Sexual violence, slavery, and genocide. Just another day in the Empire?

[Force_Capitalism]

For note: I read and am responding to the whole OP but not much of the following discussion.

 

[sith Warrior Spoilers]

 

 

I have a Sith Warrior and while granted, I am light side, my fiance happily provoked me into shocking Vette at the appropriate moments early in the game. I didn't sense any sexual harassment from it, just outright cruelty.

 

I also took the shock collar off, and was rewarded for it with affection points. I was not chastised for this kindness by any other character in the story to date. So to that end, I think humane treatment of slaves is at the very least rewarded, even if cruel treatment is not appropriately warded if not punished.

 

 

 

With the racism thing, I have noticed that whenever presented with the opportunity 'Aliens' invariably prove every bit as capable as Human and Sith imperials. It is the nature of the Empire that it resents 'impurity' of its ranks, but is consistently rewarded when, incidentally or purposefully allowing aliens opportunities. It is in Darth Revan's teaching, that anything useful should be used, not hated because of its supposed lesser species. However, it is not Darth Revan who rules here, it's the Emperor.

 

Quite frankly, the Emperor is a madman. A pure, hateful, evil, sadistic and sickening monster with only pure power ambition and absolute apathy to the fate of others. The Empire; his empire, is designed to represent him. It is his dominance that shapes the attitudes of everything below him. A constant trickle down effect of his version of the Sith teachings. It is this reason why the Empire is over the top. Almost a caricature of Nazi Germany with a more extensive caste system (inb4 Godwin). Other powerful, influential Sith would have radically different attitudes in the Sith. If they were the power of the time, then they would be the one most respected as destructive force, and emulated by Sith and subsequently the Empire. Jadus, for example, would rule an almost Romanian Fascist Empire, that is, religious in nature, where god is fear itself. This means, in theory, future story advances in SWTOR will inevitably change the Empires flavour.

 

In sum, I may well be wrong, but think the writers have brought out the Empire for what it is. I think players are supposed to identify how wrong things are in it, to be outraged. It is the players discretion, even as a dark side player, to choose their own behaviour. While sometimes you simply must do the absolute evil thing, or the absolute good, there are endless opportunities to push for changes here and there, to counter the Emperor's influence, to bring a sense of honour, respect or dignity to the weaker members of the Empire.

 

Or, ultimately, if you want to truly feel like you are breaking the empire and its evils apart, don't join them, play Republic.

[Ctwentysix]

 

Extreme goo and extreme bad...

 

I get it, its over the top... but that is what a villain is, over the top.

 

I agree and if you dont like it try mixing light and dark options so you are not disgusted by one

[Zilrota]

Hello all,

 

You may have noticed that we have removed a significant number of posts from this thread and we would like to take this time to remind everyone of the rules of conduct in the forums.

 

1. 
    
   
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5. If someone violates the Rules of Conduct, please flag it instead of replying to it.
    
   
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Please ensure your posts remain constructive, on topic and respectful.

 

Thank you.

[DrumDeity]

Seriously: this is Star Wars, not Jerseylicious. Either play a Light Side character or get off TOR. Oh sorry for sounding like a jerk. But just don't trash Bioware. And please don't make this everybody else's issues. There are 7 more classes to play.

[DrumDeity]

Again, I'm sorry. I'm just annoyed that everyone is getting angry over things like same-sex relationships or over the story rather than issues in gameplay. Sorry.

[sirdregar]

Please stop trying to inject your real world into my VIDEOGAME. If I really want to see something horrible I will just turn on the news

[Weezyfb]

>Chooses to play bad guys.

>Is upset when he finds out the bad guys are bad.

mfw

 

quoted for the truth

 

either play LS, or go republic

 

or turn of the game

 

also tc, this is fiction, your real life arguments for gender equality are pointless.

 

THIS IS FICTION

Edited February 5, 2012 by Weezyfb

[Weezyfb]

For note: I read and am responding to the whole OP but not much of the following discussion.

 

[sith Warrior Spoilers]

 

 

I have a Sith Warrior and while granted, I am light side, my fiance happily provoked me into shocking Vette at the appropriate moments early in the game. I didn't sense any sexual harassment from it, just outright cruelty.

 

I also took the shock collar off, and was rewarded for it with affection points. I was not chastised for this kindness by any other character in the story to date. So to that end, I think humane treatment of slaves is at the very least rewarded, even if cruel treatment is not appropriately warded if not punished.

 

 

 

With the racism thing, I have noticed that whenever presented with the opportunity 'Aliens' invariably prove every bit as capable as Human and Sith imperials. It is the nature of the Empire that it resents 'impurity' of its ranks, but is consistently rewarded when, incidentally or purposefully allowing aliens opportunities. It is in Darth Revan's teaching, that anything useful should be used, not hated because of its supposed lesser species. However, it is not Darth Revan who rules here, it's the Emperor.

 

Quite frankly, the Emperor is a madman. A pure, hateful, evil, sadistic and sickening monster with only pure power ambition and absolute apathy to the fate of others. The Empire; his empire, is designed to represent him. It is his dominance that shapes the attitudes of everything below him. A constant trickle down effect of his version of the Sith teachings. It is this reason why the Empire is over the top. Almost a caricature of Nazi Germany with a more extensive caste system (inb4 Godwin). Other powerful, influential Sith would have radically different attitudes in the Sith. If they were the power of the time, then they would be the one most respected as destructive force, and emulated by Sith and subsequently the Empire. Jadus, for example, would rule an almost Romanian Fascist Empire, that is, religious in nature, where god is fear itself. This means, in theory, future story advances in SWTOR will inevitably change the Empires flavour.

 

In sum, I may well be wrong, but think the writers have brought out the Empire for what it is. I think players are supposed to identify how wrong things are in it, to be outraged. It is the players discretion, even as a dark side player, to choose their own behaviour. While sometimes you simply must do the absolute evil thing, or the absolute good, there are endless opportunities to push for changes here and there, to counter the Emperor's influence, to bring a sense of honour, respect or dignity to the weaker members of the Empire.

 

Or, ultimately, if you want to truly feel like you are breaking the empire and its evils apart, don't join them, play Republic.

The emperor is not mad. He wants to rule the galaxy and live forever.

 

He is simply doing what it takes to reach that goal. He may be "evil" but he is certainly sane man who is willing to do whatever it takes

[Force_Capitalism]

The emperor is not mad. He wants to rule the galaxy and live forever.

 

He is simply doing what it takes to reach that goal. He may be "evil" but he is certainly sane man who is willing to do whatever it takes

 

[Jedi Knight Spoilers]

 

 

That's not the impression I got from him when I tried to kidnap him on the JK story.

 

Because his goal is to sacrifice all or most of life in the known universe to improve his own power. That is not a sane or rational decision. It defies what humans might loosely call rationality or human nature in so many different ways.

 

[LordKermit]

I am an art major who has worked in the Advertising/Graphic Design industry as an Art Director for one of the largest advertising firms in the United States (for the past 25 years) ... video games are not art and will never be deemed "art." They're entertainment.

 

Funny stuff so i guess that means that the following is not art since it makes up video game design. Writing, Drawing, Music, designing 3d environments (Like entire fictional planets), Movies (CGI). Video games are a form of art just like all the other things that encompass a games creation. Some of the most well know creations are video game characters and games. If this wasn't enough

 

Art

Noun:

1.The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture

2.Works produced by such skill and imagination

 

 

Applys to both categories, so yeah video games are art!

[Spotlore]

Someone lock this thread please. Or just delete it. I just can't believe the OP. I just can't believe it.

 

The Story in this game is fine, leave it how it is. Good God I won't even argue with the OP on this, just get them out of here.

[Valgranth]

Evil people do evil things. The sexual violence isn't, in any way, presented as something that the traditionally "good" characters endorse or support. The Sith are the "bad guys", and being a "bad guy" means doing "bad things". Slavery and abuse are one of the worst things in the world, and lead to probably the most destructive emotions, the deepest hatred.

[bleedorange]

It does a little bit, like in a conversation my inq had with Ashara, and as a ls sith warrior. But no, never anywhere does anyone come out and say "this kind of behavior is not sustainable", at least not anywhere that I've encountered.

 

I wish that it would, but maybe I'm asking a little too much out of something that is supposed to be simple, I dunno.

 

But it does in one of the quests in that big temple (forget the name) on Dromund Kasss. There's a sith who was into LS teachings and he basically says just that.

[AutumnBard]

I don't have the time to read through the replies, but I wanted to comment on the original post.

 

I must say Shampoo I am in full agreement with your points about the horrific way serious issues are portrayed. I have only played Republic quest lines yet even in these interactions the degradation, cruelty, thoughtlessness, and lack of depth have astounded me. The casual acceptance of genocide, misogyny, killing, and treating these ways of interacting as at all normal or tolerable is disheartening. I really did expect much better from BioWare, and I cannot fathom why there is this horrendous lack of depth and sub-text. I know MMOs are different than single player games but this is really bad.

 

I'm very glad you posted what you did. It is encouraging to see there are other people as disturbed by the lack of... consciousness in the writing.

 

And I cannot fathom at all why this game is rated teen. This should definitely have a "mature" rating, though ironically, maturity is one of many facets it lacks.

 

There is, of course, much more to say but I've run out of time .

 

Thank you for posting your post Shampoo.

[tehjai]

I don't have the time to read through the replies, but I wanted to comment on the original post.

 

I must say Shampoo I am in full agreement with your points about the horrific way serious issues are portrayed. I have only played Republic quest lines yet even in these interactions the degradation, cruelty, thoughtlessness, and lack of depth have astounded me. The casual acceptance of genocide, misogyny, killing, and treating these ways of interacting as at all normal or tolerable is disheartening. I really did expect much better from BioWare, and I cannot fathom why there is this horrendous lack of depth and sub-text. I know MMOs are different than single player games but this is really bad.

 

I'm very glad you posted what you did. It is encouraging to see there are other people as disturbed by the lack of... consciousness in the writing.

And I cannot fathom at all why this game is rated teen. This should definitely have a "mature" rating, though ironically, maturity is one of many facets it lacks.

 

There is, of course, much more to say but I've run out of time .

 

Thank you for posting your post Shampoo.

 

Please explain how, in a setting where genocide, misogyny and killing are acceptable ways to behave -- this universe is gritty and seedy, on both sides -- you would like BioWare to give 'depth' and 'subtext' to these things? The people agreeing with the OP apparently see fit to throw criticism but are either outright ignoring or can't think of ways to do this? Bear in mind that the GFFA is not the real world.

 

In the spirit of discussion, I'd really like an answer from you or Shampoo about the following:

 

How do you want depth and subtext to these horrific actions?

Or, are you just uncomfortable with a work of fiction treating them casually?

Can you not understand that the casual treatment comes about because it fits the universe?

Do you believe that views presented in a work of fiction are automatically the real-world views of the fiction's creator(s)?

 

 

To your second point: We've already discussed at length (oh wait, you didn't bother to read the replies, but the discussion is there!) about Vette's (physically, but not sexually abusive) treatment, and how the game does not allow you to progress with her story until you remove the symbol of her as a slave; we've already discussed that a "Teen" rating doesn't mean the game is for teens -- rather, given its subject matter, that's the lowest age demographic who would be able to handle the matter contained within; we've already discussed the problems about the OP's calling to light the (mis)treatment of a woman by a man while simultaneously ignoring the (mis)treatment of a man by a woman.

 

All of these things have been chewed over and spit out in this thread. I highly encourage you to read the replies. These things are in the game for specific, story-based reasons, and those have been analyzed and discussed at length.

 

If the game makes you uncomfortable because it lacks social justice commentary, it is your prerogative not to play it; but it's also BioWare's prerogative to let the universe, warts and all, stand on its own and let players decide to what end they are (or aren't) going to participate in the atrocities contained within.

 

Creative endeavours are designed to challenge us; BioWare need not pander to the lowest common denominator and take a hand-holding approach and say "this is bad in real life, mmkay?" An intelligent consumer of the media should know this, and an intelligent consumer of the media should not conflate feeling uncomfortable about a product's content with the overall quality of the product.

[eulort]

if you dont like it dont play the game that simple

[Kozor]

HAHAHAHA OH how i've been waiting for this!

 

FEMINISTS VS BIODRONES: THE BATTLE OF AGES

 

 

 

Please keep posting guys! This is the most entertaining thread on the board currently!

[Jamadhr]

I'm going to toss in my opinion, listen or not. ('Listen' being figurative, and not a literalism)

 

I will state this from the onset.

I watched the Star Wars movies, so I am familiar with the storyline and details, however, my passion is in Star Trek and should give the reader a sense of my personality. (Assuming you realize the meaning of Star Trek)

 

I am a huge fan of roleplay and storyline gaming, henceforth the reason I have stuck with Bioware because the stories are well-written and the depth of thought is pretty well done, in my opinion. I have experienced Mass Effect 1 and 2, Dragon Age 1 and 2, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Icewind Dale 1 and 2, Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2. From them I have found Bioware has a consistent base of enabling the player character to make decisions due to their characters created persona, whether it be female or male. Thank you for that, Bioware.

 

I purchased the CE and received it, installed and all.

When I began the character creation process, I watched, and listened, to the scene-setter movies.

 

Watching the Jedi version gave me a sense of hopeful motivation, justice, and a feeling of determined resolve against an 'insurmountable evil' that was present and threatening to take over the galaxy.

 

Watching the Sith version, I was immediately overcome with a sense of dread, and a feeling that the Sith were incredibly malicious, a horrific legion that needed eradicated with extreme prejudice from every corner of the galaxy.

 

My overwhelming sense of good and an unerring sense to help others that I always try to personally exude actually repulsed me from wanting to make a Sith, ever.

 

This was intended, by the story crafters, and it was superbly pulled off.

 

For awhile that Sith scene-setter stayed with me until I finally decided to try one, a Bounty Huntress to start off with, someone I could foresee-ably choose her own destiny with since I was not a 'horrific' Sith, and worked for the Empire on my own terms.

 

I created other classes of both the male and female gender because I have heard the romance/flirt/naughty humour options are quite limited for females, thus I decided to hold off on serious female romance progression until the Same Sex Romance (SSR) mod patch is released, and see what the males had in store for them.

 

Moving through the Sith Warrior, Inquisitor, Bounty Hunter, and a small portion of the Agent, I found that the 'horrific' Sith are not as horrible or sickening as the scene-setter setup. Infact, one can be a 'light-sided' Sith. Additionally, one can also choose options in dialogue that is not masochistic, vile, or insidious. Using my personality and generally 'well thought-of by others' in my work and social circles, intellect as a baseline, I found so far that there are nuggets and jewels of light within the possible dialogue options.

 

Sure, my Sith Twi'lik, was given the chance to be an esteemed Inquisitor, the considered 'truly gifted' of the Sith, when she was found to have force sensitivity. (by Sith Law one is required if found to be sensitive to be shipped to Korriban for Sith training')

 

Yes, she had to endure an frustrated male Overseer whom knew his own viability in the Sith Academy was on a major decline and deciding to lash out at me for being an alien (Twi'lik), a prior slave (he still called me slave at every turn to demean and subjugate me), a non pureblood Sith (to which he pitted me against in the academy as a rival), and a woman to top it off (males seem the favoured gender). Through such adversity, she grew in strength, her 'hatred' for the Overseer and his pet pureblood, taunting fueled her drive to excel. I wont spoil all the juicy details, which in my opinion made this part of the story a really interesting start, but as I said, eventhough the scene-setter painted me as a horrific monster, I could choose to be a good person in a society confused with the path of attaining power and still keep my ethics.

 

I have found that through understanding both of the codes, Sith and Jedi, that they are a contradiction onto themselves. The Sith at taught that the emotions hate and anger fuel ones path to becoming 'free' in the Force, while the Jedi believe that Passion is the enemy and far such things 'leading to the Dark Side'.

 

When in truth, there is nothing in the Sith code that requires a Sith to hate or use anger as fuel, only Passion. This 'Passion' is twisted by the Emperor to fuel his fascist propaganda. A Sith need only use their 'Passion' for good, thus most probably not incurring the physical deformity, internal degradation of their physiology, and self-loathing that inevitably occurs from negative Force influence.

 

Alternatively, the poor Jedi are shackled by their own doctrinal code to a life of celibacy and devoid of love. Because they fear 'Passion', instead of acknowledging 'Fear' as the enemy, they weaken their own core base from its own potential. Due to this lack of self-reflective intuition they remain weaker than the Sith, in the Force.

 

I found the stories so far in this game to be very rewarding and deep, if you open yourself up to its bounty. Space bar through it if you will, but you are truly missing out on a legacy of story crafting that has endured though the years from Bioware.

 

Thank you for your attention and your interest!

[Raazmir]

Just want to point this out.

 

The players are the ones sexualizing the shock collar thing, not the writing. In fact you don't get to have an intimate relationship with the companion at all if you don't take the collar off of her, eventually all she'll do is say "I don't want to talk to you anymore unless you take this thing off me."

 

 

 

I don't blame the OP though. A LOT of the player commentary on jaesa and Vette presents an undeniably skeevy, creepy face of the community.

[Jamadhr]

Just want to point this out.

 

The players are the ones sexualizing the shock collar thing, not the writing. In fact you don't get to have an intimate relationship with the companion at all if you don't take the collar off of her, eventually all she'll do is say "I don't want to talk to you anymore unless you take this thing off me."

 

 

 

I don't blame the OP though. A LOT of the player commentary on jaesa and Vette presents an undeniably skeevy, creepy face of the community.

 

I agree. The shock collar is not a sexual gratification option intended by Bioware, that is wholly the perceived influence of a sexually BDSM motivated player base, those with an improper sense of entitlement and superiority, or those with a overinflated sense of inhumane abuse.

 

Vette is a 'slave', yet she is treated better than any slave you will ever know, regardless of the shock collar's use. The shock collar is a means of, in the Sith Empire, as a tool for attitude realignment, nothing more.

[Nozybidaj]

All I'll say is, at least you have an option (whether to act in the way the OP detailed or not). There are plenty of other content avenues people want to see that should be available and there is simply no options, no choice, even present in the game.

[Raazmir]

That said, I found the shock collar thing hilarious...right up until I started running into the people who had to take it up to 11 and turn it into a creepy psychosexual power tool, honestly the community reaction to stuff like this does more to make me want to cancel my account and scrub four or five layers of skin off in the shower.

[TLiciousX]

I do take the OP post seriously, but I must adopt the stand that she's missing the point (as many posters have).

 

Sorry girl, but:

 

You're entering a male world here. The original Star Wars universe is built and predicated upon the fantasies of an earlier age. Flash Gordon, Conan the Barbarian, John Carter of Mars. SAVE THE PRINCESS! This is Star Wars, it's a ridiculous fantasy story, it always has been and always will be, and if lost princes, twisted dark lords and half-naked slave girls aren't your cup of tea then I suggest you go elsewhere for your entertainment.

 

As far as moral choices go, nobody is putting a gun to your head. Don't like your Companion, simply dismiss him/her and never talk to them again. It really is that easy.

 

Would you like a MMORPG that suits your personal style better, something that makes you more comfortable as a woman? Nothing would make me happier than to see you go out and make one. Have fun with that.

 

Last note. Regarding ESRB and whatever they call it in Europe, I have this to say and this only:

 

PARENTS GET YOUR *********** CHILDREN OFF OF MY INTERNET.

 

Nuff sed

 

- t

[Urivial]

Now now, I am fully of the opinion that it's the internet's job to teach us children. Our parents are only around to feed, clothe, and shelter us.

[owenthorn]

you already fail in your argument, when you ONLY point out ONE side as bad, both are equal, both are corrupt, both fail to do anything, about anything, affecting anyone in the game, neither side cares

 

and even more fail is to point out the teen rating..do you ever watch TV? or the internet, go get on your high horse somewhere else