Expertise: The root of all evil

[dannythefool]

Why do lvl 49's have a ridiculous advantage over level 10's? It's basically the same problem. The answer is: because at the extremes of any bracket of any game, there will always be lower tiered players.

 

Right... but the fresh level 10 who can just start doing warzones will not have to go through weeks of "hell" in order to compete. Even if he only does PVP, he'll level up from that to at least somewhere in the twenties or thirties in one week. Even during that time, he can still be useful and feel like he's making a difference, because he's not going to face teams of geared level 49 players - those will automatically fall out of the bracket by the same mechanic. And he will have no trouble at all completing his PVP dailies regardless of any faction imbalance.

 

In other words, the problem simply doesn't exist in the 10-49 bracket. That's why hitting 50 is such a bump. Before 50 it's fun most of the time. If it's not do one day of PVE and it's fun again. Then you hit 50, and abandon all hope of having fun for a few weeks.

 

You think two weeks is bad ... try playing wow without honour gear, or try and do an arena. The RIFT grind will take at least 1 month before you're even competitive.

 

Yeah, I played both WoW and Rift. That doesn't mean I can't wonder why game designers aren't designing games to be fun all the time.

Edited January 30, 2012 by dannythefool

[Orangerascal]

Right... but the fresh level 10 who can just start doing warzones will not have to go through weeks of "hell" in order to compete. Even if he only does PVP, he'll level up from that to at least somewhere in the twenties or thirties in one week. Even during that time, he can still be a useful and feel like he's making a difference, because he's not going to face teams of geared level 49 players - those will automatically fall out of the bracket by the same mechanic. And he will have no trouble at all completing his PVP dailies regardless of any faction imbalance.

 

In other words, the problem simply doesn't exist in the 10-49 bracket.

 

Yeah, I played both WoW and Rift. That doesn't mean I can't wonder why game designers

aren't designing games to be fun all the time.

 

This makes no sense. Are you saying people who pvp for bags suddenly get all 15 gear slots after the 2-3 weeks of hell? Like the 10-49 bracket it's a chronic migration. Also there is also the PVE option for people that don't like the 3 weeks of hell as pve items are just as good for pvp (because of their higher stats making up for expertise deficiencies)

 

If you have a better system. Send your CV to either Bioware, Trion and Blizzard and apply for a job

Edited January 30, 2012 by Orangerascal

[DarylMusashi]

Whoah chill there McFly. I know you're tired of being face-rolled by those unskilled VR 72's because of your gear, but you really need to calm down. Maybe see a psychiatrist or something.

 

If you have a better system. Send your CV to either Bioware, Trion and Blizzard and apply for a job

 

Gotta resort to insulting him now that he cornered you with logic? That means you lost the debate.

[dannythefool]

Whoah chill there McFly. I know you're tired of being face-rolled by those unskilled VR 72's because of your gear, but you really need to calm down.

 

Actually, I'm not. I've had a level 50 for a while so I'm good on that front. I'm still playing in the 10-49 bracket because I think it's a better use of my time than grinding more gear, but like I said, there is no problem in that bracket.

 

If you have a better system. Send your CV to either Bioware, Trion and Blizzard and apply for a job

 

I don't know about Trion but EA or Blizzard could just go and buy CCP.

[Orangerascal]

Gotta resort to insulting him now that he cornered you with logic? That means you lost the debate.

 

No I told him to calm down, because he was getting defensive. I've edited my post too.

 

But good job adding 0 to this thread. At least I try to explain some of the design decisions and why it sucks to be at the start of any bracket.

[Husanak]

Whoah chill there McFly. I know you're tired of being face-rolled by those unskilled VR 72's because of your gear, but you really need to calm down. Maybe see a psychiatrist or something.

 

If you have a better system. Send your CV to either Bioware, Trion and Blizzard and apply for a job

 

As annoyed as some people may be there is good reason... there is also good reason why I don't think any honesty serious pvp players play games from the above mentioned devs.

 

Wow Rift and now Tor all have the same flawed gear grind pvp. Years from now people will not remember fondly the pvp in any of those games. Honestly its extremely disappointing that Bio has fallen into the same pvp stat trap. Don't worry though Biff you can always head to a lowbie planet and beat on people there if Bio comes too their senses and fixes the issue. (unlikely I know)

[Razot]

Whoah chill there McFly. I know you're tired of being face-rolled by those unskilled VR 72's because of your gear, but you really need to calm down. Maybe see a psychiatrist or something.

 

If you have a better system. Send your CV to either Bioware, Trion and Blizzard and apply for a job

 

BTW Trion is trying to work past the Valor thing now.As PVP is all but dead they are trying to make a smoother transition into PVP for ungeared players...

[Orangerascal]

Actually, I'm not. I've had a level 50 for a while so I'm good on that front. I'm still playing in the 10-49 bracket because I think it's a better use of my time than grinding more gear, but like I said, there is no problem in that bracket.

 

Of course not, there is no problem with the system when you're on top of the bracket .

 

 

I don't know about Trion but EA or Blizzard could just go and buy CCP.

 

I have no idea who CCP is.

[Husanak]

BTW Trion is trying to work past the Valor thing now.As PVP is all but dead they are trying to make a smoother transition into PVP for ungeared players...

 

Honesty if they dumped the dumb stat... there pvp would be pretty darn tempt... em I mean good. lol

Edited January 30, 2012 by Husanak

[Husanak]

 

I have no idea who CCP is.

 

EvE online... the only true PvP game in any sort of real existence sadly.

[dannythefool]

Of course not, there is no problem with the system when you're on top of the bracket .

 

Speak for yourself

 

My most played character just reached 36 (leveled through warzones from 20 or so, it's a bit slow that way).

[Razot]

I have no idea who CCP is.

 

 

This is very obvious!

[Orangerascal]

As annoyed as some people may be there is good reason... there is also good reason why I don't think any honesty serious pvp players play games from the above mentioned devs.

 

Wow Rift and now Tor all have the same flawed gear grind pvp. Years from now people will not remember fondly the pvp in any of those games. Honestly its extremely disappointing that Bio has fallen into the same pvp stat trap. Don't worry though Biff you can always head to a lowbie planet and beat on people there if Bio comes too their senses and fixes the issue. (unlikely I know)

 

Gear grinds in MMO's .... no way. What do you think will happen when the gear grind stops? I'll give you a hint it rhymes with uninscribe.

 

Do really think people will play the same 3 warfronts over and over and over again? In fact many competitive guilds have already left. Rated warfronts is the only things keeping some people here.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Orangerascal]

EvE online... the only true PvP game in any sort of real existence sadly.

 

DO you really think eve pvp is balanced for a new player? Try being a new player with none of the skills, do not buy ISK. Go to a 0.0 zone and let's see how you fair.

 

It'll take a month just to have enough skills necessary to fly a worthy ship . Seriously I probably would not use them as an example for a new player friendly game.

 

 

This is very obvious!

 

Oh I like the cheap shot, now go back under the bridge.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Razot]

Full battlemaster is about 13% if I'm correct. I'm running with almost 12% with no battlemaster gear.

 

If you think fresh 50 are having such a hard time on warzones, well go to max lvl in WoW and go to battleground. 70% hp hits guaranteed.

 

 

Why people can't you understand that the point of expertise is to distinguish pvp gear from pve gear. So people who farm warzones can't go to hrdmode operations and people from operations do not rock on warzones. Is this really that hard to get?

 

On a sidenote - I rolled out recently in my pve gear to check some warzones. It is quite decent and to be honest i forgot to switch to pvp gear at the start but i run through like 7 warzones. PvP consumable + cooldowns + stim and i was quite easy killing people - got 6-9 medals each warzone.

 

Next time I'll fraps it and throw out to youtube so i can just post a movie under topics like this one.

 

 

With Expertise in game where exactly do think will happen with TOR in a few years with raid gear getting better and better with content updates..

Its not bad now but lets say a year T4 and T5 comes out maybe even T6,, sure being a BM will not be bad grind but a fresh 50 will just say screw it... and PVP will be nothing more but just a few people and will all but die..

[dannythefool]

EvE online... the only true PvP game in any sort of real existence sadly.

 

Ok, now I kind of feel like I have to elaborate on why I brought CCP into the topic.

 

EVE Online has PVP that is like this:

- While do you do gain character skills over time, you can quickly get a reasonable set of skills together to be competitive in a frigate. Yeah other players will be flying battleships but good luck to them trying to hit your frigate. They can likely also fly frigates well but they will not have a huge mechanical advantage, just more experience. But frigates are cheap, so it's easy to get that experience yourself.

 

- There is no gear grind. Most equipment, from spaceship to the cannons you put on it to the last bit of ammo, is crafted. Since spaceships do blow up and, even when you can loot your wreck, half of the equipment will also have blown up; there is no ultimate gear to grind up to for weeks and if there were, people would be very reluctant to put them on anything but the most advanced ships (which have very specific roles in combat and aren't brought out unless you have a very good reason). There are some rare dropped modules - but for everyday pvp, people use normal crafted stuff.

 

- Instead of a gear/valor/whatever grind, PVP objectives go all the way up from simple piracy for monetary gains to holding space, as in actually taking control of a system, putting up space stations there or taking over existing ones, putting up defensive systems like missile batteries, or maybe modules that help your corporation/alliance's own crafters and miners and traders. You don't grind for your BM equip and then you're done; you're constantly defending what you own, losing and gaining along the way.

 

Yes EVE has its flaws too in PVP, but at no point in your progression will you be forced to let yourself be facerolled by people who started grinding gear a month before you.

 

And yes, EVE is not generally new player friendly. It is however friendly towards new players who are quick to learn. It's decidedly unfriendly towards people who would prefer easymode. That has little to do with the PVP system though. It's just not an easy game.

Edited January 30, 2012 by dannythefool

[Husanak]

DO you really think eve pvp is balanced for a new player? Try being a new player with none of the skills, do not buy ISK. Go to a 0.0 zone and let's see how you fair.

 

It'll take a month just to have enough skills necessary to fly a worthy ship . Seriously I probably would not use them as an example for a new player friendly game.

 

I came too eve late... and ya its fine. No you don't go and fly around a 0.0 in day 1 unless you want to blow up.

 

However ya you can train skills at the same rate as everyone else... and after a month as you mentioned... you will have the EXACT same skill in the base ships as people that have been playing 6 years.

 

Its not 10 mil subs or something... but the fact that there sub numbers have been stable since what 2003. Yes I think Bio would have been better off replicating more of that type of game system instead of the Wow system... in as far as PvP is concerned.

[Orangerascal]

With Expertise in game where exactly do think will happen with TOR in a few years with raid gear getting better and better with content updates..

Its not bad now but lets say a year T4 and T5 comes out maybe even T6,, sure being a BM will not be bad grind but a fresh 50 will just say screw it... and PVP will be nothing more but just a few people and will all but die..

 

Except your describing the problem every mmo has had. Gear progression causes gear disparity .

 

The same players in T4 and T5 raid gear will faceroll new level 50's just the same. This has nothing to do with the expertise stat.

[Aochijz]

Full battlemaster is about 13% if I'm correct. I'm running with almost 12% with no battlemaster gear.

 

If you think fresh 50 are having such a hard time on warzones, well go to max lvl in WoW and go to battleground. 70% hp hits guaranteed.

 

 

Why people can't you understand that the point of expertise is to distinguish pvp gear from pve gear. So people who farm warzones can't go to hrdmode operations and people from operations do not rock on warzones. Is this really that hard to get?

 

On a sidenote - I rolled out recently in my pve gear to check some warzones. It is quite decent and to be honest i forgot to switch to pvp gear at the start but i run through like 7 warzones. PvP consumable + cooldowns + stim and i was quite easy killing people - got 6-9 medals each warzone.

 

Next time I'll fraps it and throw out to youtube so i can just post a movie under topics like this one.

 

Totally agree with you here, i hit 50 2 weeks ago, the first week was a bit hard as everyone had better gear than me so i was a easy target, but theres ways around it with some skill and some oranges you get there eventually.

On the side note, yes to come WoW with a fresh 85 and you will say Hello to my 35k/45k crits on my rogue cause im a baws and i have amazing gear!

[dannythefool]

Except your describing the problem every mmo has had. Gear progression causes gear disparity .

 

Well, except not every MMO has had it. Quite a few of the early MMOs had partial or full loot in PVP. That helps a lot with gear progression, but doesn't work very well when there are no other objectives that you could do PVP for.

[Razot]

DO you really think eve pvp is balanced for a new player? Try being a new player with none of the skills, do not buy ISK. Go to a 0.0 zone and let's see how you fair.

 

It'll take a month just to have enough skills necessary to fly a worthy ship . Seriously I probably would not use them as an example for a new player friendly game.

 

 

 

 

Oh I like the cheap shot, now go back under the bridge.

 

I dont know man goons did pretty well with Rifters back in the day. I moved out to 0,0 with 1 million SP about 6 years ago.

 

You can be in a dictor or inty in no time or a scout,, all these are very good for roams and fleet ops. I was going pew pew in my T 1 fitted Thorax, stabber. Its ok brah all the bears need to make excuses not go to 0,0 and i have heard them all..

[fest]

So then add some stat like expertise to PvE. I never PvE, so I couldn't care less. If the sets for PvP and PvE were equal, so be it. It's the PvE'ers that complain about that sort of thing.

 

Add some new stat -- let's call it +balls. If you have 0 +balls, you get owned by mobs big time. If you have 1000 +balls, they can't crit you and you're more likely to crit them. Problem solved. PvP is still competitive and PvE'ers can stop complaining about PvP gear. Meanwhile, top PvE gear in the PvP world will be just as good as the top PvP gear, meaning that the end result is based upon skill -- not whoever has the most expertise.

 

Why is it okay for PvE'rs who have been PvE'ing for a long time to have an advantage over PvE'rs who have been PvE'ing for a short time but its not okay for the same thing in PvP? Hypocrite much?

[Husanak]

Except your describing the problem every mmo has had. Gear progression causes gear disparity .

 

The same players in T4 and T5 raid gear will faceroll new level 50's just the same. This has nothing to do with the expertise stat.

 

Of course it does...

 

If 6 months from now Bio releases the new uber hard raid of the droids... and they release New Raid gear with level 62 mods in it... they will HAVE to release new PvP gear with equal amounts of Expertise too keep the raid gear out of PvP. And there ya go... now new players get to grind for a month just to get the previous tiers gear... then another few weeks too catch up again... and it continues.

 

Really every company that has a PvP stat has been trying to find away to get rid of the darn thing. Its bad for their pocket books long term. Long time players get bored at some point... and new players become less and less likely too grind out a catch up set of gear. Then the devs get to make hard choices too fix the system (as Triton is going through)... or they just slow pvp development and focus on their PvE subs.

 

Bio should... come up with their own way to fix the problem we all see down the road. No right now getting geared up isn't the worst experience known to man. (even if its not fun) Of course down the line the road too an average set will get longer and longer and pvp will likely die off.

[Gokki]

Of course not, there is no problem with the system when you're on top of the bracket .

 

 

 

 

I have no idea who CCP is.

 

 

Let me google that for you:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ccp

[Razot]

Of course it does...

 

If 6 months from now Bio releases the new uber hard raid of the droids... and they release New Raid gear with level 62 mods in it... they will HAVE to release new PvP gear with equal amounts of Expertise too keep the raid gear out of PvP. And there ya go... now new players get to grind for a month just to get the previous tiers gear... then another few weeks too catch up again... and it continues.

 

Really every company that has a PvP stat has been trying to find away to get rid of the darn thing. Its bad for their pocket books long term. Long time players get bored at some point... and new players become less and less likely too grind out a catch up set of gear. Then the devs get to make hard choices too fix the system (as Triton is going through)... or they just slow pvp development and focus on their PvE subs.

 

Bio should... come up with their own way to fix the problem we all see down the road. No right now getting geared up isn't the worst experience known to man. (even if its not fun) Of course down the line the road too an average set will get longer and longer and pvp will likely die off.

 

This will happen and no more food supply!