What good PvP games have item progression.

[CrunchyGremlin]

All successful mmogs have item and character progression.

 

If you don't like that style of play you are playing the wrong game.

 

Sorry you are wrong.

 

EvE is an example of PvP without a required Item or skill progression.

 

DAOC had 0 pvp progression until they added realm ranks long after release.

[Jestunhi]

I didn't assume anything, I knew the focus wasn't PvP, you only asked where it was said this is a PvP game, no?

 

Maybe though, I assumed it was to be an MMO that had some of the best PvP designers, working on it, and to be "blown away" with their RvR planet, hence, a game with good PvP.

 

A game featuring pvp is different to a pvp game.

 

To be clear I pvp considerably more than anything else in this game. Yes I'd like some more warzones (new match types, new maps for existing map types) as well as ongoing balance patches, etc.

 

But in a game primarily marketed as a story-driven MMO I didn't expect pvp to be the the focus.

[Jestunhi]

Sorry you are wrong.

 

EvE is an example of PvP without a required Item or skill progression.

What?

 

Months training skills & millions of Isk to buy a ship which could be destroyed? That's no skill or gear progression?

 

DAOC had 0 pvp progression until they added realm ranks long after release.

 

Plenty of gear progression even before realm ranks, even if there was no specific pvp stat.

[CrunchyGremlin]

I wouldn't assume it was the focus of the game, merely that they were taking it seriously. And, don't get me wrong, not because of that one sentence. The trailers on the Warzones, the whole "Deadliest Warrior" style trailers they had about who would win in duels. The articles written about Ilum and the warzones.

 

They definitely used PVP as a selling point in their marketing. They never said it was the focus by any means, but they didn't make it sound like it was going to be totally neglected either.

 

Which to be fair, I don't think it IS being totally neglected it just irritates me when people use what you're saying as some sort of excuse for them to just ignore the PVP because it's just icing on the cake.

 

It is also irritating to see them not taking it as seriously as I would have hoped.

 

Honestly Scoob i dont think they are allowed to give much attention.

Pulling it out of my *** I think their matching orders are handed to them and PvP is much lower on the plate than SW content.

 

But i fully believe that they do have a plan.

 

There are quite a lot of common MMO things in this game that do not exist.

[CrunchyGremlin]

What?

 

Months training skills & millions of Isk to buy a ship which could be destroyed? That's no skill or gear progression?

 

 

 

Plenty of gear progression even before realm ranks, even if there was no specific pvp stat.

 

in EvE PvP? No. once you get to a point that you can use X and fly X there is no longer any need of progression for that style of combat.

 

Finances is something different and there is an item and skill progress for PvE. There is a PvP progression for the style of PvP you want to play but it is not needed. Frigates can be just as deadly as dreadnaughts even though dreads require much more skill.

Player skill in EvE is far more important than item progression.

 

DAOC item stuff was not specifically PvP nor was it required to have all top notch gear. Good PvE gear was also good in PvP but it was not a make or break situation. ou didnt have to have top notch gear nor did you have to progess once you got good gear.

[Jestunhi]

in EvE PvP? No. once you get to a point that you can use X and fly X there is no longer any need of progression for that style of combat.

Once you've progressed a load you don't need to progress further?

 

Sounds like any other gear-based MMO, once you reach cap and have the best gear progression stops.

 

Finances is something different and there is an item and skill progress for PvE. There is a PvP progression for the style of PvP you want to play but it is not needed. Frigates can be just as deadly as dreadnaughts even though dreads require much more skill.

Player skill in EvE is far more important than item progression.

I'm not disputing that skill can play a larger effect, but to claim there is no gear ot character skill progression is taking it a bit too far.

 

DAOC item stuff was not specifically PvP nor was it required to have all top notch gear. Good PvE gear was also good in PvP but it was not a make or break situation. ou didnt have to have top notch gear nor did you have to progess once you got good gear.

 

Doesn't need to be. Gear progression is gear progression and even if expertise were removed someone in high end raid gear will have an advantage over someone who just hit 50 and is in greens. The same applies to DAOC.

[Cinc]

For the first year of DAOC nearly everyone wore their epic armor in PvP. Even with SI you could just farm money to pay for the spellcrafting and alchemy to make top end gear. It wasn't until TOA that the gear progression jumped off a cliff. That's also when the game started to die.

[Kolbenito]

Its subjective of course but I find skill based PvP better than item progression PvP in most every case.

Tribes.

CS

COD

BF

 

Hrmm, I'm not sure that I think any of those games fall into the same category as MMO PVP or even resemble it. Yes it is "Player vs. Player", and it does involve classes, but it's not the same thing.

 

In MMO PVP you are dealing with different classes, synergy between classes, cooldowns, talent trees, interrupts, CCs, silences, a GCD and many other things. I personally don't see any similarity between the two types of games beyond "fighting other players" and would not characterize FPS as PVP.

 

In short MMO PVP tends to either fall into the category of being rewarded for grinding out something or climbing a ladder and the reward for both is usually gear.

 

Edited down some...

Edited January 27, 2012 by Kolbenito

[Jestunhi]

Even with SI you could just farm money to pay for the spellcrafting and alchemy to make top end gear.

 

I'd say having to actively farm to get specific gear shows it was gear based.

 

 

 

:edit:

 

 

BTW, I'm in the beta for the new MMO tribes game in development and also have high hopes for Planetside 2.

 

These are the 2 pvp focused games which I'm interested in in the foreseeable future (other than FireFall which frankly looks fantastic for an F2P MMO).

Edited January 27, 2012 by Jestunhi

[CrunchyGremlin]

Once you've progressed a load you don't need to progress further?

 

Sounds like any other gear-based MMO, once you reach cap and have the best gear progression stops.

 

I'm not disputing that skill can play a larger effect, but to claim there is no gear ot character skill progression is taking it a bit too far.

 

 

 

Doesn't need to be. Gear progression is gear progression and even if expertise were removed someone in high end raid gear will have an advantage over someone who just hit 50 and is in greens. The same applies to DAOC.

 

You're right. There is item progression its just not the focus like it is here. its not required that i have a dreadnaught.

Maybe more so the problem is not item progression... maybe its more the item progression in SWTOR and WOW are part of the PvP process.

 

 

In eve they are seperate. PvP have nothing to do with item or skill progression.

In DAOC old school it was the same.

 

Here i have PvP to get better pvp gear.

[StugLyfe]

Sorry you are wrong.

 

EvE is an example of PvP without a required Item or skill progression.

 

DAOC had 0 pvp progression until they added realm ranks long after release.

 

 

 

Sorry man but All MMOS except for GW have some type of grind.

 

WoW has a gear grind

 

Swtor gear grind but IMO it isn't that bad at all.

 

EvE has the worst type of grind IMO, one which is R/L time based so no matter how many hours you play you can NEVER catch up to the end players. DO not give me this **** about flying some low level scrub ship and being a a tackle lol. That's liek being a buffer in other MMOS but with zero combat ability.

 

Darkfall Skill Grind was insane.

 

Lineage II Massive grind even more so then Final Fantasy series

 

 

As someone stated items keep people comming back ..... I mean why do they make new car models? The older models work fine but we all NEED new shinys!

Edited January 27, 2012 by StugLyfe

[Kolbenito]

You're right. There is item progression its just not the focus like it is here. its not required that i have a dreadnaught.

Maybe more so the problem is not item progression... maybe its more the item progression in SWTOR and WOW are part of the PvP process.

 

 

In eve they are seperate. PvP have nothing to do with item or skill progression.

In DAOC old school it was the same.

 

Here i have PvP to get better pvp gear.

 

Okay think of it this way. At some point down the road, Bioware is going to release a new raid tier with harder bosses. Those harder bosses will drop better loot than the current ones do. Now think about two more raid tiers down the road, that is a gap of 4 raid tiers worth of gear.

At that point if PVP gear remained the same and you got everything just the one time you might find that in order to PVP at the top you now need to find the best raid guild on your server and try to get a raid spot.

 

Or take the guy who has finally done enough Warzones to reach rank 100, Elite Warlord. What would keep this player interested in the game wearing rank 60 PVP gear for the next 6 months, year, year and a half with nothing to look forward to?

 

It's pretty obvious why they do this, which was the point of my much shorter original post

[CrunchyGremlin]

Hrmm, I'm not sure that I think any of those games fall into the same category as MMO PVP or even resemble it. Yes it is "Player vs. Player", and it does involve classes, but it's not the same thing.

 

In MMO PVP you are dealing with different classes, synergy between classes, cooldowns, talent trees, interrupts, CCs, silences, a GCD and many other things. I personally don't see any similarity between the two types of games beyond "fighting other players" and would not characterize FPS as PVP.

 

In short MMO PVP tends to either fall into the category of being rewarded for grinding out something or climbing a ladder and the reward for both is usually gear.

 

Edited down some...

 

well there in lies the problem. They are the same thing as far as combat is concerned. Look at instances in swtor. These are almost identical to any of the classic FPS games in concept save that i can not easily change my class. All the gimmicks that make the combat more involved is really not exclusive to RPG MMO's. Its just that MMO's generally are more complicated but that is just the way that game companies are alloed to build games.

 

look at PvP for what it is. its player VS player.

PvE has a progression involving harder and harder content and an end goal.

 

PVP doesnt work that way. the item progression concept is completely different but they are trying to make it the same and it doesnt work well. its inherently flawed as it rewards the grind not the skill and PvP is not about grind.

[Jestunhi]

You're right. There is item progression its just not the focus like it is here. its not required that i have a dreadnaught.

Maybe more so the problem is not item progression... maybe its more the item progression in SWTOR and WOW are part of the PvP process.

 

 

In eve they are seperate. PvP have nothing to do with item or skill progression.

In DAOC old school it was the same.

 

Here i have PvP to get better pvp gear.

 

No, you have to pvp to get the best pvp gear.

 

Better pve gear beats worse pve gear in pvp, especially in the lower bracket where there's less expertise.

 

And gear isn't the end all when it comes to managing your buffs, your interrupts, your CCs, your CC breaker, teamwork, etc. It's just one of the factors.

[Scoobings]

Thats a good list although successful pvp is subjective. Many say that the item progression in WoW kills the PvP same with GA.

shadowbane is dead isnt it?

Moba... is pay to play progression. that seems a thing of it s own.

 

I guess item progression in SWTOR could be considered Pay to Play. Grind to get the items.

 

Its subjective of course but I find skill based PvP better than item progression PvP in most every case.

Tribes.

CS

COD

BF

 

Item progression didn't kill GA, the crappy world map pvp did... The name escapes me right now, but there was the world map and you fought over hexes. The guild I was in pretty much took over and everyone quit. They took too long to revamp the system and add any incentives to play in it if you weren't going to win.

 

Item progression didn't kill WoW. WoW has always had progression, and resilience was introduced back in Burning Crusade. Burning Crusade was when PVP actually took off and it was most successful. S1-3 of Arena was some of the best structured PVP (Read: Excluding OW PVP) MMOs have ever seen. Aside from the obvious class imbalances that is, but again that's not because of the gear.

 

As for MOBAs, you can pay for the progression to be sure, but you don't HAVE to.

 

Also, I'd like to add, just because a game is dead doesn't mean it's PVP wasn't successful. Games die, that's just the way of things.

 

Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong because I don't play those games, don't BF, and COD give experience rewards for skills that increase stats? I don't see how that's different than gathering Currency (read: Experience) for items that increase stats.

 

The itemized progression system works. Fact is as long as there is ANY sort of progression at all in a game, people who are at the bottom of the ladder will complain that it's not fair or skill based.

[Acyu]

This is a pvp game?

 

Where was it marketed as such?

 

Oh stop crying about PvP people getting gear.

 

This game had so little "mmo" content that it should have been marketed as a single-player RPG.

 

Lol storyline, voice acting, cutscenes.

[Scoobings]

Honestly Scoob i dont think they are allowed to give much attention.

Pulling it out of my *** I think their matching orders are handed to them and PvP is much lower on the plate than SW content.

 

But i fully believe that they do have a plan.

 

There are quite a lot of common MMO things in this game that do not exist.

 

I suspect you're right, and I don't neccesarily blame BW, or even Mythic, so much as it smells like EA is stifiling them. My experience with that company is they have a tendency to crap all over promising things. This reeks of EA rushing the title out the door and sacreficing PVP for initial sales

[Kolbenito]

well there in lies the problem. They are the same thing as far as combat is concerned. Look at instances in swtor. These are almost identical to any of the classic FPS games in concept save that i can not easily change my class. All the gimmicks that make the combat more involved is really not exclusive to RPG MMO's. Its just that MMO's generally are more complicated but that is just the way that game companies are alloed to build games.

 

look at PvP for what it is. its player VS player.

PvE has a progression involving harder and harder content and an end goal.

 

PVP doesnt work that way. the item progression concept is completely different but they are trying to make it the same and it doesnt work well. its inherently flawed as it rewards the grind not the skill and PvP is not about grind.

 

We are just going to have to disagree on these points.

 

In BF or MW if I see your first and am not terrible your dead. In WoW or SWTOR playing organized teams I'm not going to just charge you and cleave you dead. The amount of multitasking it takes to be really good in MMO PVP (pro) is basically mind boggling and even in a huge game like WoW you have maybe 30 guys who are almost perfect at it after thousands of matches and refined play.

 

Not a dig on FPS but the skill cap is very high for two things, moving and aiming. MMOs have an almost infinite skill cap as players get better all the time, have a ton they need to know about the game and the game constantly changes. FPS is not PVP

 

On the point of gear specifically, the real reason is in my previous post.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Kolbenito

[Jestunhi]

Oh stop crying about PvP people getting gear.

 

This game had so little "mmo" content that it should have been marketed as a single-player RPG.

 

Lol storyline, voice acting, cutscenes.

 

I don't think you will find a single post from me complaining that pvp players get pvp gear.

 

Feel free to look though.

[CrunchyGremlin]

I guess you are mostly right. A lot of them do have progression of some sort but dont they have regression as well? where you lose access to stuff.

 

Still the way PvE and PvP work are different.

the "content" is different.

Final Fantasy compared to CS.

 

I dont mind PvP gear i just dont like that there is no economy around the items.

 

You never lose them and you cant sell them to someone one else.

I think the way eve did the drops was much better.

 

didnt shadowbane have PvP items drops too?

Edited January 28, 2012 by CrunchyGremlin