What does the 1-49 bracket teach us about PVP gear?

[EternalFinality]

They are not going to change it simply because a extremely small group of players want it one specific way

 

The thing is, except for sociopaths, it's not a small group - everyone wants it this way subconsciously. Normal people don't like beating up the weak or taking satisfaction from winning a stacked matchup.

 

In MMOs with flawed PvP design, they just have no choice.

 

They came for the PvE anyways.

Edited February 1, 2012 by EternalFinality

[jamenta]

They are not going to change it simply because a extremely small group of players want it one specific way, and on top of that you only want it changed in one aspect of the game, PVP. It's just not going to happen like that. End of story.

 

Uh why do you think they created a 50s bracket within a few weeks after the game was released?

 

I doubt very much just because "a extremely small group of players" wanted it that way.

 

It was because of the fundamental problem of PvP play imbalance - and players were getting ROFL STOMPED by 50 teams on a regular excruciating basis.

 

Now if they had designed the game where you could only PvP once you hit 50 - then there would be no reason to complain.

 

But they designed the game where players could start PvP'ng at lvl 10 or above. Except it wasn't working because - only a few misanthropic players enjoy being ROFL STOMPLED against 50s. Most players find it not fun at all. And my guess is - SWTOR PvP devs quickly figured that out from the level of complaints they were getting.

 

And there still is a BALANCE problem with their PvP in my opinion. And without some range of BALANCE - it is not fun to PvP. You need balance for good play.

Edited February 1, 2012 by jamenta

[KhalDrogoe]

Or make like the GW's concept, where you unlock gear. Then you can make a pvp only character and use any gear you've unlocked! Since it's only available in pvp instances, it wouldn't affect PvE play one bit! Just allows the people to grind out for their unlocks, and then enjoy the game the way they want to enjoy it! However this doesn't stop people who grind out their own toons and gear from PvE, they can still come and enjoy it as well.

[Felene]

It's not 10% less damage. I do 10% less, and they additonally take 10% less, and the other stats on champion gear are also significantly better than random normal level 50 gear.

 

But that's a bit besides the point. The thing is, warzones are already more based on skill in the 10-49 bracket. They're fairly balanced and fun. Then you hit 50 and suddenly they aren't anymore. Why would I continue to play at 50 under these circumstances? It takes me less than a day to re-roll and get a character to at least somewhere in the teens where I have sprint and can be productive and useful in warzones. It's not like there is a reward for gearing up at 50 anyway other than having fun in pvp again- but I can have that much quicker if I just don't bother with level 50 pvp at all.

 

Okay I see how it is for you.

 

That lv10 who just kill you must be all skill because he have zero Expertise even if he just back-peddle while that lv50 with full BM in lv50 bracket must have no skill because he have 600+ Expertise.

 

Really? Seriously how bias can people get?

Edited February 1, 2012 by Felene

[Delavager]

The thing is, except for sociopaths, it's not a small group - everyone wants it this way subconsciously. Normal people don't like beating up the weak or taking satisfaction from winning a stacked matchup.

 

In MMOs with flawed PvP design, they just have no choice.

 

They came for the PvE anyways.

 

It's realistically a really small group of people.

 

"Normal people" like to play an RPG for progression and gear.

 

Most video games are played by beating up the weak and winning stacked matchups.

[jamenta]

Or make like the GW's concept, where you unlock gear. Then you can make a pvp only character and use any gear you've unlocked! Since it's only available in pvp instances, it wouldn't affect PvE play one bit! Just allows the people to grind out for their unlocks, and then enjoy the game the way they want to enjoy it! However this doesn't stop people who grind out their own toons and gear from PvE, they can still come and enjoy it as well.

 

Or unlock special skill abilities as you gain PvP expertise. So PvP'rs who have accumulated many many hours in the warzones might have a few special moves they can use - (with long cooldowns).

[Felene]

That graph is severly broken due to the diffrent ratio's on the lines.

 

My high school niece have no problem reading it and your typo is irritating.

[BrutikusIV]

This is truly the saddest thread I've read. Easy fix for this is create three seperate lvl 50 brackets. One where you fight without ANY gear boosts: Everyone gets exact dps, exact matching stuns, exact skills, exact base primary stats. Everything will be PERFECTLY balanced where not a single person can have ANY complaint in any shape or form for ALL is exactly EQUAL and skill and latency wins. ( oh someone will complain about laggin skills < can't win them all > ) IF people queque for said game, than that's the game they get. They get Zero rewards other than a PVPL scoreboard.

 

Second WZ's bracket is as ingame atm. You EARN GEAR for efforts applied.

 

Third you drop 1% of your credits each death (cannot enter unless you a minimum 250k credits) + current top gear with each pc having 3 augment slots each as a bonus.

 

There. That should fix it!

[Kelticfury]

So what you are saying is that it is ok for MMOs to charge for broken PvP because FPSs offer an alternative? That is a very strange argument. I guess doctors should be allowed to charge for oil changes since mechanics can do them correctly?

 

Broken PvP is broken PvP regardless of the game it is latched on to.

 

You cannot have a balanced RPG PvP experience because that is a logically impossible result to achieve.

 

first off, SWTOR is not PVP(player vs player) its TVT(team vs team)

Once you get your head around that, you will cry less.

[EternalFinality]

It's realistically a really small group of people.

 

"Normal people" like to play an RPG for progression and gear.

 

Most video games are played by beating up the weak and winning stacked matchups.

 

Yes, in PvE. Not in PvP.

[Kelticfury]

Yes, in PvE. Not in PvP.

 

and its not a small minority. Bioware said its about 50/50 pve'ers/pvp'ers

[Seriasx]

My high school niece have no problem reading it and your typo is irritating.

 

Could you please try to grasp what expertise does before talking about it in a way that makes it seem like you do have a clue what it does.

 

Thank you

[EternalFinality]

and its not a small minority. Bioware said its about 50/50 pve'ers/pvp'ers

 

Yes, and most PvPers also PvE. As I've said before, it's a fatal mistake to base PvP off a PvE system.

[Kelticfury]

Yes, and most PvPers also PvE. As I've said before, it's a fatal mistake to base PvP off a PvE system.

 

I quoted the wrong post /facepalm.

[kckkryptonite]

I prefer the 50's brax tbh. In the 1-49 brax on my alts, I find that a lot of players don't know what they're doing (more so than the 50 brax anyways), queue up at level 11 and spam their basic ranged attack, lack a lot of their abilities possibly causing one side to be imbalanced. I feel like I'm just n00bstomping in the 1-49. Capping a turret, scoring, or planting a bomb in the 50's brax feels so much more rewarding. People die much slower in the 50's brax and are generally more organized. I think that's a good thing. Personally, 1-49 is EZmode for me, so yeah I do enjoy stomping every now and again, but I'd be lying to myself to say that's where the real pvp is.

 

Do the dailies/weeklies, do some HMs to gear up instead of writing long extravagant whine posts. You'll gear up fast enough. You should've saved up 1k/1k + 1 champ bag before 50, you could've had a few pieces right out of the gate. Getting to Valor 60 is a grind, getting champ gear is not - it's really easy; and BM is not much better than champ.

[Delavager]

This thread is stupid.

 

It's an RPG, there is going to be gear. I wouldn't mind a gearless PvP but I am not going to hate for it.

 

It is not imbalanced because anybody can get the top tier gear. Once everybody has said top tier gear, then there will be no more gear issues.

 

The 10-49 bracket (there is no 1-49 bracket) is unfair, and is completely independent of the 50's bracket.

 

A small minority of you have a problem with the gear gap. The more time goes on, the less people have an issue with the gear gap because time = gear in this game. Thus less and less people will not be BM geared and thus not have an issue.

 

Another overwhelming concept is that none of the warzones are deathmatches. They are all objective based. Gear doesn't increase your intelligence.

 

It's not going to change. They won't do away with gear because it's an RPG and that'd be a HUGE change. It's just not going to happen. I don't think BW cares if you re-roll an alt, because you are still playing their game. You'll eventually get to full BM and when you do, it'll be even ground and you will have other issues to cry about (like the fact that end game PvP blows in itself due to the monotony).

[corjoad]

People are leaving the 50's bracket and re-rolling characters so that they can continue to PVP in the 1-49 Brackets.

 

Lets really think about what that means.

 

It means that people would rather do the PVE grind AGAIN then put up with being the equivalent of being grey mobs in WZs who's purpose seems to be to entertain no one but the people who are lucky enough to have more free time or unlucky enough to simply have no life who get to kill you over and over again.

 

It means that PVP is MORE exciting when your adrenaline is pumping because you are in a pitched battle with someone who does the same damage and takes the same damage you do and it really comes down to quick thinking, reflexes and strategy that you EARNED through practice rather then because you have a statistical advantage over your opponent. Where the timing of every shot counts. And obviously that is going to be more exciting then losing simply because your opponent hits far harder and takes far less damage.

 

Gear based "PVP" is not a test of a player vs a player unless people really think that because someone was able to do more repetitive tasks over and over again because they don't have kids, or a job or a life (Or simply are willing to sacrifice those things they should be spending more time on) is somehow something that people can be tested for and be lauded as if they "accomplished" something.

 

The grind olympics? Is that something you want to be remembered for? You were better at wasting more time in your life then someone else so you "win"?

 

If we are going to have brackets, I think we should have a bracket where Expertise is shut off. ESPECIALLY if you are thinking E-sport. And ESPECIALLY if you are going to have a PVP rating system.

 

I have a feeling that bracket would be far more populated.

 

 

Best post I have read on these forums so far.

[astrolite]

Let's use consistent thinking here.

 

Why should there be leveling at all? You only get certain abilities and talent points filled at certain levels. That is clearly unfair. When you enter a warzone, you should be boosted to 50 with all abilities and talent points. This way I can have one of each class, too.

 

Guess what? A level 10 entering a warzone is at more of a disadvantage than a new 50 in the 50 bracket. At least the new 50 has all of his abilities and can spec properly. Even if the brackets were more tiered, there would still be advantages based on class (abilities at different levels) and specific number of talent points able to be spent. The classes would have to be balanced at every single level against each other for it to be fair.

 

At that point, you wouldn't even have a game in the MMO genre. I suggest, for people who think this way, they look for other games to play. Please.

[EternalFinality]

This thread is stupid.

 

It's an RPG, there is going to be gear. I wouldn't mind a gearless PvP but I am not going to hate for it.

 

Dota is an RPG. Yet you don't start a match with a single piece of gear.

[savionen]

I'd rather regrind up to 50 in hope that by the time I hit 50 again they get rid of the ****** RNG on bags. Playing warzones for 50+ hours without a reward is stupid. Edited February 1, 2012 by savionen

[Noctournys]

to add to the "BUT YOUR GEAR BEAT ME MAN! NOT YOU!" argument on the "Please ****" side:

 

Here's a breakdown of the "gear gap" at 50.

 

A fresh 50 can have an orange piece of armor with the following:

A level 51 armoring (purple, rank 23)

A level 50 mod (rank 22)

a level 50 enhancement (rank 22)

 

So, i built an orange chest piece for one of my undergeared companions, just to test this out (Ensign temple still had a green).

 

I put in:

 

Skill Armoring 23 (available for 8 daily comms, which you can get on belsavis pre-50, and now from the last space mission)

Artful Mod 22 (available as a reward from the Heroic 2 on Belsavis/daily)

Battle Enhancement 22 (available as a reward from the Heroic 2 daily on ilum)

 

All of these are also purchaseable on the GTN, and you can actually get more Endurance by switching the Skill Armoring for Patron Armoring, which has more end and slightly less cunning, but the results you get are:

 

74 endurance

94 cunning

27 power

27 crit

39 surge

 

My Champion Field Tech's chestplate is:

86 endurance

87 cunning

44 power

48 accuracy (useless)

46 expertise (about .6%, before you get to the DR point at 8%, then worth a lot less)

 

That orange i modded up is also 6 item levels lower (level 50/rating 124, instead of level 56/rating 136)

 

..but notice the stat gap?

 

Its not very profound.

 

Its...

 

-12 endurance

+7 cunning

-17 power

+39 surge (which is HUGE)

+27 crit

 

That's it. The expertise is a wash here, because you gain as much dps or more than you'd gain from that expertise from the large amount of crit and huge pile of surge.

 

YOU CAN HIT LEVEL 50 AND BUILD EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF GEAR LIKE THAT.

 

That's your "insurmountable gear gap" - less than 5%.

 

And that's if you just use purchaseable level 50 mods/armoring/enhacements. If you do PvE, you can strip extra mods and the like out of gear you arent using and put it in your PvP gear.

[EternalFinality]

48 accuracy (useless)

 

....You're kidding, right?

[yukirshiro]

What 10-49 teaches you about gear is that people want to roflstomp badly geared noobs but they don't want to be roflstomped themselves.

 

The big difference between 10-49 and 50 is not that 10-49 is fair. It is that it takes much less time and effort to become competitive in 10-49 than it does 50.

 

A level 10 in greens is much, much worse compared to an orange and purped 40+ than a new 50 is to a full BM.

 

The difference is the level 10 in greens can become a level 25 in oranges with only a day of effort. While a new 50 has to be farmed for weeks to get to a point where they are competitive.

 

The lesson of 10-49 PVP is not that people dono't want gear imbalance. It's that they don't like a system where it takes weeks to overcome gear imbalance rather than hours.

Edited February 1, 2012 by yukirshiro

[savionen]

What 10-49 teaches you about gear is that people want to roflstomp badly geared noobs but they don't want to be roflstomped themselves.

 

The big difference between 10-49 and 50 is not that 10-49 is fair. It is that it takes much less time and effort to become competitive in 10-49 than it does 50.

 

A level 10 in greens is much, much worse compared to an orange and purped 40+ than a new 50 is to a full BM.

 

The difference is the level 10 in greens can become a level 25 in oranges with only a day of effort. While a new 50 has to be farmed for weeks to get to a point where they are competitive.

 

Gear doesn't really matter in the 10-49 bracket. You can actually PvP naked at level 15 without noticing any real difference. The only thing that really matters is how far you are into your skill tree. So higher level characters do have some advantage. Plus some classes don't get key skills (like Hidden Strike) until higher levels.

 

I was sporting mostly oranges in the late 40s and had lower stats at 45 with Bolster than I did at 20. Infact, I was getting 3600 Shadow Strikes at level 30ish, and at 45 I couldn't even get close to that. Bolster starts to wear off HARD in the 40s.

 

And a fresh geared 50 compared to a battlemaster is like doing 40% more damage, taking 20% less damage, and having 50% more HP....

Edited February 1, 2012 by savionen

[Noctournys]

....You're kidding, right?

 

you understand how to-hit rolls work, right?

 

As a sniper.. the only thing that doesnt have a base 100% accuracy is.. Rifle Shot. You can get plenty of accuracy for PvP on other pieces (ear, implant, weapons)

Edited February 1, 2012 by Noctournys