Known Nerf + Silent nerf

[Scardoom]

Well i made an operative because everyone said they was so good.

 

Hes still low lvl and have had him for roughly 3 days give or take.

First thing to notice was the dmg output and his regular hits versus crit numbers.

 

When your in warzone since you get boosted so you can compete, its very clear what you can do and what you cannot do at lower lvls versus when you at higher lvls with pvp gear and high lvl skill trees.

 

As of last night i was able to crit 2k like every other shiv or backstab, and using the rifle on runners was basically 400dmg slightly higher sometimes if i was lucky.

 

Basic gear mind you and still havent changed anything since last night.

 

Well i come on today and see the patch notes and decided to check him out in warzones again, making sure to try my best to do the same things as last night.

 

Tried to fight all the various lvls of people just as i did when playing last night , just to get a feel for whats changed.

 

Since nothing has changed from last night aside from the patch it should be almost the same.

 

Also since the patch notes about operatives AND the abilities that was changed are something my low lvl guy doesnt have access to yet, there really shouldnt be any difference for me since i dont have those skills.

 

Well i can tell you right now that it HAS in fact changed and not for just a little bit. Not once out of 7 games varying from fighting lvl 10's to i think the highest i went against was 46, did my character ever reach a hit greater then 1700.

 

I take into account that befor the patch i could at least break the 2k mark and sometimes 2.3k with my crappy gear and the fact warzone boosts you for the battle.

 

This to me is definatly a silent nerf to the maximum higher end of the damage for this class. NOT just the abilities they listed.

 

I really hate it that bioware lied and was sneaky enough to do this. The only reason it bothers me so much is not that i play an operative as my main , because i dont. The part that bothers me is that if they are sneaky like this to one class, then most definatly down the road my main will more then likely get the same treatment.

 

Do i think the nerf was to rough? Yes i do think it was extreme. Do i think they will retract it because of forum posts and admit they went to far? Nope i dont believe the company ever will.

 

My main got killed by operatives plenty of times and i still think the only nerf to them that was needed was the initial knockdown time for jarred strike.

 

That was the only one i think was out of balance. So what if im getting dotted and stabbed coming out from there stealth. I can pop a stim or just bubble and heal, and my guy isnt a healer just a scorcerer in the madness tree.

 

The operatives gave me a good fight and stealthers always should i think. Yes i got critted sometimes for over 4k, but then i think about my unlimited lightning and 800 to almost 1k a tick and that adds up to even more.

 

This was a sneaky trick to start out with and a good sign to what we are going to have to look forward to with this company.

 

To be honest its a bit disturbing that they are already taking the time to nerf classes pointlessly and to extreme, BUT not one mention of the people running speed hacks and clipping hacks.

 

I have witnessed this many many times and even messaged one of the fellows letting him know i reported him for what i and others had seen him do.

 

He just proceeded to tell me hes been doing it since beta and is still going strong. Those was his exact words. Then he continued to even brag about it in open general chat.

 

Im sure people here on the forums know his name and his buddies name, but i dont want to quote there names here since i do not know if its allowed.

 

All i ever got for my reporting answers was the same non common discloser in game mail that you recieve about anythihng. The basic blaa blaaa thanks and we cant tell you anything about what we will do.

 

Well since the guy is on the dark side i have him and his friend in my friends list and they are still doing everythihng just as befor.

 

Basically i think bioware doesnt care and with starting off with nerf extremes instead of the real issues, i think this game is going down the path alot of other ones have done. In the short amount of time what they are doing will end this games population and subs.

 

It had potential of more then most games ive seen come out in the past couple years, but once a company starts down this type of path it always fails, and everyone here knows it to.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Scardoom

[SkillzKillz]

*********** Bioware. I really liked this game. Its a pitty really

[Letsjet]

AAHH.. wall of text

[SkillzKillz]

Honest and Truthful. Ignorance ignores both.

Biowares modo=Its are way or the high way.

[Scardoom]

AAHH.. wall of text

 

Sorry for the long post, i tired to break it up for easier reading but im not an english major rofl.

 

Just use the force and see through it.

[ZelpharMoonglade]

The nerf was known for couple of weeks now from the testing server, but after awhile people will get used to the new config and learn to play the job a different way.

[SkillzKillz]

Anyone know any other good mmo's? Cause if this is true then im done with this ****

[Scardoom]

The nerf was known for couple of weeks now from the testing server, but after awhile people will get used to the new config and learn to play the job a different way.

 

I looked at the test server notes from befor they patched live. It said nothing about nerfing base dmg across the board.

 

I know for a fact thats what they just did, and i explained that to you.

[ZelpharMoonglade]

I looked at the test server notes from befor they patched live. It said nothing about nerfing base dmg across the board.

 

I know for a fact thats what they just did, and i explained that to you.

 

Might not been in notes but been plenty of boards post about it for weeks.

[Arrys]

checking damage nerfs is best accomplished on PvE mobs of stable level type.

 

I say that as particularly sub 50 in pvp many things could impact your performance that may not be unique to your charachter and a like mob always has the same toolset. And your crits can also do a bad RND run where your getting the crits but a lower overall damage roll to be boosted. Ever DE 50 items and get no improvement to then get 5 over the next 10?

 

PvP has way to many variables to account for to be certain of anything.

[Jestuh]

checking damage nerfs is best accomplished on PvE mobs of stable level type.

 

I say that as particularly sub 50 in pvp many things could impact your performance that may not be unique to your charachter and a like mob always has the same toolset. And your crits can also do a bad RND run where your getting the crits but a lower overall damage roll to be boosted. Ever DE 50 items and get no improvement to then get 5 over the next 10?

 

PvP has way to many variables to account for to be certain of anything.

 

Yeah what he said. This operative nerf was to hidden strike, acid blade, and jarring strike. It's stuff you don't get access to until lvl 36.

 

If there are differences in operative base damage I'm sure they will be reported soon. But it could have just been you fighting against higher level people with better armor (reduced damage) or that you were fighting people with shields up etc. PVP has too many variables like level, powers, toggles, stances, armor type/level,skill spec, shields, and just the roll of the dice to consistently give you meaningful data on this.

 

I'm not saying there wasn't an overall nerf but I will check tonight and repost if my non-hidden strike and acid blade related combos are off in PVE.

[Shivus]

Anyone know any other good mmo's? Cause if this is true then im done with this ****

 

Back in my day we actually bothered to log onto alt accounts.

[Crazysithslayer]

Just wait till GW2.... that's what I plan on doing unless Bioware gets it's head out of the hole and properly starts fixing things!

[Smangin]

Just wait till GW2.... that's what I plan on doing unless Bioware gets it's head out of the hole and properly starts fixing things!

 

^^^^^^

 

I am enjoying this story driven mmo, I actually pay attention to my class quests and find them intriguing. However...from a leveling standpoint I really don't think its right to balance this class just because a few people in the end game PVP are shredding a little harder than others (which might also be debatable, frankly isn't it too soon to tell?). I mean I barely got my stealth attack last week (lvl 36 is a bit much), give me a break! haha

[Imasquishy]

I have to agree with Arrys, one should judge nerfs and buffs based on PvE numbers. BioWare could have intentionally nerfed the boost for PvP because they felt it was too powerful there, while not affecting the numbers that one would output in a PvE environment.

[Zolaz]

Bioware just doesnt like Operatives ... the recent nerfs with no help because of their bad class design is apparent.

[Ahebish]

Welcome to World of Warcraft 2.0.

 

Enjoy your stay.

[Scardoom]

I did like everyone suggested and tested things out on pve while trying to do my class quests.

 

Well i myself at least am convinced there was some kind of silent nerf. The numbers just arent what they was the night befor the patch. Also as i stated befor, i realize that i do not have the abilities that was listed in the patch notes that gopt changed.

 

That is my whole point to what i was originally posting, is that since i dont HAVE those abilities yet, that my damage shouldnt have been effected corret?

 

Just on a side note, as i said earlier the known hacks that are now running rampant all over the place are just getting plain annoying.

 

Befor it seemd to be mainly in the warzones but NOW i am seeing it in the field with griefers near outposts and towns. My sith scorcerer is lvl 47. I dont know what you guys know about these hacks but i can tell you, it isnt a fair fight if they are moving so fast even the guards dont have time to lock onto them and half the time dont even attack because of the speed they are traveling.

 

Plus walking through buildings and walls is giving the guards pathing issues you wouldnt believe, not to mention theres no way in hell you will be able to chase one of these people down to kill them. Fighting back is useless and going out to quest, if they are griefing you, well you might as well just log out.

 

I asked out in general chat and people was like < yeah theres nothing you can do about it> and they said reporting it was useless also. One guy even said hes been reporting it and coming here to the forums and posting but his posts get removed as fast as he puts them up, and talks about the hacks.

 

Ill post mine anyways and see for myself if they respond or just delete the thing. I really dont care at this point.

[Avia]

Sorry mate, but personal experience without any sort of broadbase testing means nothing. I know for a fact that my damage remained fairly similar to what it was. There is a bit of a loss from the 20% arpen change, but it really isn't too noticeable.

[ExiledOne]

Took my 50 op on Belsavis dailies yesterday, just for a test I took on several level 43 strongs, one after the other.

 

My findings are below.

 

1) stealth, ab, HS: 1505 (Downwards from 3200 if I crit, 2808 if I don't)

2) Backstab: 2394, due to ab buff, down by 1k used to hit for 3000 reliably.

3: Shiv: 1707 (Critical I think)

4) Lacerate: 1500 (non crit), lacerate: 1800 (critical)

5) debiliate: 900

 

Repeat rotation, realize I am out of end, frantically backstab and shiv, hit stim booster.

Gain 30 energy, not enough, hit Adrenaline probe, finish off mob, stop and recuperate.

 

Repeat pattern for the other four same mob types.

 

 

Among the four my damage was consistent unless I crit, and my crits rarely broke 2k, only once did I see 2500 on a hidden strike.

 

On backstab my criticals in order were, 2394, and 2000 (Same mob types, 1 and 2), did not critical on 3 or 4 and only hit for 1700.

 

With Shiv I only critical hit on that first mob, afterwards I only got 1500 damage on the other three.

 

Lacerate: would sometimes proc additional strike for 700 damage, only happened twice out of the 16 times I used it (twice on each mob). Damage consistent across the board, Crit twice, 1800 on first mob, then 1707 on second.

 

Debilitate never crit for me unfortunately.

 

The having to use Stim Boost and Adrenaline Probe occured EVERY FIGHT, thus my lowered DPS caused me to use skills more and incur energy regen punishment due to how the class is designed. An obvious oversight, or maybe stupidity not to take into consideration they designed this class to kill QUICKLY and gave it punishments for not doing so.

 

(energy regen debuff if below 60 energy, lowers by more the lower you go), no real dodge chance, no real defense mitigation from armor, Skills take an insane energy cost.

 

Stats below on character and skill costs.

 

Level 50 Operative.

strength: 62, Presence 240, Aim 118, cunning 1226, Endurance 1012, Willpower 63, Expertise 0.

Tech Damage: bonus damag 533.3, Bonus healing 384.1, Accuracy 102.45, Critical chance 32.39$, Critical multiplier 78.34%, Energy regen rate 5.0 (Energy regen mechanic), activation speed 0.91%

 

Skill energy useage list below.

 

Stealth: 0

Acid Blade: 13 energy 2 second cooldown.

Hidden strike: 0 energy, 9 second cooldown, only useable in stealth and behind opponent.

Backstab: 0 energy , 9 second cooldown, only useable from behind opponent.

Shiv: 15 energy, 6 second cooldown,.

Laceration: 15 energy, o CD, requires TA

Debilitate: 15 enegy, 45 second cooldown.

 

Once in a while I'd throw in eviscerate if I could manage to get the energy.

Eviscerate: 0 energy, 45 second cooldown, requires incapacitated opponent.

 

Let's add up energy costs shall we?

AB 13, + shiv 15 + Laceration 15 x 2, + debiliate 15.

 

First rotation in combat = 73 energy used, total of 23 remaining (regen mechanic forces me to regen 1 end a second when this low) immediately pop stim boost (ignoring third laceration pop just to stim), I now have 57 energy.

Backstab , then shiv: now I have 42 energy, Laceration, I now have 27 energy.

 

Forced to use regular rifle shots to try and finish mob and regen.

 

My fighting time has gone from 30 seconds to a minute as a burst class is designed to do, to almost four minutes and change.

 

Thus what the nerf (fix they call it, hah!) has done to operative PVE.

At least they could have lowered energy costs to compensate for the lack of actual damage we do now.

 

It's fustrating to have to ask for help on NORMAL dailies (not heroics) because you can't even fight reliably anymore, and I'm not geared, I just got two tionese equips from my first HM TONIGHT, after my dailies were done.

 

all the pvpers are crowing and mocking a class, but who did you guys want for DPS in the Hard Modes and Operations, I do believe that was a Concealment Operative for their armor debuff and damage right?

 

There went that.

[Halefthaut]

Well i made an operative because everyone said they was so good.

 

 

Hence the nerf. What did you expect, globalling people forever?

[pairadox]

Hence the nerf. What did you expect, globalling people forever?

 

Why not? Commandos are still grav spamming their way to the top of the charts.

 

Dont see people screaming out about that.

[Vonleo]

Took my 50 op on Belsavis dailies yesterday, just for a test I took on several level 43 strongs, one after the other.

 

My findings are below.

 

1) stealth, ab, HS: 1505 (Downwards from 3200 if I crit, 2808 if I don't)

2) Backstab: 2394, due to ab buff, down by 1k used to hit for 3000 reliably.

3: Shiv: 1707 (Critical I think)

4) Lacerate: 1500 (non crit), lacerate: 1800 (critical)

5) debiliate: 900

 

Repeat rotation, realize I am out of end, frantically backstab and shiv, hit stim booster.

Gain 30 energy, not enough, hit Adrenaline probe, finish off mob, stop and recuperate.

 

Repeat pattern for the other four same mob types.

 

 

Among the four my damage was consistent unless I crit, and my crits rarely broke 2k, only once did I see 2500 on a hidden strike.

 

On backstab my criticals in order were, 2394, and 2000 (Same mob types, 1 and 2), did not critical on 3 or 4 and only hit for 1700.

 

With Shiv I only critical hit on that first mob, afterwards I only got 1500 damage on the other three.

 

Lacerate: would sometimes proc additional strike for 700 damage, only happened twice out of the 16 times I used it (twice on each mob). Damage consistent across the board, Crit twice, 1800 on first mob, then 1707 on second.

 

Debilitate never crit for me unfortunately.

 

The having to use Stim Boost and Adrenaline Probe occured EVERY FIGHT, thus my lowered DPS caused me to use skills more and incur energy regen punishment due to how the class is designed. An obvious oversight, or maybe stupidity not to take into consideration they designed this class to kill QUICKLY and gave it punishments for not doing so.

 

(energy regen debuff if below 60 energy, lowers by more the lower you go), no real dodge chance, no real defense mitigation from armor, Skills take an insane energy cost.

 

Stats below on character and skill costs.

 

Level 50 Operative.

strength: 62, Presence 240, Aim 118, cunning 1226, Endurance 1012, Willpower 63, Expertise 0.

Tech Damage: bonus damag 533.3, Bonus healing 384.1, Accuracy 102.45, Critical chance 32.39$, Critical multiplier 78.34%, Energy regen rate 5.0 (Energy regen mechanic), activation speed 0.91%

 

Skill energy useage list below.

 

Stealth: 0

Acid Blade: 13 energy 2 second cooldown.

Hidden strike: 0 energy, 9 second cooldown, only useable in stealth and behind opponent.

Backstab: 0 energy , 9 second cooldown, only useable from behind opponent.

Shiv: 15 energy, 6 second cooldown,.

Laceration: 15 energy, o CD, requires TA

Debilitate: 15 enegy, 45 second cooldown.

 

Once in a while I'd throw in eviscerate if I could manage to get the energy.

Eviscerate: 0 energy, 45 second cooldown, requires incapacitated opponent.

 

Let's add up energy costs shall we?

AB 13, + shiv 15 + Laceration 15 x 2, + debiliate 15.

 

First rotation in combat = 73 energy used, total of 23 remaining (regen mechanic forces me to regen 1 end a second when this low) immediately pop stim boost (ignoring third laceration pop just to stim), I now have 57 energy.

Backstab , then shiv: now I have 42 energy, Laceration, I now have 27 energy.

 

Forced to use regular rifle shots to try and finish mob and regen.

 

My fighting time has gone from 30 seconds to a minute as a burst class is designed to do, to almost four minutes and change.

 

Thus what the nerf (fix they call it, hah!) has done to operative PVE.

At least they could have lowered energy costs to compensate for the lack of actual damage we do now.

 

It's fustrating to have to ask for help on NORMAL dailies (not heroics) because you can't even fight reliably anymore, and I'm not geared, I just got two tionese equips from my first HM TONIGHT, after my dailies were done.

 

all the pvpers are crowing and mocking a class, but who did you guys want for DPS in the Hard Modes and Operations, I do believe that was a Concealment Operative for their armor debuff and damage right?

 

There went that.

 

Snipers can debuff and do probably much more DPS as a operative and stay long distance...as for pvp both classes are in the same boat....

[Halefthaut]

Why not? Commandos are still grav spamming their way to the top of the charts.

 

Dont see people screaming out about that.

 

You are quite a noob if you cant kill a commando 1v1. Most of their shots are casted, interrupt or LoS them and they are useless. Play a merc yourself and see what im talking about.

[tehking]

Yea, they want ia's/smuggs to respec heals obv, overnerfs ftw.