The Klingon Defence Forces Vs The Imperial Fleet

[jarjarloves]

1. The Klingon Empire in Star Trek is a type 2 civilization. The Empire in Star Wars is a type 3 Civilization. In nearly all respects Star Wars has superior technology.

 

2. Star Destroyers also have around 60 Turbo Laser and Ion Canons. They also do an entire order of magnitude more damage. Star Trek weapon damage output is measured in Kilojules. The damage done by Star Wars Capiltal Ship weapons in the Empire era are measured in Megajules.

 

3. Slave 1, Boba Feet's ship, has more destructive firepower than any Enterprise or Voyager era ship.

 

4. The Imperial Fleet is far larger than the Klingon Emire's fleet. For every Bird of Prey the Klingon's actually have, the Empire has at least 10 Star Destroyers.

 

5. The Empire uses it's fleet to control an entire galaxy with an iron fist. The Klingon's have trouble fighting a Federation of smillar size, with a smaller fleet, with fewer tactical capabilities than they do.

 

6. Crew complements are also heavily in favor of the Empire. Most Klingon Ships would be considered Corvette class ships in Star Wars. The average bird of prey has fewer than 100 Klingon's on board. The Average Star Destroyer crew of around 1,200 + an entire Garrison of Imperial Stormtroopers, up to 15,000. In the event of any boarding action, the Empire has the overwhelming advantage in man power.

 

7. Star Destroyers also have: They also have 4 or 5 Squadrons of 12 TIE Fighters, 1 or 2 Squadrons of TIE bombers, and maybe 1 Squadron of TIE Interceptors. And they can house a total of 6 squadrons.

 

Honestly, the entire Imperial Fleet is overkill for killing something like the Klingon Empire. Heck I would go so far as to say the Rebel fleet in Empire Strikes back would be sufficient to get the job done. Darth Vader's fleet in Empire Strikes Back would be more than sufficient also.

 

yeah you might want to go back a bit but I already disproved the Star Wars weapons numbers beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

The movies clearly show the Star Wars Weapons (espeiclaly the Star Destroyers) not firing megaton weapons.

[rainbow]

Err... even a modern tank can fire a "MegaJoules" weapon. A 120 mm tungsten carbide or uranium shell from a M1 or Leopard 2 tank (6 kg at 2000 m/s muzzle velocity) has a kinetic energy of rougly 12 MegaJoules (1/2 * 6 kg * 2000 m/s * 2000 m/s = 12'000'000 J). Edited February 9, 2012 by rainbow

[jarjarloves]

Err... even a modern tank can fire a "MegaJoules" weapon. A 120 mm tungsten carbide or uranium shell from a M1 or Leopard 2 tank (6 kg at 2000 m/s muzzle velocity) has a kinetic energy of rougly 12 MegaJoules (1/2 * 6 kg * 2000 m/s * 2000 m/s = 12'000'000 J).

Megajoules not megaton big difference between the two

[rainbow]

Megajoules not megaton big difference between the two

 

Read the post you quoted... it states something about KiloJoules (Energy of any modern day assault rifle is in that category) and MegaJoules (see my tank shell example). I do know the difference between Joule and ton TNT equivalent which is roughly 4 TeraJoules.

Edited February 9, 2012 by rainbow

[jarjarloves]

Read the post you quoted... it states something about KiloJoules (Energy of any modern day assault rifle is in that category) and MegaJoules (see my tank shell example). I do know the difference between Joule and ton TNT equivalent which is roughly 4 TeraJoules.

 

My fault i misread his post. Even then he is wrong. From just a quick glance about Star Trek weapons (i'm not that familer with Star Trek) they say they have several megaton torpedoes.

 

 

The Star Wars guns are not capable of firing weapons that powerful (except for the death star)

 

Unless some how a blaster rifle is just as powerful as Darth Vaders Tie Advanced.

 

 

Just like his comment about Slave 1 being really powerful is just wrong.

Edited February 9, 2012 by jarjarloves

[thecordler]

honestly this debate is tiresome, as Star wars is without limits and star trek is all about limitation.

 

The federation's main goal is the safe regulation of technology, and stunts itself and all others due to this. The klingons have rarely made anything, they base all their tech from Reverse engineered tech they take from defeated foes, and haven't actually innovated any of their technologies.

 

However Star trek has moments that violate their own specs, such as phasers capable of destroying planetoids in one episode and unable to in another.

 

A tractorbeam that can literally rip planets apart from the core, yet never used on starships as offensive weapons.

 

Torpedoes that can have safeties removed to blow up entire planets because of some federation sanction against some omega particle.

 

Honestly star trek suffers from a crutch it places on itself, do you go with official data printed or what is seen on screen and in novels that totally don't jive with the numbers they limit themselves to.

 

In star trek the federation has a warehouse of weapons and projects that could literally alter and destroy the known galaxy.

 

Case in point, they have shields that can enter into the dense parts of a sun, or actually probes that survive super novas.

 

Are we going to use these or the limits of databooks, hence i find the whole debate laughable because the Klingons unlike the federation will resort to safeties being off if faced witha n enemy that presents to their view extinction for them.

 

i can list tech on both sides that are game changers but lets be honest, the fact is star trek loses due to it's complete discrepancy on it's own lore. the Data and hard numbers never match what is seen on screen or within a novella. where Star wars has been smart and never tried to give a numerical science value on anything they have in order to just say they can do it.

 

i'm a big fan of both, and honestly can tell you it's comparing apple to oranges.

[jarjarloves]

can't really comment on Star Trek but for Star Wars some of the EU stuff has tried to give numbers to their weapons but the way the star Wars canon works is if it doesn't agree with whats in the movies then it's not canon.

 

So since in the movies we see Darth Vaders Tie Advanced blasters are only slightly more powerful then a blaster rifle and Jango Fetts blasters barely dent Obi Wans ship and so on we get a good idea of how powerful or how not powerful the Star Wars weapons are.

 

 

The one scene fanboys love to mention is a SD blasting asteroids left and right with 1 shot. They use that as a gauge which is inaccurate. Because we see the same asteroid explosion when it hits the bridge of a Star Destroyer which completely destroys it.

 

So it's not the weapons that caused the huge explosion but the asteroid itself.

 

Sort of like if I fire a gun into a building full of TNT and it blows up I wouldn't go around saying the gun is where the explosive force came from.

[abishe]

oke, we all talking crap now here anyway.

 

so Star wars travel takes several Hours, so they have more tech?

 

what about Babylon 5?

Dr. Elizabeth Trent claimed in 3e Space Traveling from 1 point in space to a other point in space was technological posable, with the hubris portal.

 

so why do i bring this up?, first Star wars is a fantasy story write.

with zero Sci-Fi elements.

 

lasers with insane amount of Energy output, yet nobody ever get completely Annihilated by a Hit, serious. (so the Writer pulled some **** out of his pen, and thought yea man this looks like a cool number)

 

so, about travel in Starwars, ships really do go fast.

yet it give me a impression it works on basic Laws, of going faster then Light (unlike Hubris) it is to slow for a third" space travel. yet it go's faster then warp 10?, conflict again. and tells me, SW is pure fantasy.

 

Death star, have the Power to Dust a Planet?, again unbearable Energy Output.

it must have a Energy Output of a Star (put fortunately it's only as big as a "moon"

readable to assure around ower moon.

 

Second

Even Star Trek is massive Fantasy, it still have some logical Elements, and Laws.

for instance nothing go's Faster then warp 10, (compatible with B5 or any other SCI Fi movie)

 

Reasonable Energy Output from Weapons, comparable to Energy that can be created on a spaceship.

 

Star wars lacks Transporters, also like to point out, in starwars they use something called a Deflection shield. (witch like the word sugest it deflect) and do not have a shield Rotation.

 

any Spaceship in Startrek can easily beam Torpedo on board inside the Bridge and disable the ship, or teleport the entire crew into space.

[mecher]

 

Star wars lacks Transporters, also like to point out, in starwars they use something called a Deflection shield. (witch like the word sugest it deflect) and do not have a shield Rotation.

 

 

WRONG! Suggest playing the game before talking about the lore backing it up.

[abishe]

WRONG! Suggest playing the game before talking about the lore backing it up.

 

Wrong, Suggest you, suggestion a little more specific before putting suggestions without suggestion backup.

 

so I really suggest you blah blah blah.

and put your mouth where your money is.

deflector=is not a shield, and it not have a shield rotation.

[zaltanus]

Everyone's wrong. Vader shouts "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" and Kirk shouts "KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN" and both fictional universes explode.

[mecher]

Wrong, Suggest you, suggestion a little more specific before putting suggestions without suggestion backup.

 

so I really suggest you blah blah blah.

and put your mouth where your money is.

deflector=is not a shield, and it not have a shield rotation.

 

Or you could play the game?

 

Nah too much for a like yourself.

[Aximand]

can't really comment on Star Trek but for Star Wars some of the EU stuff has tried to give numbers to their weapons but the way the star Wars canon works is if it doesn't agree with whats in the movies then it's not canon.

 

So since in the movies we see Darth Vaders Tie Advanced blasters are only slightly more powerful then a blaster rifle and Jango Fetts blasters barely dent Obi Wans ship and so on we get a good idea of how powerful or how not powerful the Star Wars weapons are.

 

 

The one scene fanboys love to mention is a SD blasting asteroids left and right with 1 shot. They use that as a gauge which is inaccurate. Because we see the same asteroid explosion when it hits the bridge of a Star Destroyer which completely destroys it.

 

So it's not the weapons that caused the huge explosion but the asteroid itself.

 

Sort of like if I fire a gun into a building full of TNT and it blows up I wouldn't go around saying the gun is where the explosive force came from.

 

The way Star Wars Canon works is that if the movies directly contradict something in the EU, then its not canon. There's a difference and I think you're looking at Canon incorrectly.

 

Vague trailed off sentences by Han Solo do not define the size of the Imperial Navy, the briefing in Hope is too vague to determine what fleet Crix Madine was talking about (Imperial, Republic, Alliance, which one?). Novel numbers for both ships and firepower are not directly contradicted by the movies, therefore they are Canon.

 

(Was it Cracken or Crix in ANH?)

Edited February 10, 2012 by Aximand

[Wolfninjajedi]

The way Star Wars Canon works is that if the movies directly contradict something in the EU, then its not canon. There's a difference and I think you're looking at Canon incorrectly.

 

Vague trailed off sentences by Han Solo do not define the size of the Imperial Navy, the briefing in Hope is too vague to determine what fleet Crix Madine was talking about (Imperial, Republic, Alliance, which one?). Novel numbers for both ships and firepower are not directly contradicted by the movies, therefore they are Canon.

 

Madine? You mean Jan Dodonna.

[Aximand]

Madine? You mean Jan Dodonna.

 

Yes! That one. God I can never get them straight.

[jarjarloves]

The way Star Wars Canon works is that if the movies directly contradict something in the EU, then its not canon. There's a difference and I think you're looking at Canon incorrectly.

 

Vague trailed off sentences by Han Solo do not define the size of the Imperial Navy, the briefing in Hope is too vague to determine what fleet Crix Madine was talking about (Imperial, Republic, Alliance, which one?). Novel numbers for both ships and firepower are not directly contradicted by the movies, therefore they are Canon.

 

(Was it Cracken or Crix in ANH?)

 

it's not just Han Solo's statements it's everyones statements through out the movies and the number of ships we see.

 

Weapons however is clearly shown in the movies. A Tie Fighters blasters for example are only slightly stronger then that of a blaster rifle. We also see a tie fighters blaster are strong enough to destroy an x-wing and still be a threat to capital ships.

 

The books give Star Destroyers the ability to completely destroy a planet. We know this is not true from what we see in the movies.

[Aximand]

it's not just Han Solo's statements it's everyones statements through out the movies and the number of ships we see.

 

Weapons however is clearly shown in the movies. A Tie Fighters blasters for example are only slightly stronger then that of a blaster rifle. We also see a tie fighters blaster are strong enough to destroy an x-wing and still be a threat to capital ships.

 

The books give Star Destroyers the ability to completely destroy a planet. We know this is not true from what we see in the movies.

 

Navy =/= Fleet

 

Just so you know.

 

The TIE Fighter scene that you are talking about, you need to remember that X-Wings had shields, and TIE Fighters did not, the shots that hit Artoo could easily have been lessened in power by having to penetrate the X-Wing's shields before hand.

 

And there is no evidence in the movies that show that Impstar Deuce's could not, in fact, level a continent, so the C-Canon sources are valid.

[jarjarloves]

Navy =/= Fleet

 

Just so you know.

 

The TIE Fighter scene that you are talking about, you need to remember that X-Wings had shields, and TIE Fighters did not, the shots that hit Artoo could easily have been lessened in power by having to penetrate the X-Wing's shields before hand.

 

And there is no evidence in the movies that show that Impstar Deuce's could not, in fact, level a continent, so the C-Canon sources are valid.

 

"put your deflector shields on, double front"

 

Yes there is such evidence. We see the Star Destroyer blasting away at the Milenium Falcon with no shields. If they where powerful enough to destroy a planet then the Falcon would have been toast.

 

Even with full shields if the Star Destroyer hit the Milenium Falcon with weapons even close to being able to destroy a planet and the MF shields held then the MF would be sent spinning off into space. Think of a car accident if you have ever seen a car get T-boned it gets sent spinning off in another direction because of the force from the other car.

 

Or take a look at the Battle of Endor. We see many SD and other capital ships trading blows. If the weapons where so powerful when the ships shields where down they would have been completely wiped out.

[Aximand]

"put your deflector shields on, double front"

 

Yes there is such evidence. We see the Star Destroyer blasting away at the Milenium Falcon with no shields. If they where powerful enough to destroy a planet then the Falcon would have been toast.

 

Even with full shields if the Star Destroyer hit the Milenium Falcon with weapons even close to being able to destroy a planet and the MF shields held then the MF would be sent spinning off into space. Think of a car accident if you have ever seen a car get T-boned it gets sent spinning off in another direction because of the force from the other car.

 

Or take a look at the Battle of Endor. We see many SD and other capital ships trading blows. If the weapons where so powerful when the ships shields where down they would have been completely wiped out.

 

Does he not also say "Artoo, even out the deflector shields"?

 

They wanted to cripple, not destroy.

 

I don't believe we even see any hull shots taken outside of what the Death Star did.

[jarjarloves]

Does he not also say "Artoo, even out the deflector shields"?

 

They wanted to cripple, not destroy.

 

I don't believe we even see any hull shots taken outside of what the Death Star did.

 

he doesn't say that. He says Artoo can you lock down that stabilizer referring to well a stabilizer because his ship is shaking too much.

 

Even crippling though the guns can't fire with that much force as they are in space and they would send the MF spinning off.

 

 

edit: When you think about it it makes sense. Their power levels of weapons all with in a small band. Much like our weapons. We have guns, tanks, jets, battleships, and of course nukes. But they all fall into a small band of weapon damage.

 

If you had a Star Destroyer who's weapons could level planets and meanwhile those same weapons do minimal damage to other capital ships because of that ships armor. Wouldn't it make sense to make all your ground vehicles out of the same armor so they couldn't be harmed by any ground weapons?

Edited February 10, 2012 by jarjarloves

[Aximand]

he doesn't say that. He says Artoo can you lock down that stabilizer referring to well a stabilizer because his ship is shaking too much.

 

Even crippling though the guns can't fire with that much force as they are in space and they would send the MF spinning off.

 

 

edit: When you think about it it makes sense. Their power levels of weapons all with in a small band. Much like our weapons. We have guns, tanks, jets, battleships, and of course nukes. But they all fall into a small band of weapon damage.

 

If you had a Star Destroyer who's weapons could level planets and meanwhile those same weapons do minimal damage to other capital ships because of that ships armor. Wouldn't it make sense to make all your ground vehicles out of the same armor so they couldn't be harmed by any ground weapons?

 

Vader and his wingmen then sped down the trench after Luke, as Luke neared the exhaust port. At this critical moment, Luke heard the voice of Obi-Wan Kenobi telling him to "Use the Force" and "Let go", prompting Luke to deactivate his targeting computer. The Rebel technicians on Yavin 4 questioned this decision, but Luke reassured them that everything was all right. Vader, recognizing that the Force was strong with Luke, had by this time gotten near enough to get a partial weapon lock on his X-Wing, and took a potentially fatal shot. However, the blast only grazed R2, rendering him inoperative for the remainder of the mission but causing no apparent direct damage to Luke's fighter.

 

That answers that.

Read up on Turbolasers.

 

Its been stated that the Death Star was designed to breach planetary shields. And Cruiser grade Durasteel could have been exceptionally more effective than other grades, and there are different grades.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Aximand

[jarjarloves]

That answers that.

Read up on Turbolasers.

 

Its been stated that the Death Star was designed to breach planetary shields. And Cruiser grade Durasteel could have been exceptionally more effective than other grades, and there are different grades.

 

the passage you quoted contradicts what we see in the movie. In the movie it's a direct hit.

 

Yes I know death star breaches primary shields. I am not disputing the power of the Death star.

 

However if you had over 1000 ships that could all level a planet then they could create enough force easily equal to that of the Death star and that would also breach the planets shields.

 

Believe me I know everything there is about the EU turbo lasers and I assure you it contradicts what we see in the movies.

 

Even with different grades and the supposed building speeds and resources of the empire it would make more sense to equip all your heavy ground equipment with the higher grades as well.

[Aximand]

the passage you quoted contradicts what we see in the movie. In the movie it's a direct hit.

 

Yes I know death star breaches primary shields. I am not disputing the power of the Death star.

 

However if you had over 1000 ships that could all level a planet then they could create enough force easily equal to that of the Death star and that would also breach the planets shields.

 

Believe me I know everything there is about the EU turbo lasers and I assure you it contradicts what we see in the movies.

 

Even with different grades and the supposed building speeds and resources of the empire it would make more sense to equip all your heavy ground equipment with the higher grades as well.

 

Do you realize how much of a logistics nightmare it would be to bring in over a thousand Star Destroyers off of other duties such as policing actions and outright war, to lay siege to a planet for who knows how long in order to breach its planetary shields and then actually pound the planet into pieces? It could be argued that building the Death Star was actually more efficient.

[Wolfninjajedi]

So you know Jar, the movie novelizations are also G-canon so its not really contradicting anything its just putting in more information then what is seen on screen. That is of course if that passage is from the novelization.

[jarjarloves]

Do you realize how much of a logistics nightmare it would be to bring in over a thousand Star Destroyers off of other duties such as policing actions and outright war, to lay siege to a planet for who knows how long in order to breach its planetary shields and then actually pound the planet into pieces? It could be argued that building the Death Star was actually more efficient.

 

isn't the Star Fleet supposed to have over 25,000 starships? that would be a simple drop in the bucket.

 

The Point of the death star is that a super weapon like that had not been seen in this era's life time. IE people thought that with planetary shields they where safe from being destroyed.

 

This is something the EU has kind of messed up because with every book they have to up the anty but the idea was the Death Star has far more powerful they anything they had ever known and capable of doing untold destruction.

 

After ROTJ we end up getting like 50 death stars, the Sun Crusher and so on every book has to have a weapon that makes the Death Star look like a toy just so they can sell more books.

 

 

But thankfully George Lucas and Leeland Chee said everything after RotJ is not canon. Allthough I would have liked the Thrawn Triolgy to be canon.