Arhasaro Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Just noticing it after today's patch, but several of our talents seem to have been changed. In Darkness, the only change I see is that Wither now grants Harnessed Darkness charges. In Deception, Induction requires you to be using Surging Charge to get the force cost reduction on Shock. Lots of changes in Madness, it seems. Crackling Charge now reduces cooldown of Discharge. Tooltip doesn't explain amount. Raze has been changed. Instead of a 30% of melee critical hits granting Raze, it is now any melee hit against targets affected by lightning charge's discharge effect grants Raze. Kinda gimps that Darkness/Madness hybrid build. In addition, this can only apply once every 7.5 seconds, up from no limit previously. Death field's healing has been changed to 1% of max hp per target hit, maximum of 3 targets. Only changes that I noticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talyn_Rahl Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Man if they change Death field to heal for 1% of total health, but leave frakkin Dark Charge as a static number..... It would almost be enough to make be go HD/DF hybrid... oh.... wait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technohic Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Just noticing it after today's patch, but several of our talents seem to have been changed. In Darkness, the only change I see is that Wither now grants Harnessed Darkness charges. In Deception, Induction requires you to be using Surging Charge to get the force cost reduction on Shock. Lots of changes in Madness, it seems. Crackling Charge now reduces cooldown of Discharge. Tooltip doesn't explain amount. Raze has been changed. Instead of a 30% of melee critical hits granting Raze, it is now any melee hit against targets affected by lightning charge's discharge effect grants Raze. Kinda gimps that Darkness/Madness hybrid build. In addition, this can only apply once every 7.5 seconds, up from no limit previously. Death field's healing has been changed to 1% of max hp per target hit, maximum of 3 targets. Only changes that I noticed. What!?! Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arhasaro Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 Well, Wither isn't granting me Harnessed Darkness charges. Possible that only the tooltips were changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeppTB Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Well, Wither isn't granting me Harnessed Darkness charges. Possible that only the tooltips were changed. That tooltip was changed last patch. Lots of threads asking "Why isn't wither giving me harnessed darkness?" and the consensus was: "Because it was an early tooltip change and not an actual mechanic change." So, this looks like no change from last week. Tooltip is wrong. Maybe it will eventually be right, or, changed back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkcheng Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Probably undocumented because none of them have actually been implemented yet. So far all we have are the tooltip changes but the intended effect are not yet taking place. I'm guessing when they do make the talent match what the tooltip says we'll get the documented changes. As of now I've already switched from the 0/13/28 hybrid to full Madness to get used to the new build's rotation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordbishopX Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I swear why in the world would they change the tool tips only BW has some serious QC issues in software development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthCnox Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Just noticing it after today's patch, but several of our talents seem to have been changed. In Darkness, the only change I see is that Wither now grants Harnessed Darkness charges. In Deception, Induction requires you to be using Surging Charge to get the force cost reduction on Shock. Lots of changes in Madness, it seems. Crackling Charge now reduces cooldown of Discharge. Tooltip doesn't explain amount. Raze has been changed. Instead of a 30% of melee critical hits granting Raze, it is now any melee hit against targets affected by lightning charge's discharge effect grants Raze. Kinda gimps that Darkness/Madness hybrid build. In addition, this can only apply once every 7.5 seconds, up from no limit previously. Death field's healing has been changed to 1% of max hp per target hit, maximum of 3 targets. Only changes that I noticed. I swear to Christ that requirement of surging charge for induction better not be true. Why is it that we have talents that require you to buy other talents in order to use? Jesus christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkcheng Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I swear to Christ that requirement of surging charge for induction better not be true. Why is it that we have talents that require you to buy other talents in order to use? Jesus christ. It's going to be true, BW wants to kill hybrid builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technohic Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) If they want to kill "hybrid" builds, I hope they at least leave the bottom parts of each tree that would be reachable by say, 10 points or less not so limited seeing as you are going to have a few leftover points after filling a tree and then maybe a little more so you are not limited to pretty much being COMPLETELY identical and just throwing away the extra points. I mean, why even bother having a talent tree if you don't want people to be creative? What makes the talents any different than choosing advanced classes if you can't customize a bit? I don't know. Its just making me not care for the talent system after already sitting there looking at something like Hollow on the Darkness line which you could get by level 26/27 yet can only make use of half of what it does for you since the other half relies on an ability you don't get until level 50. Edited January 31, 2012 by Technohic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talyn_Rahl Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 It's going to be true, BW wants to kill hybrid builds. ya know what a great way is to kill hybrid builds? make the pure builds worth a damn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinkfreudHC Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 ya know what a great way is to kill hybrid builds? make the pure builds worth a damn... The 31 Deception build isn't bad. Sure, most everybody abandoned it for the 28/13 build, but it's still viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byteresistor Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 If they plan to destroy hybrid builds then they better address madness and deception survability because playing a sin in PvP with anything but Dark Charge is a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kursyu Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 If they plan to destroy hybrid builds then they better address madness and deception survability because playing a sin in PvP with anything but Dark Charge is a joke. Once you get a lot of gear it gets better. Currently running Decep-sin and I can only take 1 geared enemy, or a couple that aren't full PVP. The trick to playing Deception is actually knowing how to play it. You can't charge into a group like a warrior/darkness-sin. Gotta pick off healers, or single enemies that stray too far from the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XParoleX Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Once you get a lot of gear it gets better. Currently running Decep-sin and I can only take 1 geared enemy, or a couple that aren't full PVP. The trick to playing Deception is actually knowing how to play it. You can't charge into a group like a warrior/darkness-sin. Gotta pick off healers, or single enemies that stray too far from the group. Yeah, but why limit yourself? Running around looking for a single enemy to kill helps your group how? You can be a monster with good dps or have a little better dps and be squishy thats it. Why would you take option 2 under any circumstance? Hide and look for single targets or rush a group take people out and live. Option #2 is the only viable option! DW is a must. 23/0/18 4tw! Edited February 1, 2012 by XParoleX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabbathius Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) If they plan to destroy hybrid builds then they better address madness and deception survability because playing a sin in PvP with anything but Dark Charge is a joke. I'm looking into my Magic 8 Ball, and you know what I see? They will do nothing about Deception or Madness survivability. Then, they will see people STILL using Dark Charge, regardless of their actual spec. And they will say to themselves "Hey, they're still using Dark Charge! It must be overpowered." And then they will nerf it to crap. Wait and see. I'm serious. I can TOTALLY see it happening, the way things have been going so far. Once you get a lot of gear it gets better. That's because you're now killing undergeared people. Once everyone is geared, you return to status quo. Follow me on this one. Expertise reduces your damage taken, and increases your damage done by an identical amount. Two people, with same Expertise, will have their respective Expertise ratings cancel each other out. Your +100 damage will be canceled by his -100 damage taken, and his +100 damage done will be canceled by your -100 damage taken. When I see people say "get geared, it gets better", that's just a copout. It doesn't get better. You just outgear more people. But eventually they will catch up, and we're back to square one. Edited February 1, 2012 by Sabbathius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GruulTapul Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) That's because you're now killing undergeared people. Once everyone is geared, you return to status quo. Follow me on this one. Expertise reduces your damage taken, and increases your damage done by an identical amount. Two people, with same Expertise, will have their respective Expertise ratings cancel each other out. Your +100 damage will be canceled by his -100 damage taken, and his +100 damage done will be canceled by your -100 damage taken. When I see people say "get geared, it gets better", that's just a copout. It doesn't get better. You just outgear more people. But eventually they will catch up, and we're back to square one. Deception damage scales differently compared to Darkness. The discharge and the damage from surging charge ignore armor and have very good growth values. Expertise scales equally on all players, but all the internal damage will never by affected by higher armor values, which means that you discharge is only going to do more damage as you gear up, while nearly every darkness attack will get scaled twice in the current system (armor and expertise). This is why at lower levels the damage difference between darkness and deception seems very low, since those effects don't kick in. They do however everybody is geared; so the difference in damage does indeed get bigger with each PvP Item you get. This is why discharge becomes very deadly at BM level and shock becomes less and less of a threat, especially since crit damage is a function of real damage dealt after mitigation. Add in the critical damage feats from Deception and you're looking at very high, armor piercing attacks on full BM chars around the 3-5k Mark, something which is impossible for Darkness to have. Still, at "low" PvP Levels Darkness is your best bet. For a new Level 50 Char, the small increase in damage is not worth it, imho. Edited February 1, 2012 by GruulTapul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varcan Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Deception damage scales differently compared to Darkness. The discharge and the damage from surging charge ignore armor and have very good growth values. Expertise scales equally on all players, but all the internal damage will never by affected by higher armor values, which means that you discharge is only going to do more damage as you gear up, while nearly every darkness attack will get scaled twice in the current system (armor and expertise). This is why at lower levels the damage difference between darkness and deception seems very low, since those effects don't kick in. They do however everybody is geared; so the difference in damage does indeed get bigger with each PvP Item you get. This is why discharge becomes very deadly at BM level and shock becomes less and less of a threat, especially since crit damage is a function of real damage dealt after mitigation. Add in the critical damage feats from Deception and you're looking at very high, armor piercing attacks on full BM chars around the 3-5k Mark, something which is impossible for Darkness to have. Still, at "low" PvP Levels Darkness is your best bet. For a new Level 50 Char, the small increase in damage is not worth it, imho. I completely agree. I've been a big supporter of the 23/0/18, and still think its the most overpowered build at the moment, but I've recently switched to 7/31/3. Im starting into BM gear, and now have my willpower/power stim that persist through death. Combined with the fact that I do think the nerf to hybrid build viablitiy is coming, I'm being proactive and learning this build now. I already see it being greatly more viable than my first impression when I tried it for a few days after I first hit 50. Undergeared people just melt off my screen when I stare at them:p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xirinia Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 JCrackling Charge now reduces cooldown of Discharge. Tooltip doesn't explain amount. I tested it yesterday. Put a point into it, the cooldown on Discharge did not change. Provided, it was at 12 seconds already. Maybe it reduces only from the base 15 seconds, haven't checked that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthCnox Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I completely agree. I've been a big supporter of the 23/0/18, and still think its the most overpowered build at the moment, but I've recently switched to 7/31/3. Im starting into BM gear, and now have my willpower/power stim that persist through death. Combined with the fact that I do think the nerf to hybrid build viablitiy is coming, I'm being proactive and learning this build now. I already see it being greatly more viable than my first impression when I tried it for a few days after I first hit 50. Undergeared people just melt off my screen when I stare at them:p. Can we please choose our words more carefully? "I've been a big supporter of the 23/0/18, and still think its the most overpowered build at the moment..." Overpowered? So, you're saying that you can kill an opponent within 6 seconds with that build? Or, you can win 3v1 fights? Or, you never loose 1v1? Or do you mean 'strongest of the alternative builds'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XParoleX Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Can we please choose our words more carefully? "I've been a big supporter of the 23/0/18, and still think its the most overpowered build at the moment..." Overpowered? So, you're saying that you can kill an opponent within 6 seconds with that build? Or, you can win 3v1 fights? Or, you never loose 1v1? Or do you mean 'strongest of the alternative builds'? Geared 1 vs 1 you shouldn't loose, you can kill people extremely easy you can take multiple people, you can hold a door or a turret against a crowd long enough for teammates to come help etc. 23/0/18 is the strongest PVP build! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthCnox Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Geared 1 vs 1 you shouldn't loose, you can kill people extremely easy you can take multiple people, you can hold a door or a turret against a crowd long enough for teammates to come help etc. 23/0/18 is the strongest PVP build! See you lost me at 'Geared 1v1 you shouldn't loose'. Why? I must be bad because on my best day if i get into a 1v1 it's usually 50/50 chance I will win. Against specific classes (Operative/Scoundrels) it's NEVER a win 1v1, I always have to do something to escape or then just bust me down. I might not die every time, but 1v1 against operatives if I gain an edge they disappear and if I can't gain the advantage quickly, then I'm escaping myself. You're dreaming (and a liar) if you say you can walk into any 1v1 situation and win. As far as the 23/0/18 build being 'best' for pvp...I tried it, and I couldn't capitalize chain shock enough because the cost of shock was unsustainable (hence the induction talent in deception). I'm having more success 27/14/0. YMMV, but 'best' is in the eye of the beholder. Edited February 1, 2012 by DarthCnox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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