What does the 1-49 bracket teach us about PVP gear?

[_Marou_]

Absolutely not. The bolster system proves that if they wanted to, they could make gear irrelevant. The bolster system could simply override everyone's stats and give them equal numbers across the board, thereby making pvp a game of skill vs a game of gearing. In fact, this is the road I hope BW goes down one day. It would make rated WZ's much more interesting and challenging knowing that every opponent you went up against was equal to you in numbers, thereby allowing skill to truly take its place in pvp where it belongs, on top.

 

Exactly. Bioware obviously cares enough about PvP to have a PvP team, forums, and server rulesets. Huge power disparities based on grinding time in scenario based PvP are no fun *FOR MOST PEOPLE*. Whether they are on the dying in 2 seconds end of it, or the killing in 2 seconds end of it.

 

Gear power disparities in scenario/team based PvP:

 

1) Frustrate and drive away Bioware's casual bread and butter.

2) Drastically reduce the number of competitive matches, making it boring for people who PvP for the fun of PvP, instead of for gear.

3) Make a huge percentage of games foregone conclusions before the wait timer ends. (eg. 6/10 of our team have 12k hp, we lose).

[L-RANDLE]

Just different types of players. One wants to compete in grinding. The other wants to compete strategically and with reflexes/reaction time. I don't think Bioware has to give up either type.

 

Alot of us have been around the block MMO wise. I had my full set of arena gear in WoW and facerolled everyone in BG/WZ's. The disparity here is (as bad) or worse than WoW at level cap. I don't have the energy or inclination to "do my time" getting facerolled so I can faceroll everyone else while they "do their time". This isn't a prison, it's supposed to be entertainment.

 

 

No this is not a prison, you always have the option to reroll or quit. If you have been around said block, you would know that PvP in RPG's blow, so why buy it?

 

 

You also want to marginalize other players efforts to appease yourself. You want to be "Plug and Play, MMORPG" when the primary function of an RPG is progression.

 

No..... I don't want to compete in grinding. I want to see if I can compete with other players with my 50 toon, and all of my abilities available. I want to faceroll (which you guys fully admit is possible with same geared players) and win as much as possible in PvP (that's my fun). I can't do that very well with the given rules BW has set up, so I grind (also how exactly do you compete for something that is infinite and available to everyone? Is there really competition to that? YEAH BABY!!! I OUT GRINDED UR AZZ.... I GOT MY STUFF BEFORE YOU.... I'M SO LEET..... YEAH......).

[Anatlos]

I think the 1-49 PvP bracket teaches us that people need to start saving up their commendations so that if they're actually serious about PvPing, they an start off buying 6 bags, getting 90 centurion commendations, 42 champion commendations, and at least 3 pieces of gear from that right off from the start.

 

Then, they should do their weeklies and get another 8 bags, 120 centurion commendations, and 56 more champion commendations, a few more pieces of gear, have about 400 expertise, and stop crying about how squishy they are in PvP because guess what? They won't be.

 

We worked for our gear, so should they.

[_Marou_]

I think the 1-49 PvP bracket teaches us that people need to start saving up their commendations so that if they're actually serious about PvPing, they an start off buying 6 bags, getting 90 centurion commendations, 42 champion commendations, and at least 3 pieces of gear from that right off from the start.

 

Then, they should do their weeklies and get another 8 bags, 120 centurion commendations, and 56 more champion commendations, a few more pieces of gear, have about 400 expertise, and stop crying about how squishy they are in PvP because guess what? They won't be.

 

We worked for our gear, so should they.

 

I'm fine with that. Have the "normal" bracket as is, and the *don't care about rewards * "practice mode" if you want to. Let me opt into the one that doesn't receive rewards and just gets to play the game. You can faceroll me every once in awhile when I get a hair up my butt and feel like seeing how the normal bracket is looking, and in the interim the outcome of every game I play is unknown until the match actually ends.

 

For the record I did save up 1000/1000 comms and hit 50 at valor level 44 with all level 49-50 sockets/gear. It's still no good, and is vastly less fun than hitting the 10-49 brackets with a level 10 character in greens.

Edited February 16, 2012 by _Marou_

[L-RANDLE]

I'm fine with that. Have the "normal" bracket as is, and the *don't care about rewards * "practice mode" if you want to. Let me opt into the one that doesn't receive rewards and just gets to play the game. You can faceroll me every once in awhile when I get a hair up my butt and feel like seeing how the normal bracket is looking, and in the interim the outcome of every game I play is unknown until the match actually ends.

 

For the record I did save up 1000/1000 comms and hit 50 at valor level 44 with all level 49-50 sockets/gear. It's still no good, and is vastly less fun than hitting the 10-49 brackets with a level 10 character in greens.

 

So why not reroll or do you want to keep your high level abilities?

[MPagano]

You can think level 10 in greens is way better than lvl 50 in purples, but what's the difference? You're still going to get rolled. If you beat a level 30 or 40 as level 10, they're just terrible. You could similarly beat a BM player who is terrible.

 

There's no difference. People who hate the lvl 50 bracket just don't like that it's a gear grind, and pugging it means taking a lot of dumb losses. You don't have to face that fact in the 10-49 bracket. If you get beaten at level 10 you can just chalk it up to having less abilities. The fact is, you just don't like the end game grind for gear. It's fine, it's not for everyone. Just don't fool yourself into thinking there's something objectively different.

[_Marou_]

So why not reroll or do you want to keep your high level abilities?

 

I rolled an alt, ironically most of the good pvpers on my server are just capping a bunch of toons so the 10-49 bracket is full of familiar legacy names and highly competitive matches. However, stat balanced pvp with everyone having all abilities/talents (level 50) would be the best of both worlds; and would be by far the best PvP experience SWTOR could offer me.

 

There is a power gap in 10-49 based on # talent points spent and gear level/current player level, but it's inconsequential compared to the level 50 raid/BM gear vs level 50 scrub geared.

 

I'm not here to say they need to throw out the baby with the bathwater in as much as I feel like the 50 PvP has failed me, and want to see something more entertaining to *ME* in it's place. I know alot of people like the progression based PvP WoW introduced, but that was something that drove me away from WoW (get all gear=easy wins=bored), and will just end up boring the crap out of me here. I'm not alone in my dislike for this PvP model.

Edited February 16, 2012 by _Marou_

[Woocam]

People are leaving the 50's bracket and re-rolling characters so that they can continue to PVP in the 1-49 Brackets.

 

Lets really think about what that means.

 

It means that people would rather do the PVE grind AGAIN...

 

Stop right there....PvE is a grind? This game was sooooo easy to level in. There were many times when I had to train for 2-3 levels of abilities because I would level so fast before I went back to trainers. I'm talking about 20-40 leveling and not the the 1-20.

[Woocam]

If we are going to have brackets, I think we should have a bracket where Expertise is shut off. ESPECIALLY if you are thinking E-sport. And ESPECIALLY if you are going to have a PVP rating system.

 

I have a feeling that bracket would be far more populated.

 

 

I do agree with having a expertise shut off bracket. That would be great.

[L-RANDLE]

You can think level 10 in greens is way better than lvl 50 in purples, but what's the difference? You're still going to get rolled. If you beat a level 30 or 40 as level 10, they're just terrible. You could similarly beat a BM player who is terrible.

 

There's no difference. People who hate the lvl 50 bracket just don't like that it's a gear grind, and pugging it means taking a lot of dumb losses. You don't have to face that fact in the 10-49 bracket. If you get beaten at level 10 you can just chalk it up to having less abilities. The fact is, you just don't like the end game grind for gear. It's fine, it's not for everyone. Just don't fool yourself into thinking there's something objectively different.

 

Also add, don't scream "nerf PvP BM gear" and that gear is a "crutch" for bad players, when the same gear is also your crutch because you have it.

[_Marou_]

I do agree with having a expertise shut off bracket. That would be great.

 

Why stop at expertise? Just have the /gear is irrelevent/ bracket and the /standard/ bracket. Then PvP queues pop quick cause anyone can compete in them. Progression players can farm the standard bracket, people like me who just game for fun can play in the /irrelevent/ bracket. Everyone is happy.

[Noctournys]

Why stop at expertise? Just have the /gear is irrelevent/ bracket and the /standard/ bracket. Then PvP queues pop quick cause anyone can compete in them. Progression players can farm the standard bracket, people like me who just game for fun can play in the /irrelevent/ bracket. Everyone is happy.

 

If you want a game where progression doesn't matter, quit playing RPGs.

 

Shooters are what you're looking for, if you can find one without progression nowadays.

 

Good luck with that, btw.

 

This is a progression based game. Asking them to suddenly make it not a progression based game to suit a tiny minority is absurd.

 

You knew what you were getting into ahead of time unless you deliberately didnt do any research on the game at all.

[L-RANDLE]

I rolled an alt, ironically most of the good pvpers on my server are just capping a bunch of toons so the 10-49 bracket is full of familiar legacy names and highly competitive matches. However, stat balanced pvp with everyone having all abilities/talents (level 50) would be the best of both worlds; and would be by far the best PvP experience SWTOR could offer me.

 

There is a power gap in 10-49 based on # talent points spent and gear level/current player level, but it's inconsequential compared to the level 50 raid/BM gear vs level 50 scrub geared.

 

I'm not here to say they need to throw out the baby with the bathwater in as much as I feel like the 50 PvP has failed me, and want to see something more entertaining to *ME* in it's place. I know alot of people like the progression based PvP WoW introduced, but that was something that drove me away from WoW (get all gear=easy wins=bored), and will just end up boring the crap out of me here. I'm not alone in my dislike for this PvP model.

 

Ok, at least you admit, that it is not about facerolling. You are the only one to admit that lvl 49 should and do have advantages over a lvl10 in the "balanced" bracket. I would debate your statement of inconsequntial, but it's a start....

Edited February 16, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[_Marou_]

If you want a game where progression doesn't matter, quit playing RPGs.

 

Shooters are what you're looking for, if you can find one without progression nowadays.

 

Good luck with that, btw.

 

This is a progression based game. Asking them to suddenly make it not a progression based game to suit a tiny minority is absurd.

 

You knew what you were getting into ahead of time unless you deliberately didnt do any research on the game at all.

 

You mean asking them to suddenly add an *OPTION* that gives *ZERO REWARDS* and costs them little to implement but could save *THOUSANDS OF SUBS* is absurd. You didn't go to business school, huh?

 

Also, going from 49-50 is regression. Because you are going from hitting other level 49 players for alot of damage to hitting other level 50 players for very little damage. I had 1000/1000 comms from level 25 up. If I could have hoarded my entire stash full of champion bags I probably wouldn't have any complaints because Bioware would have given me an option to do what I like (PvP) and have have some semblance of balance throughout the entire experience (10-50). Instead you hit 50 and even if you saved up, your character is complete crap compared to the people who have been that level for awhile. So, drag your team down for weeks until you gear up? Have who wins be decided by whose team is the most weighted down with good gear? Stupid design for PvP.

Edited February 16, 2012 by _Marou_

[ZNICK]

The grind olympics? Is that something you want to be remembered for? You were better at wasting more time in your life then someone else so you "win"?

 

It's called PRACTICE... and is the basis for almost anyone successful in most any of life's endeavors.

 

You put in more time, you get better skilled and get better stuff. That's life, deal with it.

 

Z

[_Marou_]

Ok, at least you admit, that it is not about facerolling. You are the only one to admit that lvl 49 should and do have advantages over a lvl10 in the "balanced" bracket. I would debate your statement of inconsequntial, but it's a start....

 

 

Allow me to elaborate. Which is easy because I just re-entered the 10-49 bracket on my alt last night.

 

If I'm level 15, and I'm fighting a *bad* well geared 40+, I will win; if barely.

If I'm fighting a decent well geared 40+, I will do significant damage and probably die.

If I'm fighting a player as good or better than I am and well geared 40+, I will do some damage and surely die.

 

In the 50 bracket.

 

If I'm fighting a *bad* geared up player that only uses 1 button, I will surely lose; if barely.

If I'm fighting a decent geared up player, I will do a little damage and surely die.

If I'm fighting a player as good or better than I am, I will do completely inconsequential damage and die in seconds.

 

-----------------------------------

 

So, when I say the gap is inconsequential in the lower BG's, that's the elaboration I meant. I can still have plenty of fun in the 10-49 with gaps, not so much in the 50 bracket. You'd expect this type of inaccessibility in a game with like 27 tiers of crap, such as WoW. You don't expect it in a brand new game like SWTOR.

Edited February 16, 2012 by _Marou_

[Noctournys]

You mean asking them to suddenly add an *OPTION* that gives *ZERO REWARDS* and costs them little to implement but could save *THOUSANDS OF SUBS* is absurd. You didn't go to business school, huh?

 

Actually, yeah. I've taken business classes. Any supposed benefit from saving a tiny number of subs is offset (and moreso) by the further fracturing of the pool of players.

 

 

Also, going from 49-50 is regression. Because you are going from hitting other level 49 players for alot of damage to hitting other level 50 players for very little damage. I had 1000/1000 comms from level 25 up. If I could have hoarded my entire stash full of champion bags I probably wouldn't have any complaints because Bioware would have given me an option to do what I like (PvP) and have have some semblance of balance throughout the entire experience (10-50). Instead you hit 50 and even if you saved up, your character is complete crap compared to the people who have been that level for awhile. So, drag your team down for weeks until you gear up? Have who wins be decided by whose team is the most weighted down with good gear? Stupid design for PvP.

 

The gear gap simply isnt that big. Stop PvPing in level 40 questing greens - there is simply no excuse, of any kind, not to be in rating 124 purple in every single slot the same day you hit level 50.

[Wyrdstar]

Actually, yeah. I've taken business classes. Any supposed benefit from saving a tiny number of subs is offset (and moreso) by the further fracturing of the pool of players.

 

 

 

The gear gap simply isnt that big. Stop PvPing in level 40 questing greens - there is simply no excuse, of any kind, not to be in rating 124 purple in every single slot the same day you hit level 50.

 

"Tiny'?

 

Where do you get the term tiny from? Is there some kind of statistical break down from a credible source floating around somewhere? Curious...

[bejay]

I hit 50 yesterday on my trooper and the whole time i was lvling the pvp was mad fun because you do damage when you hit som1 and i could hold off 3-4 ppl before dieing until back up arrived but now in the 50 bracket and im doing very little damage while my health is going down faster then i can get all my attacks off,it is seriosly frustrating and yes i saved for my 5 bags plus the 1 i already had and my gear is ok for a fresh 50.

ill stick it out for a few days until i cant stand the frustration anymore then ill reroll and have some fun because thats why we play games not to be farmed by geared players.

All we need is some way to ease the gear gap a little maybe craftable pvp gear kinda like the blues you can make in wow or even have 2 lvl 50 brackets, have 1 with an expertise cap of say 200ish(so the PVE`ers dont own every1) and the second 200+ expertise.

Anyways im off to get my a*s handed to me for awhile lol.

Edited February 18, 2012 by bejay

[Tyranoc]

I hit 50 yesterday on my trooper and the whole time i was lvling the pvp was mad fun because you do damage when you hit som1 and i could hold off 3-4 ppl before dieing until back up arrived but now in the 50 bracket and im doing very little damage while my health is going down faster then i can get all my attacks off,it is seriosly frustrating and yes i saved for my 5 bags plus the 1 i already had and my gear is ok for a fresh 50.

ill stick it out for a few days until i cant stand the frustration anymore then ill reroll and have some fun because thats why we play games not to be farmed by geared players.

All we need is some way to ease the gear gap a little maybe craftable pvp gear kinda like the blues you can make in wow or even have 2 lvl 50 brackets, have 1 with an expertise cap of say 200ish(so the PVE`ers dont own every1) and the second 200+ expertise.

Anyways im off to get my a*s handed to me for awhile lol.

 

Everyone goes through that when they hit 50. Simply giving up is weak.

When you progress from primary school to middle school you once again become bottom of the food chain. From middle school to high school you are once again bottom of the food chain. First year college/university... Once again bottom of the food chain.

 

You are the fresh meat. Earn your place rather than just expecting to be the CEO of the company as soon as you walk in.

 

Behaviour like this differentiates the adults from the children.

 

If you give up this easy in a game I'd hate to see how patheticly weak your life is. Its called willpower and a spine. Try and find some.

 

People on this thread are such cry babies because they were the bi bad schoolyard bullies in 10-49... Now they are in the big bad wolrd and realising they werent so crash hot after all.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Tyranoc

[Rchik]

People in this topic are divided on two parts - those who are able and ready to invest their time in the game to gain some advantage over the others and those who are not. First ones play 1-2 hours a day and want to have fun, others play 2-5 hours a day and want to have fun too. Out of 5 hours 20% can be spent on grinding, that's hour of gameplay per day, out of 2 hours this becomes 50%. Nobody is ready to pay 50% of game time grinding unles he's a complete **rk. That's why those two groups will never understand each other. I suggest BW adds the daily non-pvp bonus that's being added to your stats if you don't pvp for, say, 20 hours. There, when the least playing guy joins the hardcore pvper, they have almost equal stats due to the bonus but after an hour of gameplay bonus starts to vanish totally vanishing in 2 hours, if that guy wants to continue having the same fun he'll have to get the BM gear, and the gear will be easier to get not forcing him to loose several hundreds of games to higher-geared hardcore pvpers. Remember - both these guys play the same monthly subscription. So they must be treated equally.

[AstralProjection]

I rolled an alt, ironically most of the good pvpers on my server are just capping a bunch of toons so the 10-49 bracket is full of familiar legacy names and highly competitive matches. However, stat balanced pvp with everyone having all abilities/talents (level 50) would be the best of both worlds; and would be by far the best PvP experience SWTOR could offer me.

 

There is a power gap in 10-49 based on # talent points spent and gear level/current player level, but it's inconsequential compared to the level 50 raid/BM gear vs level 50 scrub geared.

 

 

That last paragraph is completely insane. Talent points are so much more effective than expertise in PVP it's not even funny. Talent points are the *only* thing making your character effective in PVP.

 

The gap between a 10 and a 49 in talent points is infinitely more powerful than just a 10% change in damage, damage taken, and healing.

 

It just sounds like you like to quit to me. I started fresh at 50 the same way everyone else did.

 

I went in in greens and killed the battlemasters/champ geared people that were bad. Lost to the ones that were actually good.

 

In a couple days I had enough expertise there was ZERO barrier to PVPing even against the people who had been geared for much longer than me.

 

The people saying it's impossible to beat a Battlemaster are flat out lying. Expertise isn't the reason you're losing.

 

Coordinated teams, in all good gear, versus PUG's, that's the reason you're losing. You don't like it? Start a team. You can all be in Champ gear the first week the way BW set this up.

 

It's sickening how many people want to do nothing to earn their items. End game equipment used to mean something before WoW. Like other people in this thread said, this is part of an RPG - you WORK toward something, then ACHIEVE IT. You don't get a happy meal toy after every match.

Edited February 21, 2012 by AstralProjection

[Cluttered]

I'm leaving the level 50 bracket because my class is not balanced fairly while other classes have become gods. That has nothing to do with removing all Expertise gear.

[venjinze]

Nope. I don't want gear to matter.

 

Player vs Player.

 

Not gear vs. gear.

 

Come on, if you are a PVPer you don't need the crutch. Don't hide behind your gear.

 

Very subjective opinion, I personally like to PvP against people of equal gear & skill level.

 

No one is hiding behing their gear, they've earned it, just as people who primarily focus and spend time PvEing have earned their gear. Should we not reward people who PvE, is it an unfair advantage that a group of rakata geared people can roll through a HM/NM op in 45 mins while a bunch of new 50's can't complete it on normal mode?

 

I don't understand, in practically any relevant MMO there has been PvP gear. This isn't anything unprecedented. Eventually there will be ratings and those hardcore PvPers will be matched up against others w/ skill & gear equiv.

 

PvP gear is very easily obtainable, in 2-3 weeks you'll have a full set, don't expect to be able to compete with people who have been pvping longer at 50 as soon as you get there, makes no sense. MMO's are about progression.

[iceperson]

That last paragraph is completely insane. Talent points are so much more effective than expertise in PVP it's not even funny. Talent points are the *only* thing making your character effective in PVP.

 

The gap between a 10 and a 49 in talent points is infinitely more powerful than just a 10% change in damage, damage taken, and healing.

 

It just sounds like you like to quit to me. I started fresh at 50 the same way everyone else did.

 

I went in in greens and killed the battlemasters/champ geared people that were bad. Lost to the ones that were actually good.

 

In a couple days I had enough expertise there was ZERO barrier to PVPing even against the people who had been geared for much longer than me.

 

The people saying it's impossible to beat a Battlemaster are flat out lying. Expertise isn't the reason you're losing.

 

Coordinated teams, in all good gear, versus PUG's, that's the reason you're losing. You don't like it? Start a team. You can all be in Champ gear the first week the way BW set this up.

 

It's sickening how many people want to do nothing to earn their items. End game equipment used to mean something before WoW. Like other people in this thread said, this is part of an RPG - you WORK toward something, then ACHIEVE IT. You don't get a happy meal toy after every match.

 

lol. i remember consistently getting top dmg and 9-11 medals on my jug throughout the 20s without breaking a sweat. i suggest you spend some time in 10-49 warzones and stop talking out of your @#$%