Immortal Juggernaut Threat - Terrible and Scaling Worse

[jearle]

When I hit 50 it wasn't so bad, I could keep up with the basic geared DPS or fresh 50 undergeared DPS.

 

Now when all my DPS are in almost full Columi or higher it is becoming ridiculously difficult to hold threat.

 

I am running in mostly full Columi or equivalent gear.

Spec is the cookie cutter 31 / 10 / 0

My accuracy is ~ 110%

 

I have played a tank in every MMO since EQ, and multiple tank classes in some of them. I know about tanking and love the role.

Never have I had such a terrible experience with threat.

 

I realize that we are not suppose to be great at AoE tanking, I can accept that as long as single target threat would not be an issue.

 

I figured this was a known issue and would be addressed, however I am not seeing anything coming down the pipeline to address this issue.

 

I don't want abilities to do more damage and effect PvP, I simply want proper threat modifiers, possibly tied to talents to make tanking on a Jugg viable threat wise. With tight enrage timers being pretty much the mainstay difference between difficulty modes, it doesn't help to tell my DPS to wait 10 seconds to DPS.

 

It baffles me that this has not been addressed yet. There has to be a large population of Jugg tanks out there experiencing this.

 

I have not read a dev post on this issue, if anyone has a link to one, I would appreciate it.

 

Thanks.

[Konow]

Scaling gets better. But you're not going to get threat on every single mob in a 5+ pack.

They can wait for you to get in your 2 moves with decent threat, and you will still make the enrage timer, if they don't get aggro your healer has a less stressful task and can join in.

Also every single dps'er has a threat dump, they probably aren't using it.

[Gankstah]

I found your problem. It's right here:

I have played a tank in every MMO since EQ, and multiple tank classes in some of them. I know about tanking and love the role. Never have I had such a terrible experience with threat.

 

This is not WoW or any other MMO. This is TOR.

 

If you try to tank like you do in WoW or other similar MMOs you will fail. Your "experience" means absolutely jack. The mere fact that you're here on the forums whining about your failings as a tank is testament to my point.

 

Take a step back, examine what's going wrong and then fix it.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Gankstah

[tXHereticXt]

Even if Threat control was solid in this game as a MT, AE-taunting is difficult regardless of whose the tank. Best bet I found to work is just triggering the TS, let them gather, and then popping Smash, and/or add a few Sweeping Slashes. It's not guaranteed but I found it to semi work for a short moment.

[Spamnator]

I'm experiencing the same. Having played tanks throughout many games it was some kind of difficult to get used to the Jugger cause untli lvl 30 he's not even threatening at all, but leveling up to 50 getting used to all the abilities and skills I managed to tank flashpoints and operations fairly well. But now that we're hitting the Nightmares, my threat is just not enough. I'm still able to tank bosses, don't get me wrong, but it gets harder every single raid. The threat we make only scales with our abilities which scale with Strengh and the Soresu (hope the German and English-client don't have different names for the tank-stance). The dps scale way better with their dmg than a Jugger does with his threat which leads to threat-loss. Taunting whenever it's cooldown is over is not tanking. I know many peeps are talking crap here, flaming those who are adressing the problems. Most of them haven't even seen an operation in Nightmare or some outstanding dps, so don't bother just ignore them.

 

From what I know is that on my server most of the raid-guilds play with an assasin or bh main-tank while using the Jugger as an off-tank in 16-ops. This more and more leads frustrated Juggers because many times random-groups won't even take them into the flashpoints where really doesn't matter who tanks. I guess they'll balance the tanks with the next main patch in March. Until then we'll have to work with what is given

[Zellviren]

Even if Threat control was solid in this game as a MT, AE-taunting is difficult regardless of whose the tank. Best bet I found to work is just triggering the TS, let them gather, and then popping Smash, and/or add a few Sweeping Slashes. It's not guaranteed but I found it to semi work for a short moment.

 

There’s a misunderstanding here between the OP and his first couple of replies. It’s to be found in this comment by the OP:

 

”I realize that we are not suppose to be great at AoE tanking, I can accept that as long as single target threat would not be an issue”.

 

He’s not saying he’s struggling purely with AoE aggro, he’s also implying that single-target is no fun. Threat building in TOR is much the same as it is in WoW; you want to prioritise well and you want to maximise your globals.

 

If he’s doing this, and still having trouble, there’s a problem.

If he’s not doing this and having trouble, it’s best to advise.

 

I’d potentially agree that our threat front-loading isn’t that awesome, but Enrage and Force Charge practically gives you a full rage bar to start with, and Juggernauts are very sustainable after that.

 

In saying that, I’m in nowhere near the gear the OP is and have nowhere near the progression.

 

I could be totally wrong.

[BubblegumYeti]

I think the problem lies in you using your taunts. In TOR it looks like you should only use your taunts when you lose aggro, while in some other MMOs a taunt builds up aggro and you can use it every time it is off CD (and hence increasing your aggro).

 

Anyway... I have not had a lot of issues... also you don't HAVE to tank all the mobs. I usually don't bother with "normal" ones since the DPS slaughters them so fast. Only strong and elites should be tanked. On the strong ones I use cc to keep them out of the fight. Fear, stun and force choke are your friends. Even a nice throw takes them out for a few seconds and a force jumps stuns them for 3 seconds (in my case). Tanking on a Jugg is actually a lot of fun. I was a MT Warrior in WoW for many years and I find the range of skills I have to use a lot more fun in this game. I also seem to have much greater mobility. Also don't forget that some other games have aggro meters, so your dps guys know to stay under tank. In TOR they don't so they need to use their aggro dumps when needed.

 

In the end TOR is a different game and people need to play correctly. I would not worry about the Juggernaut tank. It is pretty good.

Edited January 30, 2012 by BubblegumYeti

[ImmortalAlien]

Making strategic use of your AOE abilities helps keep aggro. Smash is a good way to keep a huge group of mobs off of the rest of the party a little bit longer.

 

I find it easier to tank a group of melee mobs. It seems they're more likely to stick than ranged mobs, even if I'm in the face of a group of ranged mobs.

 

Some problems may also be in how your fellow teammates play. As a poster above said, everyone has a threat dump. A good plan for them would be to use it the moment after a huge burst or if some mobs are creeping off the tank. I have the hardest time keeping threat after a DPSer bursts. A kind reminder to them to not burst off the bat is good

 

Think the first mob in BT HM as a good example. It's a nice beef gate to "kindly" remind DPSers that HM is srs bznz. Can't tell ya how many times someone new to HM bursts off the bat there and dies several seconds later.

 

Ultimately, it's not about having your DPS teammate hold off for 10 whole seconds, it's more of them holding off their bursting or high damage abilities for a few seconds. They can still use their DOT, stuns, etc without issue. Their AOE's and high damage abilities, though, will pull mobs off you. It's usually best for them to use AOE's right when you use your own AOE taunt. As for their individual high damage abilities, it's best for them to use them on the same target. This is easier to achieve on teamspeak, yet simple marking helps them with that, though.

 

Also, be sure to use your high threat abilities first off. If you're like me an use backhand as a set up for pommel strike, use it on a strong rather than an elite first up.

 

And yeah, as the above poster says, your main goal should be to keep strong and above rank mobs off the rest of your party members. Normal mobs go down in a few seconds with ease.

 

Also, since you're not supposed to be the main contributor of damage, it's fine to alternate targets every few seconds. Mobs are more likely to stick to you so long as you keep attacking them, and there's a few second lag before they start looking for a new target. They definitely stick to you for a long time if no one else attacks them, so again, be sure to have the DPS focus on a single target rather than spread the damage and use all AOE's at once.

[HibashiraSakai]

Actually, depending on which class got aggro, even strong mobs don't need to be tanked. Even the squishy classes aren't that squishy in this game.

[Samurro]

Can you explain on which singel targets you get problems? Because I just don't belive you...

[Toogeloo]

Most classes here can take a beating for a few hits. The important thing is to make sure they aren't getting hit by the beefiest mo-fo out there.

 

When possible, CC the hardest hitting mobs. If that isn't possible, CC the next hardest hitting mobs and so on.

 

When tanking, tank the hardest hitting mob that isn't CCed. Throw out your AoE taunt, or some AoE attacks on the trash, but DPS should be burning the weakest enemies up to the to strongest enemies. More Enemies on screen means more damage going out. If the trash gets burned down, that is way less damage than if you try to kill the Champion first and then the trash at the end. Since they are burning Trash, and you are holding threat on the Champ, they may pull agro... but it's trash, and by the time they do so, it'll be almost dead anyways.

 

By the time they get to the Champ, they shouldn't pull it off you at all.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Toogeloo

[Samurro]

Most classes here can take a beating for a few hits. The important thing is to make sure they aren't getting hit by the beefiest mo-fo out there.

 

When possible, CC the hardest hitting mobs. If that isn't possible, CC the next hardest hitting mobs and so on.

 

When tanking, tank the hardest hitting mob that isn't CCed. Throw out your AoE taunt, or some AoE attacks on the trash, but DPS should be burning the weakest enemies up to the to strongest enemies. More Enemies on screen means more damage going out. If the trash gets burned down, that is way less damage than if you try to kill the Champion first and then the trash at the end. Since they are burning Trash, and you are holding threat on the Champ, they may pull agro... but it's trash, and by the time they do so, it'll be almost dead anyways.

 

By the time they get to the Champ, they shouldn't pull it off you at all.

 

Did you actually read the first post? I doubt that, because he states that he has problems with singel target threat....

[XaviourEQ]

When I hit 50 it wasn't so bad, I could keep up with the basic geared DPS or fresh 50 undergeared DPS.

 

Now when all my DPS are in almost full Columi or higher it is becoming ridiculously difficult to hold threat.

 

I am running in mostly full Columi or equivalent gear.

Spec is the cookie cutter 31 / 10 / 0

My accuracy is ~ 110%

 

I have played a tank in every MMO since EQ, and multiple tank classes in some of them. I know about tanking and love the role.

Never have I had such a terrible experience with threat.

 

I realize that we are not suppose to be great at AoE tanking, I can accept that as long as single target threat would not be an issue.

 

I figured this was a known issue and would be addressed, however I am not seeing anything coming down the pipeline to address this issue.

 

I don't want abilities to do more damage and effect PvP, I simply want proper threat modifiers, possibly tied to talents to make tanking on a Jugg viable threat wise. With tight enrage timers being pretty much the mainstay difference between difficulty modes, it doesn't help to tell my DPS to wait 10 seconds to DPS.

 

It baffles me that this has not been addressed yet. There has to be a large population of Jugg tanks out there experiencing this.

 

I have not read a dev post on this issue, if anyone has a link to one, I would appreciate it.

 

Thanks.

 

I feel you.I too played a crusader (paladin/shadowknight) in eq1/eq2 for ~ a decade.I've tanked alot of highend raid encounters, including the Avatars in eq2.

 

On that note, before all the wannabe leetest juggernauts come in and try to tell me/us how easy it is to tank with a juggernaut, let me say: This isnt a post about how it is impossible to tank with the juggernaut.Tanking with the juggernaut is viable in a good premade raid/fp setting.This is a post on how to improve the jugg to be on par with that 'other' tank known as the powertech.

 

I must say, tanking in sw:tor with immortal spec is frustrating, especially in PUGs where none gives a hoot.

 

Aside from the defensive tionese/columi set bonus gear cattering to immortal spec, there is no reason to spec immortal.That is how terrible immortal spec is.

 

Defensively, Vengeance tree has +4% passive endurance, +4% passive damage reduction, unstoppable wich grants +20% damage reduction temporarily after force charge is used.And, if you use 8-33-0 build, you can get the 6% passive defense boost from immortal tree too all while having impale and its upgrades + shatter.Atleast 3x the dps with vengeance spec, if not more with the DOTS and overall offensive boost you get from vengeance.

 

WTB a legit fix to immortal Tree, here are some things that need to be done to immortal tree to make it worthwhile, since its garbage atm.

 

 

 

*Be able to upgrade 'guard' to be a group wide buff (upto 4 people), Scale the damage reduction to guarded members down a bit if needed.So 25% threat reduction to the entire group.

 

*Some abilities such as force scream, smash, force choke, RAVAGE should have an upgrade avalible in immortal tree to make them do additional 'Threat over time' Or just some static threat generation to effected targets.This would even perhaps make ravage worthwile at the same time.Vengeance tree you get DOTS, why not threat in immortal tree?Backhand is a joke...

 

*In contrast to suggestion 1 (guard upgrade), the 4 set bonus for columi/rataka could additionally make guard groupwide even instead of an upgrade in the immortal tree.

 

*Can we get a main hand damage boost please? the PT does literally like 10x the amount of damage with their ranged MH.

 

In short, if you spec immortal..you're doing it wrong..ATM.There simply is no rason to, unless you just absolutely have to have the columi/tionese defensive set bonuses working for your toon.

 

Obviously they didn't thin things through long enough to make the immortal tree worthwhile, yet they grant 'immortal only' setbonuses on the D gear... /facepalm

Edited January 30, 2012 by XaviourEQ

[Samurro]

Atleast 3x the dps with vengeance spec, if not more with the DOTS and overall offensive boost you get from vengeance.

 

In short, if you spec immortal..you're doing it wrong..ATM.There simply is no rason to, unless you just absolutely have to have the columi/tionese defensive set bonuses working for your toon.

 

Obviously they didn't thin things through long enough to make the immortal tree worthwhile, yet they grant 'immortal only' setbonuses on the D gear... /facepalm

 

Troll elsewhere, I never played EQ, but to think you maintanked something beats the logic that you are a good player. You can't even read...

 

Sonic Barrier and Dark Blood. And it seems you have serious threat issues, because all your "suggestions" aim to add more thread generation. I ask you, where do you lose aggro in endcontent?

[XaviourEQ]

Troll elsewhere, I never played EQ, but to think you maintanked something beats the logic that you are a good player. You can't even read...

 

Sonic Barrier and Dark Blood. And it seems you have serious threat issues, because all your "suggestions" aim to add more thread generation. I ask you, where do you lose aggro in endcontent?

 

i never claimed to 'lose aggro' or have threat problems.Playing the juggernaut over the Powertech is a joke.they were ssimply suggestions on how to make the juggernaut on par with the better tanks.mabey im not the one who needs to L2 read?But thanks for the reply.Have a nice day.

Edited January 30, 2012 by XaviourEQ

[Samurro]

i never claimed to 'lose aggro' or have threat problems.Playing the juggernaut over the Powertech is a joke.they were ssimply suggestions on how to make the juggernaut on par with the better tanks.mabey im not the one who needs to L2 read?But thanks for the reply.Have a nice day.

 

All you talking about is how inferior Immortal tree is over a vengeance tree for tanking which is ridicolous. You even say it does 3 times the damage....lol

 

And sorry, but Immortal Juggs can handle the whole content there is, so why should we need a buff regarding those suggetions you made?

[XaviourEQ]

All you talking about is how inferior Immortal tree is over a vengeance tree for tanking which is ridicolous. You even say it does 3 times the damage....lol

 

And sorry, but Immortal Juggs can handle the whole content there is, so why should we need a buff regarding those suggetions you made?

 

Because IMMORTAL tree isnt worth specing into atm???there isnt any ccontent in the game that require immortal, even though its hardly even better defensively than vengeance..Why lose the dps?? Whne you can spec vengeance, get the same amount of defense + YES...about 3x the dps...Are you dim? Sonic barrier and dark blood are your staple of the debate we are having atm?Are you kidding???

 

Does the 20% damage reduction from unstoppable in vengeance tree not counter the sonic barrier in immortal tree??

Edited January 30, 2012 by XaviourEQ

[Samurro]

Because IMMORTAL tree isnt worth specing into atm???Why lose the dps?? Whne you can spec vengeance, get the same amount of defense + YES...about 3x the dps...Are you dim? Sonic barrier and dark blood are your staple of the debate we are having atm?Are you kidding???

Now its getting ridicolous, you actually think Veng does really so much more damage?

 

And yes those mitigation talents do count, they are on of the highest tier talent Immortal has.... O,O

[XaviourEQ]

Now its getting ridicolous, you actually think Veng does really so much more damage?

 

And yes those mitigation talents do count, they are on of the highest tier talent Immortal has.... O,O

 

Does the 20% damage reduction from unstoppable in vengeance tree not counter the loss of sonic barrier in immortal tree?? And yes, the DOTS from vengeance make a diffrence in dps, not to mention impale and shatter adds 60% crit to the next force scream and vicious throw....

Edited January 30, 2012 by XaviourEQ

[Samurro]

Does the 20% damage reduction from unstoppable in vengeance tree not counter the loss of sonic barrier in immortal tree?? And yes, the DOTS from vengeance make a diffrence in dps, not to mention impale and shatter adds 60% crit to the next force scream and vicious throw....

 

Holy god, you really think unstoppable is useful in PvE content? O,o How often do you force charge a boss and what impact has 20% dmg reduction at the start of a fight?

 

Oh yes now you explain how veng improves the damage of your skills, but where is the proof that you do triple the damage?

 

And you called me dim...lol srsly....

[XaviourEQ]

Holy god, you really think unstoppable is useful in PvE content? O,o How often do you force charge a boss and what impact has 20% dmg reduction at the start of a fight?

 

Oh yes now you explain how veng improves the damage of your skills, but where is the proof that you do triple the damage?

 

And you called me dim...lol srsly....

 

Wow... I suppose you are correct.I didn't actually calculate the dps gain down to the exact dps. It doesnt even take a brain to go find a lower tier champion to beat on and see a significant dps gain... whos dim?

 

At any rate, you're just here to troll a totally legit thread about juggernauts fail spec known as immortal... Or wait.. immortal spec doesnt need a boost of any kind.. about 500k people are totally wrong, and you sir are correct..

 

(sorry i didn't calculate the exact number of people asking for immortal spec to get a boost, i know you like exact numbers)

Edited January 30, 2012 by XaviourEQ

[Samurro]

Wow... I suppose you are correct.I didn't actually calculate the dps gain down to the exact dps. It doesnt even take a brain to go find a lower tier champion to beat on and see a significant dps gain... whos dim?

 

At any rate, you're just here to troll a totally legit thread about juggernauts fail spec known as immortal... Or wait.. immortal spec doesnt need a boost of any kind.. about 500k people are totally wrong, and you sir are correct..

 

Nobody said Immortal does the same damage, but you still lack the proof that vengeance does triple the damage which I hardly doubt.

 

And yes another stupid number, where do you find 500.000 people complaining? Can you just talk **** or do you have proof for anything you say?

 

I have no problems with Immortal, I tank hardmode EV/KP, played from 1-50 and PvP as Immortal.

 

I don't say Immortal tree is perfectly fine, but your ranting about Immortal specc beeing worthless and vengeance far superior is plain stupid.

 

And stop calling me dim or trolling, people could think you are talking about yourself.

[XaviourEQ]

Nobody said Immortal does the same damage, but you still lack the proof that vengeance does triple the damage which I hardly doubt.

 

And yes another stupid number, where do you find 500.000 people complaining? Can you just talk **** or do you have proof for anything you say?

 

I have no problems with Immortal, I tank hardmode EV/KP, played from 1-50 and PvP as Immortal.

 

I don't say Immortal tree is perfectly fine, but your ranting about Immortal specc beeing worthless and vengeance far superior is plain stupid.

 

And stop calling me dim or trolling, people could think you are talking about yourself.

 

yes, if you spec immortal you are playing the game wrong. There isnt any content IN THE GAME that requires the little defensive advantage (over vengeance) granted by immortal spec.Why would you op to take a small defensive gain over much more damage? Do you die alot?Are the healers failing?Enough said...

 

And stop calling me dim or trolling, people could think you are talking about yourself.

 

Man, you're so witty and funny... gg

 

PS: BTW, you letting us know that you lvl'd as immortal aswell as pvp in immortal spec is proof enough to me that i shouldn't waste anymore posts arguing with you.Not only because it is inefficient, but because you obviously didn't even try the other specs during lvling.I mean, have you even tried vengeance or even rage specs?

Edited January 30, 2012 by XaviourEQ

[Samurro]

yes, if you spec immortal you are playing the game wrong. There isnt any content IN THE GAME that requires the little defensive advantage (over vengeance) granted by immortal spec.Why would you op to take a small defensive gain over much more damage? Do you die alot?Are the healers failing?Enough said...

 

 

PS: BTW, you letting us know that you lvl'd as immortal aswell as pvp in immortal spec is proof enough to me that i shouldn't waste anymore posts arguing with you.

 

Maybe because I enjoy the specc? o,O I love the possibilities I gain from Immortal for PvP? I don't want to respecc and don't need to, because enrage timers are no problem yet. And my main focus lies on PvP. I even do hardmodes with Intimidation specced...

 

The last comment is again no argument, just stupid blabla.

 

Btw did you actually test Immortal? Because I did test all of the 3 trees and enjoy Immortal the most.

 

Edit:

I was the first Juggernaut Battlemaster on my server, I beat every class 1on1 except healers and I top the list in warzones 80% of the time....

Edited January 30, 2012 by Samurro

[XaviourEQ]

Maybe because I enjoy the specc? o,O I love the possibilities I gain from Immortal for PvP? I don't want to respecc and don't need to, because enrage timers are no problem yet.

 

The last comment is again no argument, just stupid blabla.

 

Btw did you actually test Immortal? Because I did test all of the 3 trees and enjoy Immortal the most.

 

Yes i was immortal for awhile.A bit during lvling and at endgame. lvling (for me) went alot faster using vengeance and/or rage spec.To each their own.I didn't intend on getting into an lengthy debate in this thread.After some lengthy played time, I seen a viable thread about the Jugg, so I posted my analysis/opinion(s) on how to improve the class to be on par with other tanks.That is all.

 

have a nice day