What does the 1-49 bracket teach us about PVP gear?

[karnyboy]

Simple: Remove Expertise as a stat. Keep the gear, get better stats and atts, gear set bonues, etc. Just get rid of a PvP only stat that circumvents skill.

 

Real PvP'rs play for the fun of the fight and to grow in skills, everyone else is just a gear whore that hides behind Expertise.

 

Except without expertise they guy that can run OPS and Hard mode groups as often as possible will be the top dog.

 

You need expertise or some type of pvp stat in an MMO to balance the play field. without it you have the hardcore PVE players dominating all aspects of the game which oddly enough is more unfair to the masses than the apparent "plight" people are having with expertise.

[Noollig]

NO! NO! NO!

 

Gear destroys world PVP... if anything leave it the WF's!!

 

World PvP is typically a bunch of people ganging up on other people and removing the gear factor from world PvP is the same as removing the gear factor from PvE...

 

Warzones are controlled areas where they've already shown they can adjust stats without screwing up PvE. A warzone is a test of skill, that is the place where gear should not matter.

[Noollig]

Except without expertise they guy that can run OPS and Hard mode groups as often as possible will be the top dog.

 

You need expertise or some type of pvp stat in an MMO to balance the play field. without it you have the hardcore PVE players dominating all aspects of the game which oddly enough is more unfair to the masses than the apparent "plight" people are having with expertise.

 

So normalize stats for everyone at 50 in a way similar to how they bolster stats prior to 50. In a warzone, gear should not determine the outcome... ever. Skill should be the defining factor. Ratings, titles, vanity crap can be the reward. The gear you get out of PvP should be to keep you competitive in the other aspects of the game so you can go do some PvE if you want to.

 

Expertise is a crutch for PvP'ers in world PvP. If a guy kills a dragon and gets some awesome gear, why should he be at a disadvantage? BM gear is just as good as any PvE gear, and you can even swap mods if you get better PvE stuff. If a guy has BM gear from doing tons of PvP, he should be able to beat a guy who has primarily geared off of PvE if he is truly a skilled PvPer. Expertise is not necessary.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Noollig
apparantly bad-***** is a no-no

[bejay]

100% agree there should be a 50 bracket with what ever gear u want(no expertise)

 

i lvled my sorc to 50 and i loved the pvp while lvling,it was a blast owning higher lvl toons and getting owned by lower lvl toons,it all comes down to skill and knowing ur class and then i hit 50 and the pvp just died in the a*s because u just know its based around the stats and not the skill of the player,ive come across alot of geared players that have no idea how to play thier class and takes them ages to kill me(gotta luv LoS/interupts) and im not that good.

i rerolled a trooper and im loving the pvp again so please BW bring in a bracket with no expertise, more players will be playing in that bracket because it is more fun, somthing ppl seem to have forgoten what games are about!!!!

[FriarChuggs]

It means that people would rather do the PVE grind AGAIN then put up with being the equivalent of being grey mobs in WZs who's purpose seems to be to entertain no one but the people who are lucky enough to have more free time or unlucky enough to simply have no life who get to kill you over and over again. [/b]

 

/Agreed

 

 

Solution is to lower the gap between top tier PvP gear and entry-level PvP gear. There should be a gear reward for heavily investing in PvP, but it should be a surmountable advantage, not make you invincible to less-geared players.

 

Expertise needs to stay, it is the only reason PvE gear doesn't dominate PvP. The solution is just a purchaseable Cent-quality gear set you can get when you ding 50.

[Kai-Eurah-Tird]

100% agree there should be a 50 bracket with what ever gear u want(no expertise)

 

i lvled my sorc to 50 and i loved the pvp while lvling,it was a blast owning higher lvl toons and getting owned by lower lvl toons,it all comes down to skill and knowing ur class and then i hit 50 and the pvp just died in the a*s because u just know its based around the stats and not the skill of the player,ive come across alot of geared players that have no idea how to play thier class and takes them ages to kill me(gotta luv LoS/interupts) and im not that good.

i rerolled a trooper and im loving the pvp again so please BW bring in a bracket with no expertise, more players will be playing in that bracket because it is more fun, somthing ppl seem to have forgoten what games are about!!!!

 

Guys like you are gonna cry when guys in full Rakata Gear steam roll you in WZ. Then your post will be "Why do I have to PVE to get good gear to PVP?"

 

Whiners are gonna whine. Haters are gonna hate.

[CrunchyGremlin]

No gear drop/destruction screws the whole system.

 

no gear economy is the path of stagnation.

Stagnation leads to dissatisfaction

dissatisfaction leads to unsubs.

Unsubs leads to GW2.

 

RPGPVP requires sandbox or good PvP story progression.

[Calei]

It teaches us that people are lazy and want everything given to them.

 

It teaches us that people are cowards and need a bazooka to defeat someone with a toothpick.

[Stongrel]

All the scrubs are rerolling easymode 1-49 alts because they get crushed at 50.

 

/end discussion

[Ace_Odear]

PVP gear is a bad joke played on good players. Only bad players need it. And thats what the level 10-49 bracket shows me. Gear doesnt mean a thing. 10-49 is skill based.

 

I dont have the gear or abilities of a lvl 49, i can have a total of 4 abilities at level 10 vs his 20+ and i can still win. Its a great test of skill and speed. Level 50 pvp it all changes. Its all about gear, he who has it beats he who does not. Your skill and speed is negated by thier gear.

 

I tried the 50 bracket, i got 400+ exp. but just the job it was to get all the pieces i have was anticlimactic. It wasnt fun, it was a chore. The NASCAR around Illum will kill me, i cant do it.

 

PVPing in the 10-49 bracket is pure. Its exciting. Im currently lvl 23 merc and i can compete and succeed. Thats a challenge! Thats fun. Yeah bolster brings me up to them but they have all the abilities and plenty of points in thier trees to give them all kinds of stuff.

 

And I can still compete.

 

10-49 is pure skill.

 

The 50 bracket is gear grind crap. Im sorry Bioware I truly love your games but in the handling of pvp you suck.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Ace_Odear

[Dreadker]

I'd say that 1-38 proves that gear is not a factor... at 38 you can pull the expertise enhancements out of weapons and put them in the gear for an edge... and it does make a ridiculous difference...

 

I'd usually top out around 280k a match at level 37.... i dinged lvl 40, put on pvp gear with a +11 expertise enhancement in every piece that has a slot and now can consistently break 310k, get 3k+ crits with a 90% crit rate on my merc...

 

Just remove expertise and just add cool looking gear with the same stats imo - so you get a solid gold looking BH set that matches if your valor rank 100...

 

True pvp fans/players care about the view of the reward, not being horrendously overpowered that they can 1 shot someone... people who need to 1 shot people just gank lowbies for their false sense of superiority...

 

remove expertise entirely or cap it with all gear being equal and give us different looking gear, titles, mounts, non combat pets, shiny things that don't affect balance etc...

 

Thats my view ;-)

[Callo]

Oh I'm sorry, you thought this was an FPS game. See in MMO's there is this thing called progression. I know this is a foreign concept to you but it is what every MMO is based on.

 

Actually, most FPS's nowadays include progression in order to obtain better weapons/mods/etc. So your analogy is incorrect. If you said "Oh I'm sorry, you thought this was an old school FPS game like Quake. Sadly most modern FPS's have the stupid progression BS too.", you would make more sense. Gear progression is not entirely difficult in this game now that they made the changes. My new main got full PvP gear in 2 days no problem. Not all Champion gear but that will come in time. Guild Wars 2 is shaping up to be a more true to PvP MMO. It's far more skill based, and has no gear progression. Just you vs. your opponent and whomever is the better player (or gets the most crits if both are equal in ability) wins. That is real PvP. That is more like the old school shooters that let people just jump in and let everyone be on the same level from the start. What would this mean for TOR if they had this? It would mean all the cry babies who like gear based PvP and have no idea what they are doing would get wrecked by better players who just hit 50. Those who actually knew what they were doing and how to play their class and didn't need the gear in the first place probably wouldn't care because they would still face roll baddies. Anyone who says otherwise is most likely a badster in disguise.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Callo

[Callo]

I'd say that 1-38 proves that gear is not a factor... at 38 you can pull the expertise enhancements out of weapons and put them in the gear for an edge... and it does make a ridiculous difference...

 

I'd usually top out around 280k a match at level 37.... i dinged lvl 40, put on pvp gear with a +11 expertise enhancement in every piece that has a slot and now can consistently break 310k, get 3k+ crits with a 90% crit rate on my merc...

 

Just remove expertise and just add cool looking gear with the same stats imo - so you get a solid gold looking BH set that matches if your valor rank 100...

 

True pvp fans/players care about the view of the reward, not being horrendously overpowered that they can 1 shot someone... people who need to 1 shot people just gank lowbies for their false sense of superiority...

 

remove expertise entirely or cap it with all gear being equal and give us different looking gear, titles, mounts, non combat pets, shiny things that don't affect balance etc...

 

Thats my view ;-)

Completely agree with you man. Expertise is a crutch for the people who can't play on our level. When I hit BM on my Scoundrel it's gonna be fun absolutely face rolling those BMs who run away from me now.

[Tyranoc]

Completely agree with you man. Expertise is a crutch for the people who can't play on our level. When I hit BM on my Scoundrel it's gonna be fun absolutely face rolling those BMs who run away from me now.

 

I like your style... You are at least willing to fight and earn your BM gear. And yes when you have it the playingfield will be equal and you can show them how crap they are.

I just wish the rest of the crying whingey 2 year old care bears on this thread were more like you and put their effort into earnin their gear like everyone else rather than whinging and screaming saying its unfair and that they should either have the gear GIVEN to them or have the gear TAKEN AWAY from everyone because they are butt hurt.

 

I had to fight geared players for my gear. I got the crap kicked outta me ALOT. But now im geared. Its like a process of initiation. And if these people who claim to be skillful MMO ninjas then they should have no problems earning their gear!!!!!!!!!

 

And once that is all done they can stop crying... Until a new set comes out and others get it beofre they do.

[Celticprince]

Oh I'm sorry, you thought this was an FPS game. See in MMO's there is this thing called progression. I know this is a foreign concept to you but it is what every MMO is based on.

 

Correction WoW was the first game to do PvP gear based progression with a unique stat specific for PvP. All the mmo's before it never had any rewards for pvp other then bragging rights.

 

PvP gear was the only real "orignal" thing created by blizzard for WoW and it has stuck with the mmo genre ever since.

[Viree]

I don't need a carot to play PVP. I love PVP. I just despise development studios making me run on a hamster wheel chasing gear. That's not what PVP is.

 

If you need a carrot on a stick to get you to play a video game, you need to go see a doctor.

 

I realize there's like 80 pages, but still... you are so right. When I started playing MMOs, like UO, Everquest, DAOC, etc. PVP was there because people liked to actually fight against other people. You didn't get much in the way of rewards (UO yes but you lost even more), but it was still thoroughly enjoyable. There wasn't these massive distortions in who had better armor would win a fight... it was actually about who could play their class better, or be more strategic in accomplishing objectives. In SWTOR (and WoW from my memory of it) you often wind up with one team completely dominating the other, and it has absolutely zilch to do with them being better players (as much as the people around here want to think that is the case).

 

I find it pretty sad that you broaching this topic has had the majority of people bashing against you. It's something that should be self-evident I'd think.

 

WoW introduced battlegrounds as a dumbed down version of DAOCs battlegrounds. They were more glorified arenas with a scoreboard and a reward at the end. And it seems TOR have done their level best to copy everything that was successful in WoW, which is a real shame because it never was a very good MMO. The worst part is that MMO players now seem to find it not only acceptable but required that it be that way.

[Torleen]

PVP gear is a bad joke played on good players. Only bad players need it. And thats what the level 10-49 bracket shows me. Gear doesnt mean a thing. 10-49 is skill based.

 

I dont have the gear or abilities of a lvl 49, i can have a total of 4 abilities at level 10 vs his 20+ and i can still win. Its a great test of skill and speed. Level 50 pvp it all changes. Its all about gear, he who has it beats he who does not. Your skill and speed is negated by thier gear.

 

I tried the 50 bracket, i got 400+ exp. but just the job it was to get all the pieces i have was anticlimactic. It wasnt fun, it was a chore. The NASCAR around Illum will kill me, i cant do it.

 

PVPing in the 10-49 bracket is pure. Its exciting. Im currently lvl 23 merc and i can compete and succeed. Thats a challenge! Thats fun. Yeah bolster brings me up to them but they have all the abilities and plenty of points in thier trees to give them all kinds of stuff.

 

And I can still compete.

 

10-49 is pure skill.

 

The 50 bracket is gear grind crap. Im sorry Bioware I truly love your games but in the handling of pvp you suck.

 

*Standing Ovation*

[Tyranoc]

Truth is if you are here saying, "I have skill, but 50 bracket is too hard" then you are just making excuses for your lack of skill. Its exactly the same as a kid saying, "Oh I can do a bak flip! they are easy... I just dont want to do one right now."

99.9% of the people on here who are claiming to be the MMO grandmasters are the ones whinging that they cant beat geared people. But I see that exact same thing that you "skilled" players are saying is impossible happen all the time! Hell I am in the full Champ set and I can beat people in BM. I have witnessed ungeared and semi-geared players take down geared players... If so many people can do it why can't you? Alot of you are saying gear is a "crutch" for the unskilled players. I honestly believe you are all making excuses for ur lack of ability. When asked "why dont you just get your own gear to even the playing field?" you all respond with, "Its too hard."

 

Weak.

 

Nothing but a constant flow of weak excuses and cries because you are finding out you are not as good as you think you are.

 

 

As previously mentioned if the PvP sets were changed to have no expertise or abolished all together you exact same people would then whinge about people using PvE sets, which are in fact BETTER than the PvP sets. But then again you "skilled" players wouldnt know that either because you have to do Hardmode Flash Points and Operations to earn them... And once again those are just "too hard" or a "waste of time" for you self proclaimed MMO PvP masters.

 

People keep refering to GW, where gear didnt matter... Well technically it did. You seem to forget that your weapons and armour and stuff could give bonuses like "+15% damage when above/below a certain % of health" or "when hexed" and crap like that... You could make your armour resist more damage, etc... NO ONE used basic stat line gear, even in PvP. And if you claim you did then I call you a liar! People went and collected the good items from bosses and used the Elite armours.

Then came the Elite skills in which players had to acquire. A player who didn not have ANY elite skills was at a disadvantage compared to someone who had access to one or MANY! Yes you could only equip one at a time, but those skills gave you a distinct advantage.

 

Full Battlemaster only gives a +12% damage reduction and boost... Yet GW items would give 10-15% Which is higher. The amount of damage you could reduce in GW was higher than what BM offers... You still had to go out and EARN you Elite skills and Elite armours. Yes there were NO PVP SETS in GW, however people got the elite sets and made their cookie cutter armour and weapons.

Acquiring the Elite skills, Elite armour sets, and all that jazz in GW was just EASIER than what you have to go through in SWTOR. Hence you making more and more excuses.

 

Whats your next excuse going to be???

[keltoigael]

Lineage 2

[L-RANDLE]

*Standing Ovation*

 

How much skill is involved in pressing a button? Really. I would debate that grinders probably play more (i.e. they mash just as good or better than you because they also probably play more than you.....). You consistantly say "gear is a crutch for bad players". Is your crutch that "you don't have the same gear, so I can't test my button mashing skillz"? So if they have gear AND they are more skilled than you, do you get pwned?

 

 

 

GEAR IS NOT EXCLUSIVE AND THIS IS NOT STARWARS BF I/II PEOPLE........

 

Either go get it or don't complain when you get beat. Yeah..... it sucks to grind @ 50, but I like PvP, so...... I will grind. Get your hammer and sickle out and go grind since in the end, you want PvP to be more commie where it dont matter how much time you put in, you will be at the same level as designated by x.....

 

On a side note, the whole bracket thing was a stupid idea, there is no way a level 10 should hold a candle to me. If they wouldn't in open world PvP, they shouldn't in warzone. If they were going to bracket it, they should have made more separation between levels.

 

 

 

PS: I really don't get why people don't understand RPG's whether mmo, j, single, are ALL grindfests at the core. If you feel dooped by BW when the said it would not be a grindfest, just stop playing.

[L-RANDLE]

Truth is if you are here saying, "I have skill, but 50 bracket is too hard" then you are just making excuses for your lack of skill. Its exactly the same as a kid saying, "Oh I can do a bak flip! they are easy... I just dont want to do one right now."

99.9% of the people on here who are claiming to be the MMO grandmasters are the ones whinging that they cant beat geared people. But I see that exact same thing that you "skilled" players are saying is impossible happen all the time! Hell I am in the full Champ set and I can beat people in BM. I have witnessed ungeared and semi-geared players take down geared players... If so many people can do it why can't you? Alot of you are saying gear is a "crutch" for the unskilled players. I honestly believe you are all making excuses for ur lack of ability. When asked "why dont you just get your own gear to even the playing field?" you all respond with, "Its too hard."

 

Weak.

 

Nothing but a constant flow of weak excuses and cries because you are finding out you are not as good as you think you are.

 

 

As previously mentioned if the PvP sets were changed to have no expertise or abolished all together you exact same people would then whinge about people using PvE sets, which are in fact BETTER than the PvP sets. But then again you "skilled" players wouldnt know that either because you have to do Hardmode Flash Points and Operations to earn them... And once again those are just "too hard" or a "waste of time" for you self proclaimed MMO PvP masters.

 

People keep refering to GW, where gear didnt matter... Well technically it did. You seem to forget that your weapons and armour and stuff could give bonuses like "+15% damage when above/below a certain % of health" or "when hexed" and crap like that... You could make your armour resist more damage, etc... NO ONE used basic stat line gear, even in PvP. And if you claim you did then I call you a liar! People went and collected the good items from bosses and used the Elite armours.

Then came the Elite skills in which players had to acquire. A player who didn not have ANY elite skills was at a disadvantage compared to someone who had access to one or MANY! Yes you could only equip one at a time, but those skills gave you a distinct advantage.

 

Full Battlemaster only gives a +12% damage reduction and boost... Yet GW items would give 10-15% Which is higher. The amount of damage you could reduce in GW was higher than what BM offers... You still had to go out and EARN you Elite skills and Elite armours. Yes there were NO PVP SETS in GW, however people got the elite sets and made their cookie cutter armour and weapons.

Acquiring the Elite skills, Elite armour sets, and all that jazz in GW was just EASIER than what you have to go through in SWTOR. Hence you making more and more excuses.

 

Whats your next excuse going to be???

 

+1 I guess you beat me to the punch...

[Torleen]

How much skill is involved in pressing a button? Really. I would debate that grinders probably play more (i.e. they mash just as good or better than you because they also probably play more than you.....). You consistantly say "gear is a crutch for bad players". Is your crutch that "you don't have the same gear, so I can't test my button mashing skillz"? So if they have gear AND they are more skilled than you, do you get pwned?

 

 

 

GEAR IS NOT EXCLUSIVE AND THIS IS NOT STARWARS BF I/II PEOPLE........

 

Either go get it or don't complain when you get beat. Yeah..... it sucks to grind @ 50, but I like PvP, so...... I will grind. Get your hammer and sickle out and go grind since in the end, you want PvP to be more commie where it dont matter how much time you put in, you will be at the same level as designated by x.....

 

On a side note, the whole bracket thing was a stupid idea, there is no way a level 10 should hold a candle to me. If they wouldn't in open world PvP, they shouldn't in warzone. If they were going to bracket it, they should have made more separation between levels.

 

 

 

PS: I really don't get why people don't understand RPG's whether mmo, j, single, are ALL grindfests at the core. If you feel dooped by BW when the said it would not be a grindfest, just stop playing.

 

Your post fails.

 

If you think combat is about mashing buttons I volunteer to teach you anytime. If you do not hit buttons in the right order at the right time (just like any fighting game) you will lose. Unless you are playing an OP class, or have a stupid gear advantage.

[L-RANDLE]

Your post fails.

 

If you think combat is about mashing buttons I volunteer to teach you anytime. If you do not hit buttons in the right order at the right time (just like any fighting game) you will lose. Unless you are playing an OP class, or have a stupid gear advantage.

 

How does it fail?

 

 

1. Hitting buttons in the right order. Whether educated or not, WE ALL BUTTON MASH. Semantics? Yes, but my point is that there is not much "skill" to it. If you ever play video games and actually want to compete, a bit of practice (oh no, I actually have to put time into the game to compete in PvP [/sarcasm]) and knowledge goes a long way. By all means educate me make them even more effective at facerolling your(and my) undergeared toon (oh wait....).

 

 

2. You like the challange of going heads-up with other players (10-49) on an even playing field, but now, @ 50, you can't show your leet skills because of your gear. Never were you willing to admit that you might not be as good as the BMs (your leetness is unquestioned [/sarcasm]). You also fail to understand the hypocrasy in saying I like a challange, but if it is too hard, I will fold like the french and ask for things to be given to me for nothing. I find it a bigger challange to take on BM, with my subpar gear. Staying alive is hard as double hockey sticks. That is how I really test my skills, you apparently don't want that even though you want a challenge.

 

3. Claims that BMs are baddies, and gear is the only thing holding your skills back. OH.. where do I begin with this... It is generally agreed upon that gear is pretty easy to obtain. So somehow you are locked out of getting it? NO. So once again I say, go get the gear, play on a equal level, show your leet skillz, be happy...

 

 

Do I have it about right? I think so. Just admit that you are butt-hurt because BW makes lvl 50 grind gear to do PvP. That is a much better complaint. Don't claim your leet skills are handicapped because someone outworked you for gear. Maybe that is their skill, they outwork people to decrease a skill gap. "Try hard people" tend to succeed more than lazy people with "talent". This is a small microcasm of that notion. Think about it...

Edited February 16, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[Qber]

There would be no GEAR problem if the whole pvp gear system was done correctly.

 

Nowadays people need the carrot on a stick to pvp, yes you have the core pvpers who do it for fun, but you got the majority who do it to get something out of it, aside of the fun factor of course.

 

TOR's problem is that you can start equiping the pvp gear at lvl50. While pre 50 you are expertiseless, thus entering the 50bracket can be irritating, frustrating, annoying and so on. It is understandable that being roflstomped by people in PvP gear over and over is not fun, and most people are discouraged pretty fast. That is why we have so much leavers in mid game or even straight at the beginning of the match.

 

I do understand the need of the expertise to separate the PvE gear progression from the PvP gear progression. But it should be done with some sense and not dropped 3 types of pvp gear for lvl 50's exclusively... brainless idea.

It would be much different if lets say at level20 you can pick up your first pvp armor, with some amount of expertise, you can pick up weapons, accessories etc. Sure that few expertise wont be game breaking, but will allow for slow progression, and wont let people be handicapped. Than at 30 and 40 give another set of pvp gear, make it orange with unmoddable expertise etc. And than at 45 or so LET US BUY CENTURION COMMENDATIONS, so we can start SLOWELY gear up for the 50bracket. Now with that game model most players would have expertise, no one would feel handicapped.

 

 

People who dont see the problem, let me picture it for you. When I lvled my alt jug to 50, i got a civil war WZ as my 1st. With no pvp gear etc, most of my team consisted of people like me or those with 2-3 pvp items, all but one poor BM marauder, now the enemy team seemed to be similar to us, with the exception of our BM, the guy alone held middle node, fighting against 3-4 players. Now, this was not much fun for us, cause we held all 3 nodes for most of time, neither it was for him nor for the reps. When I am on my main char, i am a BM with most BM items, and I dont really have much fun going against undergeared people, especialy when I am in some kind of a premade...

 

TOR is a fresh game, with potential. I really hope that the future patches and the ranking will bring up some better pvp options than the WZs. We need 5vs5 and 3vs3 arenas, where people with certain gear are matched against people with similar gear. They could keep WZs as they are, a way to earn valor/commendations, and than put arenas for those with gear. That would exclude the fresh 50's without pvp gear... but there is no other way to make it better and more fun...

[AKfourtyseven]

There would be no GEAR problem if the whole pvp gear system was done correctly.

 

 

This could have all been avoided if Cent gear required rank 40, Champ 50 and BM 60- in addition to their being a starter set purchasable with WZ commendations and a crafted set also.

 

This would have ensured that fresh 50s were all in the same potential position unless they had heavily invested in PvP prior to 50 and it would have made the progression actual progression rather than from 0 expertise to Champ (hero) that we saw previous to the latest change.

 

Unfortunately the horse has bolted and now its damage control.