Technical community discussion : Nerfing Tracer Missle

[Skodan]

just allow other skills to add a heat signature

[Iserath]

people that are calling for a TM nerf have never played at level 50.. you go to cast it.. BOOM 4 seconds of nothing besides you auto attack... fine i could get in melee range to use rocket punch and get owned cause im not a MELEE CLASS.. in pvp if i begin to cast anything these days its chain interrupt/silences and stuns and im dead in 5-10 seconds from any loljedi who crys about my super hard hitting ability... if the damage is toned down make it instant cast.. play the class before crying about it being op. Im in full pvp gear and can get SHUT DOWN by anyone with an interrupt and a cc... cause the one cc i have that isnt a CAST is on a one min cd....

[IronFirewind]

It's more to do with that the game engine allows ranged attackers to have a very large advantage given that Knockbacks don't fill up resolve and that auto face means that LoSing an ability in group v group is nearly impossible.

 

Add in that not all classes have a ranged interrupt and that only Watchman/Anni Sents/Maras can keep an ability completely locked down (always at the expense of burning multiple CDs and only if they are all up) but this can only be done in melee range.

 

I'll quote a post I made in the other thread:

 

Tracer/Grav is fine in 1v1[/ui but I laugh at anyone who thinks that 1v1 is worth anything in a game balanced around group v group combat. This is very important here as this game does not cater to the e-peens of Solo Heroes who expect to be carried by a bunch of randoms like in CoD or Halo. It rewards team players (Like PvP in a game should).

 

The easiest way to fix Tracer/Grav would be to do one or any combination of the below:

 

1) Stick a minimum range on ranged abilities so that ranged classes are no longer really MDPS and are actually punished for letting a melee class get to them in group vs group.

 

2) Get rid of auto-face so it's actually possible to LoS an RDPS in group v group combat. Nine times out of ten you're going to be pretty much forced to eat 3 Tracer Missiles/Grav Rounds plus the finishers at melee range if you aren't a Watchman Spec Sentinel (or whatever the Marauder mirror is), since you have to leave combat, putting you in danger of being maimed by the entire opposing team to find something to LoS with and by that time you're dead in group vs group. All the other MDPS classes are pretty much out of luck as soon as the interrupt is on CD against an RDPS class.

 

3) Make knockbacks fill up the Resolve gauge. It will stop of the the stupid "[insert melee class here that really doesn't need a buff like Scoundrel or Sentinel] are underpowered!" topics too. Again knockback no filling resolve isn't bad at all if you happen to be a Jedi Knight or Sith Warrior but all the other MDPS classes are really screwed over by KBs not giving resolve.

 

4) Take away the insane lag compensation that allows ranged attacks with a projectile element to follow you around corners and out of range. This is most noticeable when fighting a Jedi Consular or a Mercenary. Ranged attacks should not follow you around corners and 60m away because the other guy has high ping and it's silly to punish people with low ping for that. (It's basically like high ping Snipers in TF2 or the lag compensation in general in Halo or MW3)

Edited February 15, 2012 by IronFirewind

[Madu]

I'm almost full BM mercenary with arsenal spec (i'm not using any pve items although my friends advised me to for the 15% crit). I'm valor rank 67 on bloodworthy server (most was done in WZ i only use ilum to do my daily after i'm back in WZ's)

 

From what i have noticed so far tracer has no OP efect except the fact is easy to use. The max dmg i did with tracer was 3-3.2 k crit damage on a poorly dressed player. On a champion geared player it never gose above 2k but very rarely. When i play vs premades i usualy hitthem for 1.5-1.7k rarely above 2k.

 

Tha fact is Sorcs are overpoerd as hell, and if you look at the posts in here , most of them, that complain, are undergeared sorcs that are hit hard by champ/bm mercs (if u just reached lvl 50 ur sorc/sage will suck bad untill u gear it up). so my conlcusion is NERF SORCS!

[JoeGotBored]

It's more to do with that the game engine allows ranged attackers to have a very large advantage given that Knockbacks don't fill up resolve and that auto face means that LoSing an ability in group v group is nearly impossible.

 

Add in that not all classes have a ranged interrupt and that only Watchman/Anni Sents/Maras can keep an ability completely locked down (always at the expense of burning multiple CDs and only if they are all up) but this can only be done in melee range.

 

I'll quote a post I made in the other thread:

 

Range in this game is an illusion, with so many classes having gap closers. They either jump to you, run to you/away from you, or they pull you to them, or they can stealth to you, or some classes can do both multiple of those things.

 

Sents and Marauders are not the only classes that can keep TM from going off. Every class has abilities that will interupt, knock back, or allow to get out of range/los. The warzones provide plenty of cover to duck behind.

 

for example of another class, Sorcerer/Sage can do a pretty good job of keeping you locked up. They have a stun, a cc, and an interrupt, their channeled lightning/pebbles does more damage than TM, plus slows so you cannot escape.

[Qber]

Lets be honest, nerfing the damage of tracer missile/grav round would simply kill one of the specs. Thats pretty bad idea.

 

 

Only quite "ok" solution I see to deal with the tracer/grav spammers is to make the skill go weaker and weaker the longer its being used one after another. To prevent it from being spammed, what I am trying to say is not a "1st hit hard, second hit for less", but lets say after 5 tracers (optimal if you didnt spec to get the debuff faster) the skill should start doing less and less dmg and that should affect pvp only, unless you use some other skills inbetween etc. This would not hit players who actually know what they are doing, but the brainless people who tend to spam one skill through whole WZ, eventually they add the stun if someone gets close and than proceed to do tracer/grav.

[sithFTW]

PARTY TIME!!!!!!!

 

 

[Kanthric]

It's more to do with that the game engine allows ranged attackers to have a very large advantage given that Knockbacks don't fill up resolve and that auto face means that LoSing an ability in group v group is nearly impossible.

 

I'll quote a post I made in the other thread:

 

Jeez...I take it you've never played Arsenal spec at max level?

 

1) I'm happy with minimum range, provided I get something that isn't laughable that I can use when people close with me. Melee are already ludicrously dangerous to my spec - once a melee class closes, 8 times out of 10 its game over unless I've had the drop on him before he started thinking about closing. Not being able to return fire at all would remove that 2 in 10 chance I have to turn things round - that would tip the scales way too far in favour of MDPS classes.

 

2) Fine. Provided that your character also has to be facing dead on to us when you're in melee range, darting around to try to disrupt autotarget / mouseturning (and sometimes succeeding, I might add).

 

In terms of being forced to eat 3 tracer missiles, that's 4.5 seconds - easily enough to close with us, particularly since all melee classes have some method of closing with us / pulling us which will also disrupt one of the tracer shots. Use that along with an interrupt if necessary and you've closed for no damage (from us, at least)

 

3) I'm happy with all knockbacks giving resolve, provided that they act as interrupts even when resolve is full. Otherwise, the Merc spec really would need its own actual interrupt that isn't based on CC.

 

4) FYI, the requirement for a ranged attack to hit is that the target is in range and LOS when starting the attack, and (broadly) in range and LOS when the attack finishes. Its a bit more forgiving after you've started casting, from experience.

 

Once its cast, it'll follow you wherever you go. So you need to start breaking LOS or range while we're casting, or before we cast, not trying to dodge at the last second. Ping / lag spikes work both ways, too. I've had points where targets mysteriously become untargetable, where melee classes have magically leaped out of range mid-cast, etc.

[CaptainInsano]

Tracer Missle doesn't need a nerf. No idea why people like to complain about it. Ranged classes have go to casts they use as their main DPS. Is it because it's a missle instead of a fireball or something that people have a problem with it? It's fine.

[Swaggz]

I'm almost full BM mercenary with arsenal spec (i'm not using any pve items although my friends advised me to for the 15% crit). I'm valor rank 67 on bloodworthy server (most was done in WZ i only use ilum to do my daily after i'm back in WZ's)

 

From what i have noticed so far tracer has no OP efect except the fact is easy to use. The max dmg i did with tracer was 3-3.2 k crit damage on a poorly dressed player. On a champion geared player it never gose above 2k but very rarely. When i play vs premades i usualy hitthem for 1.5-1.7k rarely above 2k.

 

^^^this

 

I play a lvl 50 merc with full champ, minus the 2 piece raid bonus gear (for the 15% crit). When going against equally geared or better players I only hit for about 1.6k non crits (2.5k crits). If I were to just spam TM I would get owned and also get laughed at. I only use TM to set up my other abilities (railshot, Heatseekers, Unload) and when everything else is on CD. Hell, I even use Fusion Missile, Explosive Dart, and DfA on a regular basis with Missile Blast (great for that low health snipe kill) and Flamethrower on a case by case basis. When someone gets up close I have to switch to other abilities cause if I were to just stand there spamming TM while a melee beats on me, I might as well get up and go AFK cause the results will be the same...the melee will get himself an easy kill.

 

It's not going to be my TM that kills you. It's going to be everything else that TM sets up for me.

[Patrickgf]

That's the thing tho. No one just uses TM. You can never win by just spamming TM. So what you just said makes no sense what so ever.

 

This ^

 

here is a previous post of mine

 

50 Arsenal Merc

 

I love how everyone says we mash 1 button the whole game... I use 25-30 skill slots per match of pvp. If you think it takes no skill go play one and start dueling some good sorc / melee players you'll get pwned if u don't have a handle on every single one of your abilities. The tree is built around TM so obviously it gets used most frequently to set up buffs / debuffs. And most of the time your not dying from a TM but a heatseeker, railshot, or unload. Our most powerful asset is also our greatest weakness (DPS may be high... but only when stationary.)

 

The tree is fine please don't fuxwitit. If u can't beat a tracer spammer ur awful or undergeared.

[AAmedeo]

Everyone knows tracers need to be dialed back. Anyone who says otherwise simply doesn't want to lose an advantage.

 

There should never be a single skill that you can spam and win with.

 

Tracer Missile sucks. The only reason it is spammed is that the only way to make a mercs other skills not suck is to use Tracer Missile.

[Cegenaus]

necro?

[KingFink]

Tracer Missile sucks. The only reason it is spammed is that the only way to make a mercs other skills not suck is to use Tracer Missile.

 

 

Here, let me give you an example of how this thread is supposed to work:

 

 

Server:Prophecy of the Five

Bounty Hunter Level:46

PVP Level:Hah. Only 32.

 

I've been PVPing from time to time on my Mercenary, and I will be the first to admit that Tracer Missile is a move that the Arsenal tree revolves around, as has been pointed out many times already.

 

My Main is a Sith Juggernaut, at level 50. I enjoy the perspective here, as I often play AS a Tracer Missile firing Merc, and I often play AGAINST the same. I can say that when a player simply spams Tracer Missile it is not a viable tactic. Disruption abilities, knock backs and simply making the Mercenary in question take more damage than he wants to stand there and take make Tracer Missile spamming far from optimal in all situations.

 

That does not stop the Tracer Missile hot key lovers from standing there and casting. I can say with much certainty that when they stand and spam, they die. I've done it, and I've killed them.

 

When a Mercenary uses his other abilities, manages his heat and keeps distance with his knockbacks he is a force to be reckoned with, as it should be.

 

I do notice that someone mentioned free casting. This is the most potent form of Tracer Missile spam, and I agree that it seems far over powered. The problem is not that it can be free casted from the sidelines quickly and efficiently, it is that no one has gone to stop it. Let a Sorc free cast lightning and you'll be in just as much trouble.

 

In the end if Tracer Missile is nerfed, I won't be one to cry about it. I will still be able to kill players, Achieve high damage output in PVE and PVP, and the world will keep spinning.

[VoidJustice]

Leave it as is with one change.

If you get force kicked while channeling it, it lands at

your feet and you explode.

 

leap, kick, bye!

Edited February 28, 2012 by VoidJustice

[Gomiiie]

fatman

50 merc

pyro/arsenal

 

ok here is my two cents in this matter ,well for one yes spamming TM is annoying so i switch btw specs but in all honesty. TM is the only real thing that BH's have ,we have crap for mobility our dmg sucks without it and we dont have anough cc and our energy shield is crap. so yes TM is the best us mercs have and even then you go into any wz on my server ,its like you start to cast TM next thing you know its interuppted then it gets even better you get stun locked by god knows how many . And since there is no cooldown or anything on how many times you can get stunned its constant .So no i dont think TM should be nerfed at all other then changing its look on casting and other then that i think mercs need a boost to alot of there skills or revamp there trees or something because you do anything to nerf them they become totaly worthless.

[Mongrul]

I started to reply in the other thread but the post got pretty long and with so many trash, whining and junk filler posts polluting the thread I thought it would be best to make a new one with more stringent rules.

 

Do not fill this thread with trash, /signed posts or general whining about TM spam. If you post in here it needs to be relevant and a constructive contribution to the discussion.

 

I will keep this post updated with information as much as I can and try to highlight the major points.

 

In your post include this information so we have an idea of how informed you about the gameplay aspects:

 

Server:

Bounty Hunter Level: (Put your class name here if you are not a BH and still feel you have something constructive to add)

PvP Level:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Main points I'm starting this thread with - feel free to suggest others:

 

What are non-Merc players saying about Tracer Missile?

Claim: TM is spammed in PvP matches. (remains fairly valid)

Claim: TM is all that the Merc needs to be effective while other classes need many skills to merely survive. (baseless - see quoted posts)

Claim: TM is overpowered (baseless - see quoted posts)

 

What are Merc players saying about Tracer Missile?

Unavoidable use - The Arsenal skill tree is built around Tracer Missile

 

Frequency of use - Unload has a chance to be instantly cooled down, Rail shot is available to targets with Heat Sig's, HSM recieves damage bonus per each Heat Sig on target. Using TM incessantly has rewards and is needed to be stacked on each target you attack for good results. Thus 'spamming'.

 

Channeling animation -

--Con: Many players don't the bending over - mostly an 'issue' due to how often you have to use the skill and watch it.

--Pro: It does make it obvious that the target is being tagged with Heat Sig's in PvP, so the smoke is good.

 

 

What are the primary paths to adjust the class that will address these concerns, maintain fun-factor and maintain class balance?

Path 1 - Reviewing the Arsenal tree as a whole and making the skills less contingent on the repeated use of TM and application of Heat Sig's.

Path 2 - Use a different skill to apply Heat Sig.

Path 3 - Leave it alone - see posts primarily from Theballzz, feeling that the difficulty of play when under pressure and requiring mobility is acceptable and fun.

 

General concerns

The concern is not that the class is overpowered or that Tracer Missile is the one button wonder to kill-all but more along the lines of gameplay quality and appeal in both PvP and PvE.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

you are not on the development team. discussing this with you is pointless. you dont want any whining or trash in this thread. guess what you are whining and your post is whining trash. why cant you just accept the game how it is and play. why do you have try and change it to your liking.

 

WHY DO YOU HAVE TO TRY AND CHANGE THIS GAME TO YOUR LIKING.

 

YOU ARE NOT ON THE DEV TEAM.

 

GO MAKE YOUR OWN GAME

 

WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE

[me_unknown]

It's more to do with that the game engine allows ranged attackers to have a very large advantage given that Knockbacks don't fill up resolve and that auto face means that LoSing an ability in group v group is nearly impossible.

 

Add in that not all classes have a ranged interrupt and that only Watchman/Anni Sents/Maras can keep an ability completely locked down (always at the expense of burning multiple CDs and only if they are all up) but this can only be done in melee range.

 

I'll quote a post I made in the other thread:

 

this is so full of wrong stuff.

 

just a few:

knockback fills resovle bar

watchmann sents are not the only one with a 6s interrupt of 4s.

 

but your conclusion fails even without these wrong informations considering that gap closers we have in the game.

 

i never observed tracer missles being overpowered. there are several ways for the classes to fight against.

 

@above poster: wow, i really don't understand how one could react so infantile like that to the post you are citing.

Edited February 29, 2012 by me_unknown

[lijahrobinson]

Atog - Pyrotech Mercenary

Level 50 - Valor 68

Sword of Ajunta Pall Server

 

I think that tracer missile is fine. I leveled up and started pvp'ing as an arsenal spec but have made the switch to pyro because it fits more inline with the style of play that i like to have. I play against Arsenal builds all the time. The only people i see that truly spam tracer are the hybrids as it is their best damage dealer. The true arsenals should only be casting it a few times to get the debuff to full and then to try to get unload off cooldown. Unload is the big damage dealer. I think the problem is that most people don't pay attention to the arsenal spec until its too late. If you get hit by a missile you should be getting out or range or getting a line of sight blocker. Their design is to be a turret and i am fine with that. Not being able to move in pvp to use your major attacks is a fair price to pay for what the build brings. The missile's damage is on par with other similar abilities from other Adv classes.

 

If i see an enemy Arsenal build, i know who i am attacking and harassing all game. Pay attention to your surroundings, use line of sight, and switch up your play style if you need to and you will find that they go from being house to being an annoyance real quick.

Edited February 29, 2012 by lijahrobinson

[Gorlough]

The only real problem people have with TM is a psycologial one. Noone would ever care about it, if it was the same animation as fusion missile or explosive dart.

Well, now it hasn't got this smooth animations. It's very iconic and its loud and smoky - and it SCARES the hell out of some people.

First thing people notice about TMs is, that something explodes at their feet with a loud burst and lots of smoke. Now this happens twice or more often. They still are scared or annoyed the least.

When I fire of my unload knocking of half their health, they're not as scared or annoyed as when TM hits them.

 

If you want to get the QQ crew quiet, you simply need to change to animation (and no I wouldn't like that at all).

[RyuKazuha]

Kenzo Arsenal Mercenary

Level 50

Vanjervalis Chain

 

I don't think tracer is op, yet I do think it needs to be changed. Spamming TM is not a viable tactic to dps, neither in PvE nor in PvP and whoever says that, is either lying or relies on false information.

 

Why not op:

 

The problem is perception. TM has huge animation with sound and smoke and bang in all directions. Against that, all our really hard hitting abillities are less spectacular.

 

If I get to do a full rotation of 3xTM, Unload, TM, HSM, RS, most players will not realize being hit by unload, HSM and RS as the big hits, creating the illusion I'd just done a ton of damage by using 4-5 TMs (depending one wether they didn't realize HSM at all, or mistook it for another TM).

 

That's the sole reasons why GR gets way less public attention than TM, even though it's the exact same mechanic.

 

Why does it need to be changed then?

 

Honestly. A Spec that relies so heavily on a single ability to boost its damage isn't very entertaining. If I just a bit into melee fighting, I'd probably drop Arsenal just because the alternative would be more entertaining.

 

Synergies between abilities are great, but basing all synergie in the tree on a single ability is the best way to make the specc dull.

 

Giving it a animation that screams "HEY GUYS IMMA SHOOTIN MISSILES OUTTA MY BACKPACK! HEAR ME?! SHOOTIN MISSELS!" is the best way to make it annoying to both the players that use it and those who have to deal with it.

Edited February 29, 2012 by RyuKazuha

[Almghty_gir]

my issue with tracer missle/grav round is this:

• it has an armour debuff attached
  
• it deals good to high damage on hit
  
• it has bonuses to other abilities attached to it
  

 

i'm of the opinion that it should have the armour debuff removed from it. after that, it would actually be okay.

[hellczar]

Server: Nadd's sarcophagus

Bounty Hunter Level: 50

PvP Level:54

 

The issue i have with the animation on TM (beside the fact it looks like i'm popping a squat) is by the time the person gets hit with the missile , if they don't know it's coming, the second has already launched and the 3rd is on it's way. It always seems to me that the first 1.5 seconds take the longest if the player hasn't seen you on the catwalks and you are trying to control the center from up above. by the time they get hit the second missile is already launched. It makes it seem like tracers are coming a bit faster than they actually are.

 

For the most part my rotation looks like this:

Tracer,tracer, tracer, Heat seeker, Rail shot then unload.

 

If I am lucky enough for the Opposing team to crowd up in a ball I will add in explosive dart, fusion missile, Death from Above to take advantage of the grouping. if they are on a catwalk I will use jetpack to knock them off.

 

I Don't tend to use the close quarters skills as much because that's the last place i want to be is right next to someone. I feel far happier at range.

 

Something I've noticed a LOT in Warzones people tend to focus Blindly on a target once they've started attacking them. the target might not be somebody important like a ball carrier but it's someone they've damaged. they either want to finish what they start or they have a channeled skill or doing a skill with a cast time. these players won't move if they are in the process of casting. they stand still and take the hit(s) and then get mad because they let me get a full rotation on them. By the time they move I can pop off my instants Heatseeker/rail shot while i give chase since i have full heat on them.

Edited February 29, 2012 by hellczar

[saido]

Server: Jung Ma

Level: 30

 

I found the turret aspect of Merc too static and the dial-up on tracer not worth the lack of mobility. Switched to Pyro and my damage / kills / survivability went up dramatically. Tracer is like 'snipe' without the cover -- it draws so much attention.

[Terrorshard]

What is the problem. Mercs aren't overpowered. So what if they spam 1 ability? Why does anyone else care so much. If anything it should be the Mercs pissing and moaning because the limited aspect of the class bottlenecks their ability to outplay opponents.