point entirely. Just as a player would earn prestige, bragging rights, and more skill with time invested, an employee earns more money, job security, and valued experience with more time worked. The problem is with Expertise and not with PvP gear itself. It's more like the vet having all the newest furniture, computers, software, whatever to do his job while the new employee is sitting at a Pentium II on a wooden box and forced to write reports using Notepad and level of experience isn't being considered, just time with the company.

[Torleen]

plz just go play halo that's the most balanced game in the world so go do that k? but that gets boring after a few months and you will be begging to Come grind some pvp gear don't be lazy and make time it does not mean no life no job i have a 2 jobs go to school and still have time to play had 4 glads in wow and i am going to get the best gear here too.

 

P.S. if any1 says anything bad about wow that means you sucked at it

 

Again, players that need to grind to PVP are "too lazy" to practice and improve their skill.

 

P.S. all you had to do to be "good" at WoW was grind arena. News flash. Being good at "grinding" does not make you a PVPer. That is an attribute of PVEers.

[Trews]

So you would throw away the 20 year vets experience and loyalty in favor of some new guy with no track record? All based on fairness? I wonder what world you live in, it clearly isn't a realistic one.

 

If the new guy does the job better than the 20 year vet, i take the new guy. What part of this is un-realistic to you?

 

In a PVP environment, who would you want on your team? The better player? Or the player who's been there the longest?

[Keninblack]

P.S. if any1 says anything bad about wow that means you sucked at it

 

And you're on this game and not WoW because....?

[Noctournys]

Fact:

 

MMOs that had PvP that tried to survive without the carrot are all universal failures.

 

Reality:

 

If you dont provide a reason to play (character advancement) people wont play.

 

That simple.

 

Adapt or quit PvPing.

 

There aren't enough people who will "just PvP to PvP" to support a game. They dont exist.

[Glaucs]

The "Work ethic" of PVP response is a canned one I have heard many times before.

 

They try to tell you that if you were not lazy, then you would just go grind.

 

This is how they delude themselves into thinking they are "good at" something just because the numbers say they are.

 

Back when I first started PVPing in SWG, a game where everyone could buy the PVP gear because it was all crafted, you had a different and MUCH more exciting grind.

 

It was called dueling. A lot. Get together with friends and "spar". Exchange strategies, builds, and pointers. Practice your timing.

 

Gear was a factor, but it became part of the perfecting of one's play style. Not an "I win" button. Did I gear for this statistic or that statistic? Which one better compliments my strategy?

 

Rather then a flat "I WIN!" button that for some reason people who have deluded themselves into believing they are PVPers seem to feel is critical.

 

You have been duped if you believe that you have done anything worth bragging about if your gear stat is critical to your ability to win.

 

All the flaming aside you seem to be suggesting here two possibilities for PvP: 1) Remove PvP gear/stat or 2) Make PvP gear relatively easy for everyone to get through crafting. There are problems with both options unfortunately.

 

With option 1 you get the problem of Vanilla WoW Naxx raiders where people doing raids are getting the best gear and then you still have the problem of skill vs skill pvp being non-existent; however its because people farm Ops instead of Warzones. I don't see how this would fix the problem you describe; it would simply make the problem different and if you think that people would not farm the pve gear to pvp I think that is a naive assumption.

 

With option 2 you get the problem of gear being given out for relatively no effort at all. There are serious issues with the crafting system in this game and that is a whole separate issue which, tbh, having crafted pvp gear that was useful might help to solve but I digress. In essence with crafted gear that is easily gotten not only are people going to be able to get the gear without doing pvp but it makes pvp into a sideshow something like the space missions are atm; they are sorta fun but you can get all the stuff you need to do them from other sources and they get pretty repetitive after a while so the people who are into them stay interested but most other people don't really stay interested. Granted this is not the best example because the space missions are pretty much the exact same every time while pvp would be changing through fighting different teams/classes but ultimately it would have the same result of getting stale for everyone but the most hardcore especially when you consider the faction and class imbalance currently in the game. This option certainly has more merit than the first as it could be rounded out to be pvp oriented by doing something like getting pvp crafting mats from victory in some form of pvp (Wz, OWPvP, duels, etc).

 

As a final side note I think its funny how you trot out SWG as being this great pvp game where you can pvp relatively easy, its fun and its mostly skill base and "not a gear grind." I will admit pvp was fun but I don't know when you played SWG. When I played it at release and after the first xpac is was a HUGE grind fest which nearly rivaled Linage 2 for the boring and endless nature of the grinds. The difference was that you had to do huge grinds to get your skills rather than your gear so you should not really tote that game out as some great non-grinding pvp game when, in my experience, it took huge grinds to be competitive and have the best skills. Teras Kasi grind was epic boring.

 

tl;dr 1)Getting rid of pvp gear/stat causes PVE gear to be king in pvp. 2) Easily crafted gear makes pvp a sideshow (which it is, arguably, already) although it could help make crafting useful for something. 3) SWG is not a good example of non-grind pvp. The whole game was one big grind for skills so it may have been easy to get the items but it was mindless and time consuming to get the best skills.

[Trews]

Fact:

 

MMOs that had PvP that tried to survive without the carrot are all universal failures.

 

Reality:

 

If you dont provide a reason to play (character advancement) people wont play.

 

That simple.

 

Adapt or quit PvPing.

 

There aren't enough people who will "just PvP to PvP" to support a game. They dont exist.

 

Don't speak for me bro. I don't need a "carrot" to enjoy pvp.

[Torleen]

Fact:

 

MMOs that had PvP that tried to survive without the carrot are all universal failures.

 

Reality:

 

If you dont provide a reason to play (character advancement) people wont play.

 

That simple.

 

Adapt or quit PvPing.

 

There aren't enough people who will "just PvP to PvP" to support a game. They dont exist.

 

We have already suggested many alternatives.

 

I remember you don't like Modern Warfare, because you are not very good at it, and it annoys you that people who win it have better access to gear that conflates the learning curve problem even more.

 

This is the same thing.

 

PVP ratings, winning at rated games are all incentives that will encourage better PVP.

[jgmcdee]

The problem is that rewarding time spent with additional gear means that a player who PvPs a lot obtains two separate increases in their ability to fight against new PvP players.

 

First, they learn how to PvP with their avatar, the maps, how to play in a team, and how and when to fight.

 

Second, they get gear which makes them significantly stronger.

 

As far as I'm concerned the list of items in the first category are a good combination of skill-based and time-based (aka grinding) advantages. The second are purely a benefit of time-based and nothing to do with skill-based.

 

So I guess the question for those defending PvP gear is "why do you believe that the items in the first category are not enough?"

[ImURmaster]

I'm currently zerging in Illum and grinding WZ with almost intent of trying to actually find a fight where individual skill matters. Why? I quickly learned that gear progression makes (especially expertise) enough difference that you will mostly lose to a player that is geared better yet is less skilled.

 

Once I can level the playing field in terms of gear, then Ill look for "good" PvP. Make no mistake, the winner in a huge portion of the fights in this game at lv50 was determined before either combatants started the fight. Sad but true.

Edited February 1, 2012 by ImURmaster

[GrinNfool]

I don't need a carot to play PVP. I love PVP. I just despise development studios making me run on a hamster wheel chasing gear. That's not what PVP is.

 

If you need a carrot on a stick to get you to play a video game, you need to go see a doctor.

 

Ok, I suppose you aren't intentionally being a troll after reading your posts and believe honestly what you are saying. So here is the problem with you suggestion, how to counter it I haven't the foggiest, but I doubt it can be fixed.

 

1) This is an MMO gear progression and growing your character is what people want to do, its why you will see FF players in the older FF games spend hours over leveling and getting stronger, even though they could have beat it ages ago. Its why games like disgaea are popular. People WANT to see their character grow.

 

2)If you take away the expertise PvP gear, people in raid gear will run rampant obliterating the pvpers because their gear has more stats. At that point your next complaint would be well get rid of raiding gear, and you just can't do that. Converseley you can't get rid of the expertise gear and give it the same stats as raiding gear, or your hard core PvE guilds will go nuts saying its an easier way to gear out than raids. (WoW ran into this)

 

TL;DR MMOs are grounded in character progression, its what attracts most people to them, if you deny one avenue of advancement they will seek another. Gear will not go away in MMOs as thats how one grows their character. If you removed the PvP gear then people in raid gear would absolutely obliterate you, and you cannot remove raid gear as its a staple of PvE. The only way to make PvPrs competetive with raiders and still allow for people to grow their characters is PvP gear.

[Noctournys]

Don't speak for me bro. I don't need a "carrot" to enjoy pvp.

 

Im not, im telling you that you are part of a bitter, tiny minority that could never support a single game even if every single one of you went there to play.

[Modecrypt]

Hopefully, Guild Wars 2 turns out well and none of this will matter.

[Aryzyra]

Would be interesting to see if the basic premise of this thread is correct to a large extent. BW probably won't ever tell us if a lot of people are actually dropping their 50s and only pvping on the sub-50s of an account, but it would be interesting to know.

[ImURmaster]

TL;DR MMOs are grounded in character progression, its what attracts most people to them, if you deny one avenue of advancement they will seek another. Gear will not go away in MMOs as thats how one grows their character. If you removed the PvP gear then people in raid gear would absolutely obliterate you, and you cannot remove raid gear as its a staple of PvE. The only way to make PvPrs competetive with raiders and still allow for people to grow their characters is PvP gear.

 

In my experience the vast majority of "PvPers" are also raiders. Just saying. I have yet to meet a "PvPer" who didn't raid. I have met plenty of PvE players that didn't PvP though'

 

TL;DR: You case falls apart went you look at PvPers in general because they are also raiders.

[Noctournys]

Would be interesting to see if the basic premise of this thread is correct to a large extent. BW probably won't ever tell us if a lot of people are actually dropping their 50s and only pvping on the sub-50s of an account, but it would be interesting to know.

 

My queue times get shorter and shorter every day, so from observable data..

 

not at all.

 

Though, if they ever put in a "stop exp" option.. ill be making a fully purped 49 twink for sure.

[Ravenolf]

Having gear matter in pvp is honestly the dumbest thing about MMO pvp.

 

When you can win a fight before a shot is launched just because you outgear somone does not make a good game.

 

The problem is, how do you get people to pvp if gear doesn't matter and they don't have that carrot on a stick?

 

Why do people go out and do a pick up game of soccer or football? They enjoy the game and competition.

 

But comparing people that sit at their desk playing video games for many hours to athletes is probably not the best comparison. Good Sportsmanship behavior is /spit upon in most mmo pvp games.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Ravenolf

[Trews]

Im not, im telling you that you are part of a bitter, tiny minority that could never support a single game even if every single one of you went there to play.

 

With that comment coming from part of a bloated, self entitled majority, that elects to continually reward mediocrity....i'll take that as a compliment.