RE is such a farce.

[Treplos]

All complaints aside, there IS something wrong with RE-ing recently. A handful of players are recently saying that RE isn't providing new Schematics.

 

RE is fun, but when tier 1 items get extremely hard to obtain like tier 3 items, then RE becomes discouraging... Not to mention the amount of money you have to invest in it...

 

Then again, any item from HM PVE, PVP or dailies is better, easier to get and costs nothing.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Treplos

[saido]

I have the feeling it gets harder for higher level items. I mastercrafted a Level 9 set of Artifact (Purple Boots) -- WIN -- I know. I RE'd Purple up to around Level 15 to purple regularly (kitting out new alts). I'm trying to R/E a blue 23 chest and no luck so far.

[ChaosMarky]

Then again, any item from HM PVE, PVP or dailies is better, easier to get and costs nothing.

 

True, that is a debatable claim and I agree; most PVP/PVE gears from HMs and Operations are powerful. But every Crew Skill in the game is innately capable of crafting some rather powerful epic items at max-skill.

 

HM flashpoints, World bosses and Operations drop rare crafting items or schematics. And on a side note, people taking the frustrating route (Crafting+RE-ing) should also be rewarded just as much as PVP/FP/OP grinders.

 

Otherwise, they might as well scrap the crafting portion of the crew skills. Then again, this game is awesome to play! I hope they fix the RE-issue soon because the RE dry spell is killing my character..

[jdela]

Here is my experience from yesterday. I am working on Artifice. I am level 50 with all crew skills at 400.

 

RE a green enhancement, 2nd try I get the blue schematic. I am working to get 6 enhancements to blue (then purple). The next two I am at 20 REs for both without a blue schematic. I am out of materials so I have to go spend the time to gather a bunch more. My average has been about 8 for blues and 15 for purples (across al levels). I generally gather my own materials, unless someone puts them up cheap on the GTN.

 

I could never keep up while leveling, except for hilts, at blue only (which was most important for me). So now I craft a few blue versions to put on the GTN and keep trying to get the next schematics. I think the range of the RNG is too broad. Perhaps up both the low end and lower the high end, so that it is rare to get a schematic in say under 7-10 tries and rare not to get a schematic after say 20-25 times. The average cost and time probably stays close to where it is, or maybe a little less, but the absolute frustration of moving past 25 attempts or even 50 attempts would be eliminated.

[IvamAkorahil]

I accumulated a load of mats (loads of x99 stacks) to try and get some Epic schematic (lvl 40-50) from RE'ing.

 

After about a week of crafting, I managed to get 1 blue schematic upgrade, and 1 Epic schematic upgrade, both of which are the Redoubt version which is not what I wanted.

 

I've crafted perhaps over 60 blue items (and 3 times as many Green items) and gotten that 1 Epic upgrade.

 

Who implemented such a system?

 

the system is supposed to prokoke some persons having unlocked schematics no one else has, promoting trading and crafting

[daMarek]

the system is supposed to prokoke some persons having unlocked schematics no one else has, promoting trading and crafting

 

I agree, if everyone could get all the schematics within 3 days it would be gamebreaking

[Runelynx]

Sounds awesome! Make a deal with someone of another craft and make each other's for free.

 

Sounds NOT awesome. The first changes to crafting EQ2 did were to UNDO the logic that you're applying here; forcing reliance on others is NOT fun and will end up with an unused crafting system. I can't even find a flashpoint (and must stand in fleet staring at a wall to do so) and can wait 5-10minutes for a WZ, why on earth do I want to add a new search to my SWTOR life?

 

SWTOR, the eternal search for fun.

 

(and if you're thinking 'well if you don't like it, leave... I just turned 50 and it seems the main fun factor in SWTOR is the leveling/story process... so I'll be out this month unless something changes ;-) )

Edited February 5, 2012 by Runelynx

[Pappus]

Did 100 blue RE's to get my piece and it wasn't really hard, just with companion sending you can get 25 crafts a day easily.

[MrBeef]

After about a week of crafting, I managed to get 1 blue schematic upgrade, and 1 Epic schematic upgrade, both of which are the Redoubt version which is not what I wanted.

 

I don't know if anyone else in this thread said this but if you got the redoubt version (the blue) and didn't want it you should not have RE'd it. It will retain those +defense stats in the purple versions that you learn.

[Shalewind]

Two weeks ago I would have agreed that the RNG worked fine. I've got a lot of artifice crystal artifact recipes that I worked hard to get and it didn't seem insane at the time. That was before the last patch and I attempted to do Enhancement 22s and the final crystals.

 

So far I've REd:

67 GREEN Adept 22 enhancements and never got a Blue.

22 GREEN Battle 22 enhancements and never got a Blue.

And many GREEN crystals and never got a Blue.

 

It's cost a small fortune in Grade 6 Mats and Mission and I've got nothing to show for it.

 

Perhaps I'm unlucky. Perhaps the system needs to support a better mechanic. But I think unless some of these are more attainable during the leveling process that there is no incentive to try for them.

[Amiracle]

I just started to try and RE blue lvl49 light armor legs into any of the purples.

 

I am now 60+ attempts and haven't got a single purple. And that's only for one slot.

 

All I do is micro manage companions and run from node to node.

 

If I wanted to play a game where rng is the key mechanic I would have stuck with Aion.

 

 

And whats up with "There are no mission skills defined for Synth...."

Edited February 5, 2012 by Amiracle

[ChaosMarky]

Two weeks ago I would have agreed that the RNG worked fine. I've got a lot of artifice crystal artifact recipes that I worked hard to get and it didn't seem insane at the time. That was before the last patch and I attempted to do Enhancement 22s and the final crystals.

 

So far I've REd:

67 GREEN Adept 22 enhancements and never got a Blue.

22 GREEN Battle 22 enhancements and never got a Blue.

And many GREEN crystals and never got a Blue.

 

It's cost a small fortune in Grade 6 Mats and Mission and I've got nothing to show for it.

 

Perhaps I'm unlucky. Perhaps the system needs to support a better mechanic. But I think unless some of these are more attainable during the leveling process that there is no incentive to try for them.

 

 

I agree. Something went down during the last patch; that's when I started noticing that the RE chances got WAAAAY too low.

[ColonelKer-Nal]

RNG is random - to the OP, you just have horridly bad luck. Just last night I was doing Artifice crafting on an alt and RE'd a blue schematic after two RE's of the green version of that particular item.

 

Actually RNG is NOT random. It's Pseudo RNG. Some seeds are better than others, but you will always get streaks.

 

Adding at least 1% to each successive attempt is one cure for this.

[ChaosMarky]

Actually RNG is NOT random. It's Pseudo RNG. Some seeds are better than others, but you will always get streaks.

 

Adding at least 1% to each successive attempt is one cure for this.

 

True! But i just want it back the way it was before :0 I was pretty happy last week.. Now it got so difficult. X.x

 

Did a new batch of 20 items today... The Dry Spell continues....

[Treplos]

I don't know if anyone else in this thread said this but if you got the redoubt version (the blue) and didn't want it you should not have RE'd it. It will retain those +defense stats in the purple versions that you learn.

 

It was Overkill (blue) > Redoubt (Epic) as far as I remember.

I got Redoubt twice. I just wanted a Crit epic. It's not like I can choose what I want.

 

Anwyay, I gave up on it. I seriously spent thousands of mats, with only 2 Redoubts Epics to show for it.

 

 

If I wanted to play a game where rng is the key mechanic I would have stuck with Aion.

 

I quit Aion for that reason. The mastercraft quest was such BS and reminds me so much of REing here.

 

 

the system is supposed to prokoke some persons having unlocked schematics no one else has, promoting trading and crafting

 

Sorry, not sure what "prokoke" means, but what I do know is that the current system does not reward anything except sheer dumb luck.

 

Also promote trading and crafting? How?

You can get better items/mods without the losses, headaches and heartaches.

Don't you see the many posts about how worthless almost all crafts are?

Edited February 6, 2012 by Treplos

[Raani]

Both Overkill and Redoubt are blue versions. If you RE-ed the Overkill blue, you may have gotten the +Shield epic, i.e. the Rampart prefix, which I agree is pretty horrible (got that too while trying to get the Surge one).

 

Just so you know, if the green item didn't have any Crit on it, you will never get an epic with Crit from RE-ing an Overkill blue. You can only get Alacrity/Surge/Accuracy/Shield/Presence as an extra stat.

 

If what you're interested in primarily is the Crit, you need to RE the green until you get the Critical blue. From that, you can get an epic with one of the additional stat listed above.

[Treplos]

Both Overkill and Redoubt are blue versions. If you RE-ed the Overkill blue, you may have gotten the +Shield epic, i.e. the Rampart prefix, which I agree is pretty horrible (got that too while trying to get the Surge one).

 

Just so you know, if the green item didn't have any Crit on it, you will never get an epic with Crit from RE-ing an Overkill blue. You can only get Alacrity/Surge/Accuracy/Shield/Presence as an extra stat.

 

If what you're interested in primarily is the Crit, you need to RE the green until you get the Critical blue. From that, you can get an epic with one of the additional stat listed above.

 

Thanks for the clarification and the info.

 

It was indeed rampart (I got 2 of them out of thousands of mats used).

Overkill blue > Rampart epic (shield) lol.

 

I tried many different types of gear btw. All the greens I chose started with Crit.

I was hoping for a Crit/Surge combination.

I also RE'ed a lot of Critical blues but never got any epics from those sadly.

In fact, I would have been ok with anything except Rampart/shields lol.

 

The proc rate is so abysmally low that there just isn't any point in REing as far as I am concerned. If the epic recipe was worth all this trouble, I would grind more resources and spend more time and money on missions. But it just isn't worth all the hassle.

One could just run FPs or do PVP.

 

 

EDIT: I just read this:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=260731

 

Too bad I already unsubbed, not only due to RE ofc, but it seems every single aspect of the game is broken or needs a major patch to fix. Maybe I may return in the future when things get fixed. In the meantime, the above changes seem like a small step in the right direction.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Treplos

[Aepervius]

Actually, I kinda wish they'd implement a modified version their group convo "roll" system (which used to have some awesome crits when it was bugged for those who remember it ) to slightly boost your chance upon every failure.

 

 

That way, you might have a:

• 1.0% chance on your 1st RE of an item.
  
• 1.05% on the 2nd attempt.
  
• 1.1% on the 3rd attempt.
  
• etc
  

That way, even if you're super unlucky, by the 1980th item, you're at a 100% chance (though really you had a 50/50 chance by item #980, and probably either got it or stopped trying well before then). Obviously my example scales linearly, and they could (and probably would) use something completely different.

 

The big problems mind you are that it's not only a new game system they may not have the framework for, but a pile of extra data the server has to keep track of (since it now has to keep track of how many times you RE'ed every single craftable item). Whether it would even be feasible or not to pull off, only BW knows...

 

Actually if you do it that way, let us see the probability to NOT get an RE after x RE.

Since they are all independent we can just multiply them :

 

After 1 RE : 99%

After 2 RE : 0.99*0.985=97.5%

etc....

After 10 RE =0.99*0.985*0.98*0.975*0.97*0.965*0.96*0.955*0.95*0.945*0.94=0.88 (88%) roughly

 

After 20 tries : Only 74% to NOT have gotten the item.

 

basically after 30 tries 59% and 50 tries 32% it goes below 5% after 90 tries

 

If we keep a fix procentage, assuming this is 1% we would have after 1 ry =99% to not get the RE, 2 try =0.99*0.99=98% after 10 try 90% after 20 try 80% and after 30 try 73% heck after 50 tries 60% and 100 tries 36%.

 

Comparing a FIX RNG witha FIX precentage taken as 1% to not have an item (column A) to a moving RNG taking into account pas failure and taking the result above converting into a % to have the RE right (remember above it is the % of NOT having it getting anything) in column B :

 

In column C/D I show a fixed RNG with a base which is 5%/10% and probably much higher than

what we have now.

 

 [font="Fixedsys"]
(success chance , that is 100-chance to NOT have any sucess after the number of tries)
               A fixed RNG  1%      B : increase RNG      C fixed RNG 5%           D fixed RNG 10%
Try 1               1%                    1% (+0.05)                    5%                           10%
Try 10           10%                   12%                                40%                           65% 
Try 20           18%                    25%                               64%                           87%
Try 50            40%                    67%                              92%                           99%
try 70            50%                    85%                               98%               100% minus epsilon
[/font] 

 

 

What I show above is that you do not need a moving percentage. Even with an RNG from which all draw are independent of each others and fixed percentage, you simply can change the base chance , make it higher, and get the same effect. And certainly no complicated code change.

 

The question the dev have to answer is : by which try (30/50/70) they want the player to have a 50/50% chance to have gotten something. This is then simple math to choose the correct percentage. ETA : here is the forumal p(x)=x^n = exp(n*ln(x)) so if you want p(x)=0.5 after say 30 tries that means that your abse percentage x is =exp(ln(p(x)/n)=exp(ln(0.5)/30)=0.977 base, which means 2.3% sucess. if you want to have 50% at 70 try you then got base=exp(ln(0.5)/70)=0.99 1% base (which corrrespond to my calculation).

 

You will always have outliers, people which are unlucky, but the question is : from the dev statistic that they gather from the game do they think the base chance of RE is correctely set ?

 

In other word, what is the base chance to get a schematic at a perticular level , compared to the cost of material , and the plan of the dev the time it should take in averaghe to grind it ? With linear item , BioC, that is probably fine. But with item which are not linear, like armor piece ... ? I feel the system is much too punishing but I don#t have the dev numbers.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Aepervius
Added math formula

[Raani]

It sounds like you were unusually unlucky. Even though I rarely get the most desirable blue prefix the first time, going from green to blue has never been excessively painful. I've had dry streaks, even on linear items, where I had to do 20-30 before something popped, but never 100 greens. The pain starts when you try to go from blue to epic, especially for non-linear items. Like everyone else, I'm sitting on my fair share of Presence versions, +Shield on healer items, or +Surge on tanking items.

 

The suggestion I liked the most, which someone brought up a while ago, was to leave RE chance as it is for purples, but allow us to choose a path. Hence, even if it takes you 100 blues to get the epic you want, at least you know that you'll eventually get something usable.

 

I don't believe it would lead to market flooding, simply because it would still take a lot of mats and a lot of patience (which a lot of people don't have), and because different people have different needs. Stat priorities evolve with gear, and most people have some gear at this point, so they wouldn't all be RE-ing the exact same version. There would be more competition, but at least it wouldn't be this insanely frustrating.

[Xabana]

I agree. Something went down during the last patch; that's when I started noticing that the RE chances got WAAAAY too low.

 

Absolutely. I have had the same diminished success rate after the patch. VERY diminished.

[Cantiga]

I R/Eed~60 of the T1 purple and didn't get anything. I gave up. I would have been ok if I had been R/eing blue, but purple cost was too much and I couldn't even sell the crit one. Now I'm just saving mats for when the R/E rate is improved in the next patch or so.

[Spanxxx]

I've just stopped going for the Blue>Purple REs for now until they implement some changes. The material costs are just too frustrating.

 

I think it should be random, but it should be consistent and rewarding. I don't want to make 2 items and get a proc and then make 67 and get a proc. That's just beyond absurd. Honestly, I'd rather see it as a progression like several others have said. As you do more attempts, your percentage to succeed increases. At least in that situation, you will get a more consistent pattern for success.

 

 

The biggest issue with RE that needs to be changed is the RE of Blue>Purple and learning the same schematic. Once you've learned a schematic, it should be taken out of the selection for you. This way, you still have to overcome the RNG of actually GETTING a new pattern, but at least you will GET one and won't fail. This is an extremely disheartening experience and does nothing but punish the crafter.

 

 

The overall concern I have though is that most of the schematics we get are no better than the gear everyone is getting from HMs and OPs or that they are making for themselves with mods.

 

How about giving us gear (armor/synth/arms) that is moddable with base stats on it already that we can then improve via the normal RE process. This would make our gear a marketable commodity, thus lifting the player driven market model to a reasonable level.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Spanxxx

[OldSwab]

I wanted the reusable +1500 armor stim (purple 48). I RE'd around 15 last week, and quit.

 

Noticed a stack of 5 on the auction yesterday, got it on the third try.

 

Also, don't discount the auction as a good place to "farm" raw mats. Time is your most valuable asset. Waiting on pets to get back from semi-random bioanalysis gathering--for semi-random materials--is kind of a waste when credits start rolling in easily.

[Larkie]

Absolutely. I have had the same diminished success rate after the patch. VERY diminished.

 

Nope, nothing changed. Fact, not speculation.

[ChaosMarky]

absolutely. I have had the same diminished success rate after the patch. Very diminished.

 

bioware!! Hear us!! Pls fix this in the upcoming patch!! >o<