What does the 1-49 bracket teach us about PVP gear?

[Torleen]

You should read further.

 

The solution is just more gear badges int he champ bags.

 

thats it.

 

Go to Ilum and Belsavis. Do your dalies for two days.

 

Step into PvP in full level 51 purples (better than the starter/centurion PvP gear).

 

Time invested:

 

six hours.

 

(and you can do it pre-50)

 

George did not refer to what the solution was going to be to deal with disparity. He stated the disparity between fresh 50s and full geared 50's was too high. They have not detailed how they are going to deal with it yet. Giving out the gear easier would certainly help.

[Noctournys]

It was a bad attempt to introduce the carrot on the stick element to something that should of never been about gear in the first place. HOURS spent in PVP pre-PVP stat gear prove that it was not nessacary. It is a marketing/business decision they make that they hope will keep people coming back. This is not diablo 2.

 

When new gear comes out say every six months or something and it is entertaining to get it is not a big deal. But it's about the advantage it gives. I should not auto-lose just because someone has that gear. And getting gear should not be a requirement to not simply face plant every time I got into a WZ.

 

No, it was to prevent raiders from curb stomping people in PvP simply because they raided.

 

It had nothing to do with carrot-and-stick.. it was, actually, implemented as a way to defeat the effects of the carrot in the primary portion of the game (PvE) and the effect it was having on PvP.

 

So an alternate gear path was implemented that didnt require you to raid.

[Noctournys]

George did not refer to what the solution was going to be to deal with disparity. He stated the disparity between fresh 50s and full geared 50's was too high. They have not detailed how they are going to deal with it yet. Giving out the gear easier would certainly help.

 

ahem:

 

It's obvious from comments here that the patch note is not specific enough, so we'll get it updated before the patch goes to the live servers. Here are some specifics:

 

Champion Bags now always contain 15 Centurion Commendations AND 7 Champion Commendations. Battlemaster Bags now always contain 15 Champion Commendations. So Centurion gearing up progression for new level 50s is increased significantly and Champion gearing up progression will be steady.

 

We do still intend on adding more intro level 50 PvP items as well as change how Battlemaster Commendations operate toward the same 'steady' goal. It's just the scope of that change was more than could be done in a weekly patch as it included vendor changes, conversions to existing commendations on players already, etc.

 

That being said, the current interim 'gearing up' system will change significantly when we introduce Ranked Warzones (aiming for Game Update 1.2). Stay tuned for more details on that.

 

- Gabe

 

Fully detailed, thanks.

[GRINnBARRETT]

The problem with not having expertise is that the pvper will be forced to raid in order to remain competitive. Some people do this already. I do not. I shouldn't be forced to pve in order to be competitive in pvp.

 

BW could allow for pvp crafted gear or allow levelers to stack champion bags. Expecting new 50s to grind in order to be at least somewhat competitive is pretty asinine.

 

There's a solution in there somewhere if BW chooses to go that route.

 

In the end, I'm in favor of making sure that the 50s bracket population continues to grow with low queue times. If this means I have to give up some of my gear advantage then so be it.

[Torleen]

As part of this effort, specifically for PvP, we are also working on changes that will reduce the gear related power difference between new characters at level 50 and players in full PvP gear. We feel that at the current time, this difference is too high.

 

They can introduce more gear for 50's. But the point is, they acknowledge that there is a serious problem with the numbers that you are claiming are not a problem. You claimed you had supposedly debunked the gear disparity issue as if it was a myth or something. It's not. And just because he is going to give us gear faster earlier on does not somehow mean it was not a problem. Because it was.

[Noctournys]

I find the "we intend to add more starting PvP items to the mix" to be...

 

i dunno, i guess they dont understand their own itemization.

 

If it is lower level than centurion it will be totally useless garbage.

 

An example:

 

Centurion Field Tech's Leggings:

73 cunning, 71 endurance, 39 expertise, 40 accuracy (lol), 36 crit

 

Or my orange modded legs: (made pre-50, from daily quests)

66 cunning, 95 endurance (!), 21 power, 27 crit, 39 surge

 

Now multiply that over the entire set of gear... add in BiS crafted implants and earpieces you can pick up on the GTN for cheap.

 

significantly better than Centurion all around. You gain FAR more HP than the 8% expertise or so the set gives, and the FAR better dps stats equal out to more than an 8% dps gain across the board.

[Noctournys]

They can introduce more gear for 50's. But the point is, they acknowledge that there is a serious problem with the numbers that you are claiming are not a problem. You claimed you had supposedly debunked the gear disparity issue as if it was a myth or something. It's not. And just because he is going to give us gear faster earlier on does not somehow mean it was not a problem. Because it was.

 

I did. You either didn't read it or didn't understand it. See the above post. (for both why new, even lower than centurion gear would be totally worthless, and how centurion, as it is, isnt that useful).

[Torleen]

I did. You either didn't read it or didn't understand it. See the above post. (for both why new, even lower than centurion gear would be totally worthless, and how centurion, as it is, isnt that useful).

 

What you are suggesting in your math is not holding up to reality.

[richardya]

I play in both the 50 and the 10-49 brackets.

 

No offense but 10-49 is like no skill level. People Cap in voidstar in like the first minute, often. I am not sure the only reason 50 is harder is 100% the gear. It's also because most people there know what they are doing.

 

The gear disadvantage is real BUT.... It only lasts a short time. After like 3 weeks you will have some decent gear if you do dailies and weeklies. The BM - Champ diff is not that big a deal.

 

Not to mention the other side has the same issue. relax, if you are not the top damage in your group it's ok. You can still contribute a lot.

 

In a WZ you are not 1 Vs 1, you are with a team & the gear should not determine everything.The abilities of the classes make them valuable in fresh gear. An 11K sage can still friendly pull and 11K Knight can leap to score in Huttball. An 9K gunslinger can dot an entire team to prevent caps in Voidstar etc.

Edited February 6, 2012 by richardya

[Cygann]

Oh I'm sorry, you thought this was an FPS game. See in MMO's there is this thing called progression. I know this is a foreign concept to you but it is what every MMO is based on.

 

This is where you are mistaken, I see you don't really understand the difference between MMO and RPG.

 

And no, not every massive online game is a gear centric. You either didn't play any that are not RPG, or are too young to remember what gaming was like in times when games were not made so everyone and their pets can finish them given the enough time.

 

Character progression is part of every decent RPG, but gear doesn't have to have such a huge impact, it can be a minor thing.

 

MMO on the other hand can just as well be TPS like some hopefully good ones soon will be, or in future when hardware gets even better, FPS as well.

 

This is a common mistake in consolitis era, when all PC players are left with are bad console ports and even worse MMORPG grind games.

[sheerhatred]

I'm sorry but gear based PVP is retarded. Dark age of Camelot hit on the head with thier PVP system. You went out got some crafted armor added some resist robot go PVP until you had enough cash to get higher qaulity crafted amor. You mixed and match some artifacts and jewels but it was not the grind. This is not PvP, just a grind to get amor then what?

 

DAOC realm point system was were it was at. All this grinding for gear is straight lame. Anyone who came from DAoc or game like shadow bane will tell you what real PVP is.

[dannomite]

What you are suggesting in your math is not holding up to reality.

 

He's not taking into account the value of expertise which provides scaling damage reduction, and scaling damage/healing increase. Having an ~ 10 percent damage reduction is like having 10 percent more health in your pool and to boot, you deal 10 percent more damage to players that don't have your level of expertise.

[Noctournys]

He's not taking into account the value of expertise which provides scaling damage reduction, and scaling damage/healing increase. Having an ~ 10 percent damage reduction is like having 10 percent more health in your pool and to boot, you deal 10 percent more damage to players that don't have your level of expertise.

 

In fact I am:

 

10% damage reduction is like having 10% more health:

 

Correct, except, as youll see below, you end up with MORE than 10% extra health. More like 18-20%

 

You also end up with 20-25% more dps stats and better itemized, as well.

 

 

An (expanded) example:

 

Centurion Field Tech's Leggings:

73 cunning, 71 endurance, 39 expertise, 40 accuracy (lol), 36 crit

 

Or my orange modded legs: (made pre-50, from daily quests)

66 cunning, 95 endurance (!), 21 power, 27 crit, 39 surge

 

Now multiply that over the entire set of gear... add in BiS crafted implants and earpieces you can pick up on the GTN for cheap.

 

significantly better than Centurion all around. You gain FAR more HP than the 8% expertise or so the set gives, and the FAR better dps stats equal out to more than an 8% dps gain across the board, making the expertise on the set a completely moot issue.

 

edit:

to fit this into a "whole set" perspective -

 

thats... 240 more HP per piece, x 6 pieces (5 orange armor pieces, + an orange weapon) so.. a base of 1440 HP.

 

Then we move on to the truly terrible pieces, belt, bracers, earpieces, and implants.

 

If you can get an orange belt, the difference is even more startling:

 

Centurion Field Techs Belt:

66 cunning, 47 endurance, 39expertise, 8 power

 

Or my crafted belt (which i currently use because its still better than a CHAMPION belt):

93 cunning, 61 endurance, 34 power

 

I could get a bit more endurance there if i switched the armoring to Patron instead of SKill, so well go with that number instead - 71 endurance, 83 cunning. Another 240 endurance difference, bringing us to:

 

1680 more HP than Centurion gear.. 140 primary stat, + loads of extra power, and crit, and surge.

 

The wrist pieces are identical, so we can add another 240 HP...bringing us to

 

+1920 HP over Centurion + loads of DPS stats (or defensive stats if you're a tank)

 

Moving on to earpiece:

 

Centurion Enforcers Device:

56 cunning, 64 endurance, 39 expertise, 40accuracy, 40 crit

 

compared to a BoE:

 

Rakata Enforcer's Device:

85 cunning, 98 endurance, 51 power, 51 surge.

 

a difference of 34 endurance (+ dps stats).. 340 more HP, bringing us to:

 

+2260 HP over centurion

 

and lastly, implants:

 

Centurion Enforcer's Package:

66 cunning, 60 endurance, 39 expertise, 40 accuracy, 34 crit

 

or

 

Rakata Field Medic's Package (better stats):

103 cunning, 85 endurance, 44 crit, 51 surge

 

a difference of 25 endurance, or 250 HP more than Centurion, EACH, bringing our total to:

 

+2760 HP over centurion gear, not including relics (everyone should have their matrix shard, so moot), and almost 200 of your primary stat, + far better itemized crit/surge/whatever stat you need.

 

And you dont need to PvP for any of it.. or even do anything hard.

 

Just do some dalies for a few total hours and spend a little bit of the cash you made on dalies on crafted implants/ears/belt/bracers.

[HanzBlix]

I think it is more fun without the PvP gear in the 1-49 bracket. However in a game with raid gear, it forces the devs to have PvP gear so that people that just want to PvP can compete with people who primarily raid.

 

If there was no PvP gear, people would just come in with PvE gear and wreck shop. Not really fair to those folks that want to focus on PvP, they need to be able to get at some equivalent gear in a different progression path.

 

I suppose you could make it so raid quality gear could be obtained through PvP, but then the raiders heads would explode.

 

I do some of each, so I don't really care either way. I think that's pretty much why it works the way it does in most MMO's. It's simply the raider vs. pvp player situation.

[Sevvy]

If Expertise is removed, raiding gear will become the pinnacle of PvP gear. I'm fine with that if everyone else is.

[PaZZo]

The problem is, how do you get people to pvp if gear doesn't matter and they don't have that carrot on a stick?

 

well, call me old school, but i PvP for the fun of it, not for the gear, and it's terrible for me having to go the other way around, needing gear (at least some) to have fun in pvp.

 

 

Problem is the playerbase, apparently 99% of the people need an "incentive" to pvp.

 

 

TBH all the incentive i ever needed in a dozen years of online gaming is to kick some other guy's *ss.

 

Oh, and bragging rights. The good old times.

Edited February 6, 2012 by PaZZo

[Sevvy]

well, call me old school, but i PvP for the fun of it, not for the gear, and it's terrible for me having to go the other way around, needing gear (at least some) to have fun in pvp.

 

 

Problem is the playerbase, apparently 99% of the people need an "incentive" to pvp.

 

 

TBH all the incentive i ever needed in a dozen years of online gaming is to kick some other guy's *ss.

 

Oh, and bragging rights. The good old times.

 

WoW, set a precedent. PvP used to be about raiding another guild's base, sacking a player city, fighting for resources, beating the other player, etc.

 

Since World of Warcraft, PvP is treated the EXACT same way that PvE is.

 

PvP is now about grinding instances for gear so that you can more effectively grind instances for gear. This is the worst PvP system that has ever been implemented in a MMO EVER. Take away the stupid little rewards for PvP and what happens? 90% of everyone that PvPs stops PvPing. And why is that? Because even if they consider themselves to be PvPers, they're PvPing because they want gear. ThAT IS THE WRONG REASON FOR PVP TO EXIST!

 

In my opinion, they should remove instanced PvP altogether. Remove PvP gear. Expand the worlds, and have rare spawns on those worlds that drop crafting materials for BiS items. Add places that can hold bases. If a faction controls a base, that faction has exclusive rights to the resources in the area. Those resources cannot be obtained by the other faction until the base is sacked and control is taken.

 

Something that promotes PvP for something other than an individual grind for gear. A system that forces guilds to work together to protect their faction. A system that promotes rivalries and alliances. A system that actually promotes having a real community.

 

As it stands, this game is like every new MMO. It's a glorified chat program with instanced carrot dangling to keep people playing.

 

Wall of text. TLDR. /rant

Edited February 6, 2012 by Sevvy

[Noctournys]

WoW, set a precedent. PvP used to be about raiding another guild's base, sacking a player city, fighting for resources, beating the other player, etc.

 

Since World of Warcraft, PvP is treated the EXACT same way that PvE is.

 

PvP is now about grinding instances for gear so that you can more effectively grind instances for gear.

 

In my opinion, they should remove instanced PvP altogether. Remove PvP gear. Expand the worlds, and have rare spawns on those worlds that drop crafting materials for BiS items. Add places that can hold bases. If a faction controls a base, that faction has exclusive rights to the resources in the area. Those resources cannot be obtained by the other faction until the base is sacked and control is taken.

 

Something that promotes PvP for something other than an individual grind for gear. A system that forces guilds to work together to protect their faction. A system that promotes rivalries and alliances. A system that actually promotes having a real community.

 

As it stands, this game is like every new MMO. It's a glorified chat program with instanced carrot dangling to keep people playing.

 

Wall of text. TLDR. /rant

 

This wont promote PvP, it will promote ZvZ.

 

World PvP has always been about ZvZ, and nothing more. Trying to imply otherwise is borderline delusional.

[dwgagner]

People are leaving the 50's bracket and re-rolling characters so that they can continue to PVP in the 1-49 Brackets.

 

Lets really think about what that means.

 

It means that people would rather do the PVE grind AGAIN then put up with being the equivalent of being grey mobs in WZs who's purpose seems to be to entertain no one but the people who are lucky enough to have more free time or unlucky enough to simply have no life who get to kill you over and over again.

 

It means that PVP is MORE exciting when your adrenaline is pumping because you are in a pitched battle with someone who does the same damage and takes the same damage you do and it really comes down to quick thinking, reflexes and strategy that you EARNED through practice rather then because you have a statistical advantage over your opponent. Where the timing of every shot counts. And obviously that is going to be more exciting then losing simply because your opponent hits far harder and takes far less damage.

 

Gear based "PVP" is not a test of a player vs a player unless people really think that because someone was able to do more repetitive tasks over and over again because they don't have kids, or a job or a life (Or simply are willing to sacrifice those things they should be spending more time on) is somehow something that people can be tested for and be lauded as if they "accomplished" something.

 

The grind olympics? Is that something you want to be remembered for? You were better at wasting more time in your life then someone else so you "win"?

 

If we are going to have brackets, I think we should have a bracket where Expertise is shut off. ESPECIALLY if you are thinking E-sport. And ESPECIALLY if you are going to have a PVP rating system.

 

I have a feeling that bracket would be far more populated.

 

I don't want to have to RAID for good gear to PVP.

 

Removing PVP gear means everyone is forced to raid to get good gear for PVP.

 

Won't happen, so stop freaking crying about it, pvp more, buy some freakin gear and sthu.

[DJJAZZY]

What I've learned in this thread is that people don't care about pvp, they care about gear. Gear makes the world go around. If not for gear, there would be a lot less people playing pvp (which would suit me just fine, the most fun pvp I've played in was Guild Wars).

 

Actually, it's the same with raiding. The vast majority of raiders only do it for gear.

 

Do you see what Diablo and the diablo mmo, wow, has turned all of this into?

[PaZZo]

This wont promote PvP, it will promote ZvZ.

 

World PvP has always been about ZvZ, and nothing more. Trying to imply otherwise is borderline delusional.

 

 

i beg to differ.

 

World PvP has not ever been about ZvZ.

 

In DAOC, on my server (US, Lancelot) the 8v8 scene was VERY strong, for quite a long period of time the majority of people roamed in groups of 8 (1 full group), some defied the rules and rolled 2 FGs, usually to get stomped by a superior 8men, or great 8men going and busting the zerg. There was an honor code most groups stuck to, even if it was 3 realms, if there was an ongoing fight between 2 groups, /most/ of the groups would not add to the fight and let the battle go. Heck, i remember several occasion when my gank (midgard at the time) was in a fight with another guild and then 1 or 2 groups of the 3rd realm added the fight (or *** jammed, as we called it) and the 2 original groups fought side by side to stomp on the adders. Zerging was usually condemned and pointed at, and since at times bragging rights were pretty much everything for dedicated PvPers, well, it worked.

 

 

Or in WAR, my guild on karak eight peaks, and several others, ran very small numbers, and went zerg busting or engaged in pretty epic 6v6 fights. Altough we were a minorities, since most people wanted their shiny item and prefeared zerging empty keeps and such, or have massive laggy battles randomly mashing buttons. But, well, they wanted the incentive (gear) and that was the most efficient way to get it. Screw the fun.

 

AION, rolled in small group, got bored really fast tho so i can't speak.

 

Rift... pretty much not ow PVP untill i got bored and quit.

 

GW, no open PvP, no gear to take advantage from, best PvP ever xD

 

and that sums up my experience with MMOs, never played WoW >_>

 

 

 

truth is, bad players need the gear advantage to take on decent players, when even that fails, it's time to start calling for nerfs indeed

Edited February 6, 2012 by PaZZo

[Darth_Gao_Gao]

the entire premise of your post is flawed, completely.

 

thanks for trying though.

[Sevvy]

This wont promote PvP, it will promote ZvZ.

 

World PvP has always been about ZvZ, and nothing more. Trying to imply otherwise is borderline delusional.

 

The base wars aspect of it might be a zerg at times. But fighting for spawns, and giving players a reason to be out in the world and willing to fight for resources will promote a lot of fun small skirmishes that could escalate into all-out war.

 

There are so many possibilities. Assuming that every fight will become a zergfest in a system with so many different ways to find PvP is borderline delusional.

 

Touché, mothertrucker!

Edited February 6, 2012 by Sevvy

[HKaRii]

I vastly prefer 1-49. No gear requirement. It helps to be a higher level, but rarely does a team have an inherent advantage that can't be overcome. The 50 bracket is the complete opposite. I have abandoned by ungeared 50 and enjoy playing with my 4 alts of various levels.

 

 

It's simple. We kill the expertise.

[JediDuckling]

People are leaving the 50's bracket and re-rolling characters so that they can continue to PVP in the 1-49 Brackets.

 

Lets really think about what that means.

 

It means that people would rather do the PVE grind AGAIN then put up with being the equivalent of being grey mobs in WZs who's purpose seems to be to entertain no one but the people who are lucky enough to have more free time or unlucky enough to simply have no life who get to kill you over and over again.

 

It means that PVP is MORE exciting when your adrenaline is pumping because you are in a pitched battle with someone who does the same damage and takes the same damage you do and it really comes down to quick thinking, reflexes and strategy that you EARNED through practice rather then because you have a statistical advantage over your opponent. Where the timing of every shot counts. And obviously that is going to be more exciting then losing simply because your opponent hits far harder and takes far less damage.

 

Gear based "PVP" is not a test of a player vs a player unless people really think that because someone was able to do more repetitive tasks over and over again because they don't have kids, or a job or a life (Or simply are willing to sacrifice those things they should be spending more time on) is somehow something that people can be tested for and be lauded as if they "accomplished" something.

 

The grind olympics? Is that something you want to be remembered for? You were better at wasting more time in your life then someone else so you "win"?

 

If we are going to have brackets, I think we should have a bracket where Expertise is shut off. ESPECIALLY if you are thinking E-sport. And ESPECIALLY if you are going to have a PVP rating system.

 

I have a feeling that bracket would be far more populated.

 

nothing because

 

from 10-49 there is more problems than at 50

 

1. some class's dont get there main abilitys tilll later on

2. some class's are better 10-49 than at 50

3. 31+ still have advantages over low lvl's

4. pvp is broken

 

 

and there is more