Please, Don't Roll on Items for Another Class in Your Team

[sjmc]

And anyway if needing for companions is allowed, it does not make everyone equal.

 

Smuggler will need for his companions all the gear a vanguard trooper can use

Smuggler will need for his companions nearly all the gear trooper can use for his companions

Trooper does not need for his companions anything a smuggler can use.

Trooper does not need any of the gear 2 of smugglers companions can use

 

Jedi knight can need a blaster rifle for one of his companions

Trooper does not need a lightsaber for any of his companions

I think this is a valid line of argument. As a smuggler, I have no use for light armor, medium +Str armor or anything with willpower. With my current companion (Akaavi), I look for medium +cunning armor and heavy +aim armor (which puts me up against troopers).

 

Given that dynamic, if I was planning to roll need on +AIM heavy armor (which happens to be all I really need right now since I recently bought the full level 40 PVP kit for myself and like the look) and there was a trooper in the group, I would probably talk to him early on -- since this would come up on every roll. I would generally be happy to let him have what he needs if I can roll need on the rest to get ahead of everyone else.

 

I think the best solution for the companion issue is to have a separate "need for companion" button that has a lower priority than "need" but higher than "greed".

[Kresharth]

What can you even do with Greed items anyway? Money? Pointless - we all have more than we can even spend.

[Crash-X]

I'm tellin ya ...your beating your head against a heavily over-inflated wall of need.

 

...and it won't budge.

 

It's obvious that three choices are one too many. One needs to be removed.

 

The problem I have is people rolling need on items that they can't use...

 

 

Yes, I only roll Need on items I can and will use - IE: the item WILL be equipped - and everyone else in my groups gets to do so as well.

 

So you will roll need on an orange piece of sage gear that...

 

1.) You can't use. You can't equip it. It is for sages, it's not for you.

2.) Your companion can't use it.

 

You can't use the gear. That's a very selfish roll if I had to say so myself.

[Maccaroth]

What do players get in your groups?

Less competition on class loot and equal chances to gain any other loot. It's less unpredictable and it allows you to gear your character first. If there are four different classes then all of them get 100% on their class gear. Everybody benefits. Your groups have fair chances, but it's decided by random roll on everything that will drop. Not something I like. I simply want bigger chances on my class loot than compete with random number of players selecting random loot choices. It's that simple. Same goal but different ways.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Maccaroth

[crica]

What can you even do with Greed items anyway? Money? Pointless - we all have more than we can even spend.

 

 

How?

 

The only way I have found to make any significant amount of credits is the GTN - but how are players getting the credits to buy my items I list on the GTN???

[Kresharth]

Less competition on class loot and equal chances to gain any other loot. It's less unpredictable and it allows you to gear your character first. If there are four different classes then all of them get 100% on their class gear. Everybody benefits. Your groups have fair chances, but it's decided by random roll on everything that will drop. Not something I like. I simply want bigger chances on my class loot than compete with random number of players selecting random loot choices. It's that simple. Same goal but different ways.

 

For you "class" = main toon only

For others "class" = toon + companion

[Wilenator]

I am in a guild that came over as a group from WoW. We have been playing for many years together and have gotten past such things as looting item that do not improve our over all goals. Witht that in mind i want to share my experience from last nights Ev and KP runs.

 

My guild seems high in Merc dps atm and we normally run with 2-3 mercs. We are moving fast through content and kill most all the bosses on normal mode with ambitions of moving into HM content soon.

 

Now in the 7 bosses downed I recieved 5 pieces of loot of which I am not complaining. i got Columni Waist / 2 Helms a Off hand weapon and some wrists i think. Of which I had all of prior to beginning our slaughter. The other BH's in the group and I discussed drops and realised that both of them could have used all the gear that was forced into my bags. As well as some of the drops they received could have benefitted myself.

 

Our goals as a whole are being slowed by the current loot distrobution system. I read the stuff Bioware is putting out about new content and it is driving me somewhat crazy knowing that efforts are being used for that when current content is so broken.

[Crash-X]

I believe he was very clear on this.

 

YES if he wants the item.

 

Now will you answer him on his question - do people get to make their own choices in your group or do they only get to roll when YOU say so.

 

"Own choice" / "My choice" as answer please...

 

Okay but you can 'want' any item for any reason.

 

No make your own decisions. Just be aware that i'll be making my own decisions about who I group with in the future because you decided to roll on a piece a gear that you can't even use. Hey if I decide to drop from the group because I'm frustrated and had to run the FP 5 times just to get that piece to drop and you needed something you can't use don't be mad at my decision.

[crica]

Less competition on class loot and equal chances to gain any other loot.

 

Since I don't need anymore class loot, there is no reason for me to join your group.

 

Is there anything else you want to offer me? Perhaps equal chance to win the gear I DO need?

Edited February 1, 2012 by crica

[Crash-X]

Less competition on class loot and equal chances to gain any other loot. It's less unpredictable and it allows you to gear your character first. If there are four different classes then all of them get 100% on their class gear. Everybody benefits. Your groups have fair chances, but it's decided by random roll on everything that will drop. Not something I like. I simply want bigger chances on my class loot than compete with random number of players selecting random loot choices. It's that simple. Same goal but different ways.

 

You win.

[crica]

So you will roll need on an orange piece of sage gear that...

 

1.) You can't use. You can't equip it. It is for sages, it's not for you.

2.) Your companion can't use it.

 

You can't use the gear. That's a very selfish roll if I had to say so myself.

 

Are you even reading my reply's?

 

I clearly said I ONLY roll Need on gear that I CAN and WILL equip.

[Crash-X]

Are you even reading my reply's?

 

I clearly said I ONLY roll Need on gear that I CAN and WILL equip.

 

Did you read the question I asked?

 

Are you going to roll need on orange sage gear? You said yes.

[crica]

Did you read the question I asked?

 

Are you going to roll need on orange sage gear? You said yes.

 

Yes, everyone in the group is free to roll Need on anything they CAN and WILL equip since they helped run the FP.

 

You don't want to be able to roll Need on anything you CAN and WILL equip?

 

Ok, want to join and NOT be allowed to roll Need on anything you CAN and WILL equip then?

 

/confused

Edited February 1, 2012 by crica

[sjmc]

Less competition on class loot and equal chances to gain any other loot. It's less unpredictable and it allows you to gear your character first. If there are four different classes then all of them get 100% on their class gear. Everybody benefits. Your groups have fair chances, but it's decided by random roll on everything that will drop. Not something I like. I simply want bigger chances on my class loot than compete with random number of players selecting random loot choices. It's that simple. Same goal but different ways.

The flaw with this is that it assumes everyone wants class gear equally. However, with the introduction of orange gear, many people gear themselves up with a set of orange gear and don't change it. Therefore they might not want any of the class gear that drops. The only things they might need are things for other classes (or the rare piece of orange gear that will replace something in their long-term outfit).

 

I am happy to give up a 100% chance on my class gear because I don't really need most of it (except possibly for mods in orange gear). Your agreeing to not roll on my class gear that I don't want so that I won't roll on your class gear that I do want doesn't really help me at all.

 

If I need gear for my companion, I am happy to have a less than 100% chance to win it. But 0% percent (trooper presses need, I press greed), doesn't seem like the right number to me.

 

Orange gear and companions have added new dynamics so that not everyone will have exactly the same priorities -- unlike previous games where stat increases on your main character would be the only thing that counted.

Edited February 1, 2012 by sjmc

[sjmc]

Did you read the question I asked? Are you going to roll need on orange sage gear? You said yes.

If he can equip it, then it isn't something that he can't equip.

[Crash-X]

Yes, everyone in the group is free to roll Need on anything they CAN and WILL equip since they helped run the FP.

 

You don't want to be able to roll Need on anything you CAN and WILL equip?

 

Ok, want to join and NOT be allowed to roll Need on anything you CAN an WILL equip then?

 

/confused

 

I posed you this question to which you said yes.

 

Would you roll need on an orange piece of Sage gear when there is clearly one sage in your group...

 

You said 'Yes...' then went on about how you would roll need on a item you can use and equip...so reading your recent response the answer you should have said should have been something like this "No, since I can't wear that piece of gear and it's not for my class I would not roll need on it."

[Crash-X]

If he can equip it, then it isn't something that he can't equip.

 

Except in that case he can't equip the gear...

[sjmc]

Would you roll need on an orange piece of Sage gear when there is clearly one sage in your group...

Whether or not there is a sage in the group, if a sage-only (says "sage only") piece drops, nobody but sages should roll need. Because it is a vendor and/or GTN item if you aren't a sage.

 

If it doesn't say "sage only" then anyone that can wear that type of armor can equip it.

[crica]

I posed you this question to which you said yes.

 

Would you roll need on an orange piece of Sage gear when there is clearly one sage in your group...

 

You said 'Yes...' then went on about how you would roll need on a item you can use and equip...so reading your recent response the answer you should have said should have been something like this "No, since I can't wear that piece of gear and it's not for my class I would not roll need on it."

 

My response was and still is "I roll Need for ANY gear I both CAN and WILL equip."

 

If you would like me to help you run a FP, then I want to be able to roll Need for ANY gear that I both CAN and WILL equip.

 

There is no reason for me to help run a FP that does not offer me equal chance to win the fruits of my labor that I both CAN and WILL equip.

 

Is that more clear for you?

 

It is NOT possible for me, as a non-sage, to equip an item that has "sage-only" printed on it, so no, I would NOT roll Need for it.

Edited February 1, 2012 by crica

[Maccaroth]

Kresharth - We both know what I mean.

 

Since don't need anymore class loot, there is no reason for me to join your group.

That's fine. Everyone should group with people who have common goals.

 

Is there anything else you want to offer me? Perhaps equal chance to win the gear I DO need?

Sometimes I run groups only to see group content (or finish a quest) and I can come to an agreement with the team about our loot rules. Current system is very flexible and communicative group should be fine. I don't need my class items now - for example - so I think we could group together and understand each other quite well. I think that in time people will learn to change their loot rules to fit them the best way possible.

 

The flaw with this is that it assumes everyone wants class gear equally. However, with the introduction of orange gear, many people gear themselves up with a set of orange gear and don't change it. Therefore they might not want any of the class gear that drops. The only things they might need are things for other classes (or the rare piece of orange gear that will replace something in their long-term outfit).

There is no flaw if we follow social contract for its efficiency. Because its primary role is to gear your character which make you better asset to the group. It's less suited when you are looking for specific orange items (I hunted down my own for quite a long time, but it was able either to buy parts or get it for commendations, so I know it from personal experience), but it's up to you to join group whose purposes serve you better.

[Crash-X]

My response was and still is "I roll Need for ANY gear I CAN and WILL equip."

 

If you would like me to help you run a FP, then I want to be able to roll Need for ANY gear that I both CAN and WILL equip.

 

There is no reason for me to help run a FP that does not offer me equal chance to win the fruits of my labor that I both CAN and WILL equip.

 

Is that more clear for you?

 

If that is so then you and I should not be arguing at all.

 

As I have said, My problem is with people who roll need on gear that they cannot use themselves. This is very class specific gear that is says "Only this class can use..." which is usually the gear that drops from bosses in FPs.

[sjmc]

There is no flaw if we follow social contract for its efficiency. Because its primary role is to gear your character which make you better asset to the group.

This assumes that everyone's primary goal is to become a better asset to the group. While this is a laudable objective, in a pickup group you might/probably will not see the others in this group again until you have outleveled the loot in question.

 

If someone is not going to be doing flashpoints after this group disbands, becoming a "better asset to the group" doesn't help anyone. Should they be disqualified from rolling need on anything at all?

 

I have no objection to your improving your character, but you have no greater right to improve your character than I have to improve mine. I might think your character wears ugly gear, but that is your choice, not mine.

 

EDIT: I think the "improves your contribution to the group" made a lot of sense a few years ago (in previous games) when you had to group to progress your character. You needed to get gear to be able to complete the next group quest. In SWTOR, many people spend a great deal of their time soloing as well as grouping so legitimately have different upgrade priorities beyond "contribution to the group"

Edited February 1, 2012 by sjmc

[Maccaroth]

If someone is not going to be doing flashpoints after this group disbands, becoming a "better asset to the group" doesn't help anyone. Should they be disqualified from rolling need on anything at all?

You are better asset to the group when you improve your primary stats. It helps you in the first place. Benefit for the group because of this is another advantage. As long as you do flashpoint with your team and do what team is fine with (no matter what rules said team has) you have your place in the loot.

 

I have no objection to your improving your character, but you have no greater right to improve your character than I have to improve mine. I might think your character wears ugly gear, but that is your choice, not mine.

As I said - it is the matter of perspective which result in different approach to the subject. If you want to be able to roll on any gear (even if just for its look) then team with the people who won't mind or share your goals. Nobody can enforce on you to follow social contract but they can choose not to group with you and they have same right to do so as you have.

[Crash-X]

This assumes that everyone's primary goal is to become a better asset to the group. While this is a laudable objective, in a pickup group you might/probably will not see the others in this group again until you have outleveled the loot in question.

 

If someone is not going to be doing flashpoints after this group disbands, becoming a "better asset to the group" doesn't help anyone. Should they be disqualified from rolling need on anything at all?

 

I have no objection to your improving your character, but you have no greater right to improve your character than I have to improve mine. I might think your character wears ugly gear, but that is your choice, not mine.

 

EDIT: I think the "improves your contribution to the group" made a lot of sense a few years ago (in previous games) when you had to group to progress your character. You needed to get gear to be able to complete the next group quest. In SWTOR, many people spend a great deal of their time soloing as well as grouping so legitimately have different upgrade priorities beyond "contribution to the group"

 

Here is the main problem I have with needing for companions.

 

Everyone gets 5 of them, there is a lot of stuff you can claim to need for because of your companion. In the end if everyone needed for their companions I bet the majority of rolls will fall to need.

 

For me it is always about "Can my character actually use this item?" if yes then "Is this item an upgrade?" If yes to both then I will need. I'll greed everything else and see where it fits later, some of it is selling material and some of it is companion stuff.

 

But people can do just fine leveling in this game using the gear they can get from their quest rewards for companions if they value gear on their companions so much.

 

To me Bioware is missing a big opportunity to make the end-game fun for solo players. If I was pitching ideas to them (and I've said this before) I'd make it so end-game solo quest rewards the best gear for companions.

[sjmc]

Nobody can enforce on you to follow social contract but they can choose not to group with you and they have same right to do so as you have.

If you state the terms of the social contract that you follow at the start of the group, I will either agree or leave. If I agree, I will follow the terms. (or everyone in the group can say they disagree and you could leave).

 

If noone says anything and they have a problem with how someone rolls, they can say something at the time. Future rolls will come under what ever rules are agreed to at that time and those who don't like it can leave.

 

With nothing being said, I will assume that when people press need, that they have a need for the item. If they need on everything and I see the items on the GTN later, I may note that person's name for future reference. Since I am not very considerate and respectful of other players, I probably would not go on general chat and denounce him as a loot thief (which from reading this thread is apparently is what respectful people do).