Dungeon Finder Needed Badly

[Gavin_Darkl]

yeah you right here

 

and "they" (anti-LFG crowd) now want to turn massive multiplayer into multiplayer with what? 20-30 people in your guild?… and erase others

 

Navarh,

 

I can say the same opposite. All LFD crowd want to turn a MMO into a Single Player game where you just pay a month fee and never acutely play with other people.

 

So Take your Pick Navarh. You could either come off that pedestal that makes you think you are better and smarter than anyone else and compromise or you can just go play a single player game. Like KOTOR. You will never need to worry about getting a group there.

 

 

Guilds Matter in MMOS not in Single Player games. SWTOR is an MMO not a Single player game.

[Gavin_Darkl]

I know people like to play the "BUT IT WILL MEAN THE GAME IS DYING" on server merges... but they have to happen. Literally HAVE to happen. And not because the game is dying, but because *the game is doing well*. People keep joining SWTOR all the time, and because they are just picking whatever server their friend is on, or picking a server out of the hat "oh that one is Standard pop, sounds good"... we are winding up with server balance issues.

 

The admins stepping in and consolidating the imbalanced servers together to form a couple of higher pop, balanced servers would be ideal. Yeah, it means some players are going to wind up losing their name, but frankly that's a small price to pay for a healthy game.

 

-

 

The alternative is to wind up like WoW. You have a game that had probably twice as many US subscribers at its peak as it does now (talking active players, not subscriber numbers), which means that there are a lot of servers with just no players on one faction or the other... and what do they do? They introduced cross-realm dungeons and raiding.

 

That's NOT a solution, it doesn't change that there are no guilds, no one to level with, a poor AH, and deserted cities on their side of the fence. It doesn't change that if they go to do the much touted world PVP in Mists, that they're going to be outnumbered 50 to 1.

 

-

 

It's a poor business model, as has been pointed out, that so many of the modern day MMOs are scared to mess with server pops. Merges are fine, we need to stop viewing them as the dark herald of "OMG THE GAME MUST BE DYING" - I would *far* rather we stop playing the marketing game of padded subscriber numbers, and focus on the player experience.

 

 

 

This is LOGIC.

[Gavin_Darkl]

Sit down with a piece of paper (no phone, facebook, etc) and write down all of the people you know. List every person you can fully name and picture a face for. Count it. I can guarantee your list will not be longer than 200 names. Our brains are not built for a social structure encompassing millions of people, and in fact we do not think of numbers larger than about 200 as actual people.

 

The expression "one is a tragedy, a million is a statistic" is frank, but it's true.

 

Your social interaction at the "metro level" is based on shared cultural norms. Thanks to westernization and the internet, we're all fairly alike in our memes, norms, standards and culture.

 

The idea that having millions of people in a X-LFG is going to be "better" is dubious at best, it's a claim that random social interaction is superior to more invested relationships. You can't possibly tell me that someone has been enriched by having 1000 random people on their friends list - they're going to get far more out of having a single real friend to count on.

 

I don't see the world of earlier MMOs with rose-tinted glasses, they had some significant problems, not the least of which was the required to play the game insane amounts of time just to be able to do anything... but I do view a healthy community as something that was a guarantee of the early days of not having the mass populous dictate the direction of gameplay.

 

I don't see there ever being another "serious MMO" that gets as many people playing as WoW, not in the days of Free-to-Play and Farmville. I want SWTOR to be a success in the long term, and I don't see appealing purely to the populist "quick button is shiny" crowd as being the way to do that. There are tools that I'm sure will go into place, and server consolidations that need to happen... but going too far in that direction is just as bad as going back to 100 days played to level cap.

 

 

Some more LOGIC.

[Gavin_Darkl]

 

in game i need players to play with, not "more invested relationship" is this so hard to grasp? understand?

 

 

Then you are playing the WRONG genre of game. MMOs are met for you to have "VESTED RELATIONSHIPS." Multiplayer games like Diablo, Never Winter Nights, DO NOT. Single Player games DO NOT. You are playing the wrong type of game if you are not looking to socially interact with people and develop relationships. Mutliplayer games were you can play with other people IF you want or SOLO IF you want. Or a Fully Single Player game will be for you. NOT AN MMO

[Touchbass]

 

Another logical argument is for the people that are causing major problems on their server now only have to wait til lets say 11pm their server time.

.

 

I hate to break this to you but server reputation doesn't hold much salt anymore. Look at the forums, people are complaining about jerks in game and people stealing loot. The solution to this just group with your friends, why not apply the same logic to X-LFD to avoid these problem people?

 

You can't enforce reputation on servers this big when there is no significant time penatly in re-rolling if you did something really extreme. Look at the amount of players tackling raids, it's a drop in the bucket in the new MMORPG markets, what are you doing to do to stop players from being a jerk? Taddle on them in trade or make a post, either way it's going to be ignored.

[Touchbass]

Navarh,

 

I can say the same opposite. All LFD crowd want to turn a MMO into a Single Player game where you just pay a month fee and never acutely play with other people.

 

So Take your Pick Navarh. You could either come off that pedestal that makes you think you are better and smarter than anyone else and compromise or you can just go play a single player game. Like KOTOR. You will never need to worry about getting a group there.

 

 

Guilds Matter in MMOS not in Single Player games. SWTOR is an MMO not a Single player game.

 

Holy Slippery Slope fallacy batman! Nobody wants to turn this game into a single player game, players who have busy active lives just want the option to group with players on a reliable basis without meandering around for hours.

 

Guilds have been dropping in importance over the years, not just because of X-LFD.

[navarh]

Look at WoW you dont need a guild at all anymore in WoW, you can Raid, you can run Instances, you can run Battlegrounds

if you don't need it or can't afford it that_game say "okay, and we make sure that you can still play and enjoy our game"

but i don't see where "you don't need a guild to play" become "guild is not needed at all"

all with out ever playing the game the way it was meant to be played.

nice very nicee

so you tell me HOW to play? wery nice…

forbid me to do what i like? niceee

in the game? sweet…

and whant money for this? oh marvelous…

 

…no

 

MMOs are met for you to have "VESTED RELATIONSHIPS."

it only yoouuurrss opinion, nothing more, nothing less Edited January 29, 2012 by navarh

[Touchbass]

if you don't need it or can't afford it that_game say "okay, and we make sure that you can still play and enjoy our game"

but i don't see where "you don't need a guild to play" become "guild is not needed at all"

nice very nicee

so you tell me HOW to play? wery nice…

forbid me to do what i like? niceee

in the game? sweet…

and whant money for this? oh marvelous…

 

…no

 

it only yoouuurrss opinion, nothing more, nothing less

 

Don't worry brother the majority of players won't want a guild to become necessary.

[Gavin_Darkl]

EDIT: Didn't mean to go on a tirade down below lol. We can agree to disagree on the guild issue it's fine but we need to agree on auto porting. There needs to be auto-porting in whatever system gets implemented.

 

1) It saves time

 

2) If the group loses a member, without an auto port it runs the dangerous chance of disbanding. I'm seeing this all the time now and it's an issue

 

Really good discussion going on here,Gavin_Darkl, thanks for joining us. I thought I'd chime in on the whole "guild" discussion as our talks appear to be drifting that way. Yes, guilds are a resource pool that you can draw from to accomplish almost anything in an MMORPG. In a tight spot at off peak hours and desperately need a tank a guild can be a great solution.

 

Lets be honest here, gaming demographics have changed and people who play the most hours a week or on a schedule benefit from a guild while others don't. I log in for a few hours here or there and like to do some stuff, i'm increasingly becoming the majority of the playerbase in MMORPG's. I highly doubt players in this playtime cohort are reaping the benefits of guilds. I've had to leave my guild already because whenever I log in I get an officer asking me about my leveling and my schedule when I hit 50. I don't plan on ever having a set schedule to play a video game every again and will probably never raid because of it, I'm ok with that.

 

I also can't be only one who had non-guild hidden alts from back in the day when I played more serious. You log in to have fun and you get X amount of tells asking for run throughs and favours that take up hours of your time. I love the social aspects of guilds but I don't like being coerced into running people through stuff (which is happening with low level content), I don't expect people to be a charity case on me and I expect it vice versa.

 

Guilds don't solve the core problem, if people are available to group with online then nothing can be done except an X-LFD server queue. Once you factor in guild drama, loot drama, raid or die mentalities, guild poaching and endlessly regearing new members, mandatory schedules that last months and my personal favourite having your Main Tank not show up and having to call off the night .... makes me think guilds are an archaic function towards fun.

 

 

Touchbass - I am going to Counter you on this. To please dont be offended if its long.

 

Really good discussion going on here,Gavin_Darkl, thanks for joining us. I thought I'd chime in on the whole "guild" discussion as our talks appear to be drifting that way. Yes, guilds are a resource pool that you can draw from to accomplish almost anything in an MMORPG. In a tight spot at off peak hours and desperately need a tank a guild can be a great solution.

 

Yes A guild should be a Resource however it should be were you join to interact with other people. Join in the community of the guild, if you find the right guild you may even find yourself sitting on vent while soloing shooting the **** about the super bowl or other stuff going on. Thats the beauty of MMOs is you build social interaction and meet people that become friends for years.

 

Lets be honest here, gaming demographics have changed and people who play the most hours a week or on a schedule benefit from a guild while others don't. I log in for a few hours here or there and like to do some stuff, i'm increasingly becoming the majority of the playerbase in MMORPG's. I highly doubt players in this playtime cohort are reaping the benefits of guilds. I've had to leave my guild already because whenever I log in I get an officer asking me about my leveling and my schedule when I hit 50. I don't plan on ever having a set schedule to play a video game every again and will probably never raid because of it, I'm ok with that.

 

You have some truth to your argument that most people that have a set schedule can benefit from a guild, and people who do not - don't fully benefit. However Players that have Odd schedules can still part take in guild events. For example I have a member that his work schedule changes on a weekly bases. 1 week he can play 3 random days, the next its 4 random days. He has no problem missing Raids and Guild events. Why because he and I are friends as well as he is friends with people in the guild. He would rather have the social interaction then randomly join groups. So Yea Real life sucks, it does not affect him in game.

 

If you are talking about Off hour game time like you work til 3am. I also have another friend in the guild that when he worked overnights left our WOW server for a oceanic server where it fit is schedule. It sucked but it had to be done really, I never faulted him for it he kept it touch now that he is back to some what normal life he is back with us. Some guilds Operate overnight too. On Khadgar (WoW server) we had several guilds that played from 1AM til 9AM. People join these guilds. If there is not a guild that is on your server right now that have these times, you are free to make one. Give being a GM a shot you might be surprised how many people join you

 

As for the "When are you schedule to hit 50" I think you joined a hardcore guild that cares about that. It really is your responsibility to find a guild that fits you. If you want to play at your own pace you need to find a guild that will not hound you to 50. My guild does not do this, we have many people that are taking their time to 50. We dont care, we are letting these players do as they wish and enjoy the game. Yes It might hurt them in the end for raiding because the day they hit 50 they might need to wait a week or 2 to raid. However we can not make every person happy, we know this and they need to understand this. They will get into a raid, its just a matter of patience

 

I also can't be only one who had non-guild hidden alts from back in the day when I played more serious. You log in to have fun and you get X amount of tells asking for run throughs and favours that take up hours of your time. I love the social aspects of guilds but I don't like being coerced into running people through stuff (which is happening with low level content), I don't expect people to be a charity case on me and I expect it vice versa.

 

Guilds don't solve the core problem, if people are available to group with online then nothing can be done except an X-LFD server queue. Once you factor in guild drama, loot drama, raid or die mentalities, guild poaching and endlessly regearing new members, mandatory schedules that last months and my personal favourite having your Main Tank not show up and having to call off the night .... makes me think guilds are an archaic function towards fun.

 

Yes there are always going to be people that try to get you to run them through content. We had a person that left the guild about 3 weeks back because we would not run him through heroic quest. 1 person was a low level, 8 people were in flashpoints and he wanted people to drop what they were doing for him. People are like this and will not change. I dont know if you got tells in WoW I sure did people begging me to run them through stuff, these were just random people not guildies. People will be people.

 

Your Last paragraph I will have to say some truths to this. However this is based of the guilds themselves. Each is different. The problems lye within what members allow to happen really. For example if a guild calls a run because the Main Tank does not show, thats BS. If people were to Gquit the guild for that BS then really the guild will learn to make sure they have other tanks to run the content. This reminds be of the Day I became a MT in Vanilla WoW. our top 4 tanks were a no show for a run. The guild was thinking of calling it however members threatens to leave the guild. As an officer I said no we are not going to call it, I was the 5th tank in the raid. I Main tanked ALL 9 Bosses in MC we just called it on Rag because I did not have any Dark Iron gear. All 9 bosses were 1 shotted. WHY because I was a good tank my down fall was my work schedule. I could only be on for 2 weeks worth of raids per month.

 

The Problem is not truly within the guilds themselves most of the time, its with the members that allow **** to happen. If guild members and guilds held players that just want to use guilds to gear up accountable, these members would shortly run out of guilds willing to accept them as members. Back in Vanilla on Khadgar there was a list of over 200 people you did not invite to your guild. There were many guilds that shared information on players among themselves. These players after some time no longer got in any reputable raiding guild.

 

Sorry I told you it was long. Like I said I could counter your arguments. It really comes down to doing your homework on a guild. Nothing is ever perfect. and a LFD tool that is Cross server is not what an MMO is about.

[Touchbass]

I won't be able to read through that till I get to work in 2 hours (I'm being bad I know), thank you for taking the time to write it and I assure you'll I'll read every word you wrote and give you a response

[Gavin_Darkl]

 

You can't enforce reputation on servers this big when there is no significant time penatly in re-rolling if you did something really extreme. Look at the amount of players tackling raids, it's a drop in the bucket in the new MMORPG markets, what are you doing to do to stop players from being a jerk? Taddle on them in trade or make a post, either way it's going to be ignored.

 

Often Times players dig themselves a hole without having to TADDLE. When I was in WoW I had GMs of guilds that came to me about players that stole loot in raids or cause drama. The My guild booted these people, we all put them on the ignore list, and so did other guilds that shared this information. Often times the players make themselves look bad on their own in Trade chat and more people Ignore them. If the LFD tool was server only and took into account the ignore list these people would have true problems getting into groups.

[Gavin_Darkl]

Holy Slippery Slope fallacy batman! Nobody wants to turn this game into a single player game, players who have busy active lives just want the option to group with players on a reliable basis without meandering around for hours.

 

Guilds have been dropping in importance over the years, not just because of X-LFD.

 

No guilds have only been dropping in importance since the LFD tool. Before the LFD tool existed If you didnt have a guild you did not progress in any way. Now that a LFD tool exsist and a LFR tool, there is zero need for a Guild. Might as well turn the game into a SOLO game. There is no point in it being an MMO if you do not need a guild or social interaction.

 

Again SOCIAL INTERACTION is the point why most people play MMOS. It is the reason why MMOs Exists.

[Gavin_Darkl]

if you don't need it or can't afford it that_game say "okay, and we make sure that you can still play and enjoy our game"

but i don't see where "you don't need a guild to play" become "guild is not needed at all"

nice very nicee

so you tell me HOW to play? wery nice…

forbid me to do what i like? niceee

in the game? sweet…

and whant money for this? oh marvelous…

 

…no

 

it only yoouuurrss opinion, nothing more, nothing less

 

I am done arguing with you Navarh. You have no logic to your arguments, you just want the game your way. Not what the game is suppose to be and what MMOs are about. If you dont like it there is the Door. To me you are a waste of time

[Gavin_Darkl]

Don't worry brother the majority of players won't want a guild to become necessary.

 

I disagree. There are more Guilded people that there are Non Guilded people. You might catch 5 unguilded people in the fleet with over 180 people online.

 

Sorry but Guilds are the way to go with MMOs. Its the corner stone of MMOs. The problem is Players need to take part in their guilds to not allow the BS drama occur. Yea you will get the random cry baby complaining no one is doing their stuff for them. However a quick /gkick is the solution to that.

[Ethern]

I disagree. There are more Guilded people that there are Non Guilded people. You might catch 5 unguilded people in the fleet with over 180 people online.

 

Sorry but Guilds are the way to go with MMOs. Its the corner stone of MMOs. The problem is Players need to take part in their guilds to not allow the BS drama occur. Yea you will get the random cry baby complaining no one is doing their stuff for them. However a quick /gkick is the solution to that.

Oh look! That's this guild addict guy again, who can't understand that a LFG is more aiming at guidless players than anything.

[navarh]

Now that a LFD tool exsist and a LFR tool, there is zero need for a Guild.

lie

progress past LFR into normal and heroic raid-challenges without guild is hard task

 

and where did get lost all that SOCIAL INTERACTION that you talk so much?

you claim that when people have a choice they will ignore all your's social blah-blah-blah completely?

and at the samy time you say that problem is not in this idea of "socialization" but in people… and they MUST be FORCED into…

 

…slavery?

nnnniiiiiceeeee

[Phishums]

Yes please.

 

Same-server LFG would be great. Cross-server's a no-no.

[Gavin_Darkl]

Oh look! That's this guild addict guy again, who can't understand that a LFG is more aiming at guidless players than anything.

 

 

Basically you think this game should be a game were Guilds do not matter. This is not an argument for an MMO. If you dont want a guild and want to just randomly play an Single Player or a Mutliplayer game is for you. NOT an MMO.

[MrDeas]

I'm completely against anything cross-server. It takes away any sense of community. I'm not a huge guild type, neither a serious leveller. I'm still below most of my guilds mains because I took so long deciding on a class etc.

 

I'm rather impartial to a Dungeon Finder but it should be kept on the same server. I've got many people now who I raided with at lower levels and now if I see them online and need people for a group I'll just ask them.

 

People need to remember that there's a reason you get the option to add a party member after finishing a quest. If they were good or made it more enjoyable then add them. You may want to raid with them in the future.

 

That is what creates a community and a Dungeon Finder type of tool doesn't really stop this from happening.

[navarh]

Basically you think this game should be a game were Guilds do not matter

that is what you think, dont misrepresent his word's

 

and don't say "argue" you cant do that

Edited January 29, 2012 by navarh

[Ethern]

Basically you think this game should be a game were Guilds do not matter. This is not an argument for an MMO. If you dont want a guild and want to just randomly play an Single Player or a Mutliplayer game is for you. NOT an MMO.

Where did I state that? Don't force me to report you for putting words in my mouth, particularly when I can play your game:

 

Basically you think this game should be a game were PuGs do not matter. This is not an argument for an MMO.

 

You just do not make sense. Since when socializing and guilds are mandatory to do a mere flashpoint?

[Zalena]

I don't think a full on WoW Style dungeon finder is necessary. It would be awesome to have a global LFG channel implemented though.

[Ethern]

I'm completely against anything cross-server. It takes away any sense of community.

That's the reason why this aspect should be optional.

A well designed LFD has two options:

- one cross server option

- one server wide option.

 

the first option is made for people who are more interested in reaching the largest player's ppol possible to do the group content, and who put other considerations, such as the overabundant socializing at a lower priority.

[GarbonzotheDude]

Basically you think this game should be a game were Guilds do not matter. This is not an argument for an MMO. If you dont want a guild and want to just randomly play an Single Player or a Mutliplayer game is for you. NOT an MMO.

 

***? Where do you get these assertions from in this post and some others I've seen of yours in this thread.

 

Reach much?

 

Wanting some refined mechanics for lfg or the dreaded lfd does not mean the person wants a single player or lobby game. Nor does it somehow equate to the person downplaying guilds. Nor does it make them someone that should not play mmorpgs.

 

Gheesh, careful on that slippery slope of yours. Quite a doozy you got going on there.

[Racheakt]

I spent more than hour looking for a group last nite, needed one more and getting no takers.

 

All 3 of us were about to call it quits when we finaly got the last person.

 

The Real way it works in this game is you Flag your self and spam general in the fleet.

 

I could have leveled in that hour I spent looking for one more.

 

Hand down, the lack of a LFD tool is one of those things that diminishes this game.

 

I know of at least two people who left over the whole pain in the *** to form groups. It is simply that you must drop everything that you are doing to spam fleet general.

 

BW if you refuse to a LFD like tool -- at least MAKE A GLOBAL LFG CHANNEL THAT IS SEEN ON ALL PLANETS!

 

Still the best solution is is a LFD tool