A serious questions about the OP change and PVP design (please respond)

[lexiekaboom]

If OPs / Smug are NOT supposed to have the burst damage to kill a sorc / sage before they can heal themselves to full ... who is?

 

Is the design goal of SW:TOR to have a "trump" class that can only be defeated by focused fire to promote team work or something?

 

I'm honestly very confused about how the classes are supposed to work. I know you don't want rock / paper / scissors but the more I play (and the more often it pans out this way) I'm starting to see that a team of 8 sorcs is without question the ideal group for WZs

 

Please tell me if there is something I'm missing. Is there something they CAN'T do? Is them some class combination that would make that team say "If only we had x because we can't deal with y"?

 

8 of any other class would be a completely horrible team with no chance of winning, with the exception of commando / merc who can spam the win button and heal themselves.

 

As a 50 sorc who with only champ gear who is not in any way great at PVP (I click!) I almost fell bad as I easily kill, or at the very least chain heal myself indefinitely, against any class these is except smugs. Not only are they super low population, but a change is making it so they wont be able to kill me any more. I mean ... thanks I guess. But why?

[Viscerus]

My marauder has an insanely hard time bursting down a healer before he just heals himself up. can only do it against poorly geared ones.

[IlynPayne]

so in your opinion sorc/sage is too strong. and to counter that, by your logic, you want 1 class thats able to kill them without much problems. this class dominating all other classes too is some unimportant sideeffect for you then i guess?

 

great logic.

[Aidank]

I don't think healers are supposed to be solo-killable in this game, this goes for mercs as well.

[Ojas]

Stop reading into it.

 

Dude....

 

Bioware is removing the class that might be able to kill a sorc merc sage or commando.

 

Operatives are already subpar in pvp. Yes they do strong dps.

 

Bioware doesn't care. There are so few of us. Bioware things...

 

Let's lose 100% of our operatives, if it keeps 2% of our sorcs playing becuase they can not faceroll another class in the game.

 

 

 

Here is the grounds for nerfs in the game

 

Operative beat Sorc = Yes --> Nerf

 

Operative beat Sorc = No --> Nerf anyway just incase.

 

EVERYBODY playing operative knows how ****** the class is. It is TOO hard to play a melee class with no utility like operative to not be #1 damage class in the game.

 

Bioware is focused on doing NOTHING but appealing to the majority of their players. Doing that includes removing the least played class in the game from any competitive role.

 

 

Bioware needs to release the numbers they used as "grounds" for their nerf.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Ojas

[lexiekaboom]

so in your opinion sorc/sage is too strong. and to counter that, by your logic, you want 1 class thats able to kill them without much problems. this class dominating all other classes too is some unimportant sideeffect for you then i guess?

 

great logic.

 

I'm light armour and low hp. Doesn't take very much in the way of thoughtful design to make a class that has insane burst DPS but can't overcome armour.

 

Or just give one class a zero cool down interrupt, or more then one.

 

Or give a class a power that makes it so the victim can't be healed for 6 seconds.

 

Or change interrupts so that you can't cast any spell of the same TYPE (ie, healing) not just the same spell.

 

That's what I came up with in 30 seconds and I'm not even getting paid!

 

Besides there already is a super class that can defeat anything else. That's kinda my point!

Edited January 29, 2012 by lexiekaboom

[JediDuckling]

My marauder has an insanely hard time bursting down a healer before he just heals himself up. can only do it against poorly geared ones.

 

yes maurauders are well dam powerfull as soon as they get on you then your as good as dead when they start opening up on you lol

[Viscerus]

I'm light armour and low hp. Doesn't take very much in the way of thoughtful design to make a class that has insane burst DPS but can't overcome armour.

 

Or just give one class a zero cool down interrupt, or more then one.

 

Or give a class a power that makes it so the victim can't be healed for 6 seconds.

 

Or change interrupts so that you can't cast any spell of the same TYPE (ie, healing) not just the same spell.

 

That's what I came up with in 30 seconds and I'm not even getting paid!

 

Besides there already is a super class that can defeat anything else. That's kinda of my point!

 

Operatives are medium armor... not light...

 

I have over 600 expertise and ops can take me from 100% hp to 20% hp during hte duration of their 3 second knockdown.

 

That is broken.

[lexiekaboom]

Operatives are medium armor... not light...

 

I have over 600 expertise and ops can take me from 100% hp to 20% hp during hte duration of their 3 second knockdown.

 

That is broken.

 

I'm not an op.

 

Read before posting plz thx k?

[Viscerus]

yes maurauders are well dam powerfull as soon as they get on you then your as good as dead when they start opening up on you lol

 

.... I was just saying how I can't burst down a well geared healer.

[Ojas]

Operatives are medium armor... not light...

 

I have over 600 expertise and ops can take me from 100% hp to 20% hp during hte duration of their 3 second knockdown.

 

That is broken.

 

only if they get red buff use relic and adrenal.

 

And I want a *********** screenshot of you in your pvp armor getting hit for that much by an operative because I know you are lying.

[jcyrus]

If OPs / Smug are NOT supposed to have the burst damage to kill a sorc / sage before they can heal themselves to full ... who is?

The OP change isn't happening because Operatives/Smugglers have the ability to burst damage to kill Sorcerers/Sages before they can heal themselves to full.

 

The OP change is happening because Operatives/Smugglers have the ability to burst damage kill pretty much any class before that class can even react, unless they happen to have their 2minute cooldown escape up. Which even then, they'll be fighting at significantly dimished HP.

 

There are other tools for dealing with Sorcerers/Sages. Interrupts, stuns, knockbacks, and the Trauma effect can all be used to prevent them from healing to full, if used correctly.

[Viscerus]

I'm not an op.

 

Read before posting plz thx k?

 

Ah i did not realize you were the OP when i read the second post.

 

I see what you are saying.

 

But the answer isnt to let Ops annihilate anyone in 3 seconds.

[Greennunu]

Are the ops just complaining they can't solo kill a well geared healer? Actually this seems to be the biggest gripe I have seen since the nerf, that the ops have a lower chance to down someone 1v1.

 

Last I check OPs has the freedom to pick their target, even with my stealth detection specced a good ops can still hit me while I am busy and take me down. I am sorry if that your class burst is lower than it use to be but still higher than every other class out there. If I get in a fight now and another class jumps in I have time to use my CD's and play defensively till someone comes to help. When that 2nd person is an operative I pretty much just die.

 

Guess you'll just have to get out of your solo mindset and start playing with the rest of the team.

[lexiekaboom]

Ah i did not realize you were the OP when i read the second post.

 

I see what you are saying.

 

But the answer isnt to let Ops annihilate anyone in 3 seconds.

 

Which is why this post isn't about not changing OPs. It's about ... what is taking there place as the paper to my rock? A question I'm honestly confused about.

 

To the posters who are saying that "there are tools to dealing with sages / sorcs, like interrupts" ... show me a video of a one on one kill of sorc using they tools please. You can interrupt one heal every 15 seconds. I have 3 heals to chain, and my bubble is instant cast. Plus if anyone does somehow get the perfect stun / interrupt / stun combo off and get me close to death I just sprint, hide behind a box, and I'm full health before they can find me again.

 

And my bubble cool down is over!

 

Even your argument of "a OP can get me to 20% in 3 seconds" is missing a very important point, so let me finish it for you.

 

A OP can get me to 20% in 3 seconds. They I bubble and uninterruptable mez him, he breaks, then I stun him. Then I heal to full. Then I kill him. I don't die to smugs who attack me at full health, but most are smart enough not to.

 

Again, not saying that isn't broken, just asking ... so what now? What kills me now other then "the whole team leaving objectives to focus fire me" which is the only thing over then an smug one shot that kills me now.

[fungihoujo]

Sorc are sustained dps/utility. Sustained burst is the best option- and that's Sentinel/Mercenary... and indeed, sentinels and mercs are two classes very well suited for taking care of Sorcs- the mercs can't be kited, and sentinels have a low CD on leaps which includes a root and interrupt- unspecced.

 

If you can learn to sustain burst on an Op, you'll do fine- but tanks and unsustained burst should have a harder time killing a sorc.

 

Your error is believing that Ops are a part of rock/paper/scissors- Ops are sudden burst, they're scissors when paired or outgearing to everyone else being paper... but, when at a disadvantage and once their opener's out, they become rocks.

[lexiekaboom]

Sorc are sustained dps/utility. Sustained burst is the best option- and that's Sentinel/Mercenary... and indeed, sentinels and mercs are two classes very well suited for taking care of Sorcs- the mercs can't be kited, and sentinels have a low CD on leaps which includes a root and interrupt- unspecced.

 

If you can learn to sustain burst on an Op, you'll do fine- but tanks and unsustained burst should have a harder time killing a sorc.

 

Your error is believing that Ops are a part of rock/paper/scissors- Ops are sudden burst, they're scissors when paired or outgearing to everyone else being paper... but, when at a disadvantage and once their opener's out, they become rocks.

 

The root and interrupt is not unspecced, although most of them go that way. They are so easy to kill with dots and kitting it's not even funny ... the "low CD" lead you are taking about is in fact a reasonable cool down leap with 10-30 range. How do they close to 30 range once I hit sprint, even if they break the instant cast snare I put on them before doing so.

 

Powertech / merc is pretty much the only class I can't kill outright one on one, but they sure can't kill me either. I run away and find a better target.

 

As for your last paragraph ... man, read then post. I said exactly that in my last post. OPs are a horrible class, if they can't kill me in the initial burst (which they can't if I'm full health) they have nothing at all left and die easily.

[jcyrus]

To the posters who are saying that "there are tools to dealing with sages / sorcs, like interrupts" ... show me a video of a one on one kill of sorc using they tools please. You can interrupt one heal every 15 seconds. I have 3 heals to chain, and my bubble is instant cast.

Marauder interrupt is only 8 seconds, and can be specced down to 6 through talents. Their no-cost Force Charge can be specced to 0 range, and down to a 12 second cooldown. They've also got their 3-second channeled choke stun (though that's likely a one shot use over the duration of a fight). Timing their attacks correctly, they can deal 4 interrupts in a row, with 2 more coming shortly afterwards. Plus they can inflict the Trauma debuff to help combat any heals that squeak by.

 

I'm not going to claim that Marauders/Sentinels are the be-all-end-all Sorcerer/Sage destroyers, because they aren't. No class can claim that right now, except perhaps the soon to be nerfed Operative/Smuggler buffed bursters. But there are tools that can be used against Sorcerers/Sages, and if that Sorc/Sage isn't on the ball they can find themselves in a lot of trouble.

[SeanPoe]

I'm light armour and low hp. Doesn't take very much in the way of thoughtful design to make a class that has insane burst DPS but can't overcome armour.

 

Or just give one class a zero cool down interrupt, or more then one.

 

Or give a class a power that makes it so the victim can't be healed for 6 seconds.

 

Or change interrupts so that you can't cast any spell of the same TYPE (ie, healing) not just the same spell.

 

That's what I came up with in 30 seconds and I'm not even getting paid!

 

Besides there already is a super class that can defeat anything else. That's kinda my point!

 

Those are by far the worst ideas i've ever seen in my entire life.

[Xerks]

You really complaining about not being able to kill a HEALER 1v1?

[lexiekaboom]

You really complaining about not being able to kill a HEALER 1v1?

 

Well I'm complaining about no class being able to kill me in fact. but yes.

 

And not "a healer". A sorc. The other two healers can be killed EASILY by most classes one on one as they don't have bubble or sprint.

[Karthaugh]

Well I'm complaining about no class being able to kill me in fact. but yes.

 

And not "a healer". A sorc. The other two healers can be killed EASILY by most classes one on one as they don't have bubble or sprint.

 

uhhhh....maybe they dont have the 3k bubble, but they do have the 25% 12s 2minute CD + heavy armour. The sage bubble isnt really my main problem, one good crit and its down. its the addition of the bubble, the snare, the pbaoe KB/root, the sprint stun whirlwind etc....

[fungihoujo]

The root and interrupt is not unspecced, although most of them go that way. They are so easy to kill with dots and kitting it's not even funny ... the "low CD" lead you are taking about is in fact a reasonable cool down leap with 10-30 range. How do they close to 30 range once I hit sprint, even if they break the instant cast snare I put on them before doing so.

 

Powertech / merc is pretty much the only class I can't kill outright one on one, but they sure can't kill me either. I run away and find a better target.

 

As for your last paragraph ... man, read then post. I said exactly that in my last post. OPs are a horrible class, if they can't kill me in the initial burst (which they can't if I'm full health) they have nothing at all left and die easily.

 

You didn't seem to read what I said. Burst classes are better when paired, that's how rogue style classes have worked for a long time. It is very easy for two stealthed Ops to take out just about anyone in a few seconds.

 

It's people who think that 1v1 without using your important assets (ie-stealth and picking your battles) who will always think stealthers are garbage because they only consider their stand up and take it ability.

 

This is not a 1v1 game, it's a team game- and two ops pairing and then going one by one taking out healers or other vitals wins matches- problem is, most players are too buys trying to solo their way to victory.

 

Also, I am looking at my marauder's force charge right now- it is indeed unspecced that I have a 2 second root and an interrupt on the ability.

 

Now I'm looking at my guardian to see if the different spec changes... oh, nope- same deal- interrupt and root, no speccing.

 

There are of course possible additional leaps- but the base one which is 15 sec (12 sec for marauders with spec) includes it.