Nitewolfe Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 You are forgetting that it single-handedly destroys the thriving server communities that everyone is a willing and eager member of. Or that it dissolves Guilds just by being mentioned. Or that when people join RDF they sprout hair in funny places and go on murderous rampages. Or that RDF makes the game so easy that babies can play it and are now running wild, slinging poop everywhere. Wow, someone I agree with. They said it wasn't possible! OMG thats it! xlfg tools are really Rakghouls! Oh and we are playing during Rise of the Rakghouls! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalignX Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) OMG thats it! xlfg tools are really Rakghouls! Oh and we are playing during Rise of the Rakghouls! That's as legit an argument as I've heard thus far! Edited January 31, 2012 by MalignX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabarok Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 My guild is a casual guild focused around socializing, helping each other, and being friends. I've known many of my guildmates for 10 years, and for some of us this is our 4th MMO together, while others have played even more MMOs with each other. We'll survive LFD. I've never played WoW, but AFAIK, our WoW branch is still going on though some of them have come to SWTOR and I'm playing with them for the first time. I support a LFD tool, as long as the cross server part is optional and there is a blacklist that applies to the account and not to the character. The player doesn't see the account, they only see the server name & char that they blacklisted, but the LFD tool would be applying the block to the player's account. If there's a player I don't like teaming with, I don't want to be teamed up with their alt, and I'm sure that there's some hardcore raiders who would hate teaming with me and wouldn't want to be paired up with one of my alts. Players who can't play nice with others will find themselves with fewer others to play with but still able to play with like-minded players. I've only ever used a LFD tool once, and the end result was a disaster. I do like the concept though. I'm just too casual a raider to bother with raiding outside my guild. I did play LOTRO and they have a new LFD-like tool (which I believe is NOT cross-server), but I never got around to using it before SWTOR launched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalignX Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) I support a LFD tool, as long as the cross server part is optional and there is a blacklist that applies to the account and not to the character. The player doesn't see the account, they only see the server name & char that they blacklisted, but the LFD tool would be applying the block to the player's account. If there's a player I don't like teaming with, I don't want to be teamed up with their alt, and I'm sure that there's some hardcore raiders who would hate teaming with me and wouldn't want to be paired up with one of my alts. Players who can't play nice with others will find themselves with fewer others to play with but still able to play with like-minded players. . While I don't have any real disagreement with what you've said, they already have the /ignore function. I feel the more power you put into players' hands over other players, the more potential for abuse. (Just read the last 200 pages for this and I can point out a dozen or so I feel *might* abuse it. Heh.) Edited January 31, 2012 by MalignX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabarok Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 While I don't have any real disagreement with what you've said, they already have the /ignore function. I feel more power you put into players hands over other players, the more potential for abuse. (Just read the last 200 pages for this and I can point out a dozen or so I feel *might* abuse it. Heh.) Abuse it how? By isolating themselves from other players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalignX Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Abuse it how? By isolating themselves from other players? If I've witnessed anything in MMOs, it's if you leave monkeys in a room long enough and they'll come up with Shakespeare or nuclear weaponry. Hah. Example off the top of my head: Dude A dislikes Dude B for whatever reason, blacklisted, Dude A's guild blacklists Dude B and now Dude B has a harder time queuing for Flash Points all over Dude A's personal thoughts on him, regardless of what actually transpired. I realize this is an overly basic scenario. But if I can come up with this off the top of my head, someone somewhere will abuse it in ways I haven't considered. This is just my opinion. Edited January 31, 2012 by MalignX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckling Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Nice to know a LFG system is under construction. Even nicer is to know BW doesn't plan to make it cross-server system. In my opinion WoW has a pretty nice system, which covers pretty much everything. The only negative thing is that cross-realm system, which totally brings the worst out of players. I've been reading a lot of complains about "missing tool x" in the forums. I agree that game isn't as polished yet as some other mmorpgs out there, but keep in mind that they've had time to polish their games. BW doesn't have experience in mmorpgs and it shows both in good and bad way. The story based leveling system is awesome, now we just need to get those fancy tools on top of it. Patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabarok Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 If I've witnessed anything in MMOs, if you leave monkeys in a room long enough and they'll come up with Shakespeare or nuclear weaponry. Hah. Example off the top of my head: Dude A dislikes Dude B for whatever reason, blacklisted, Dude A's guild blacklists Dude B and now Dude B has a harder time queuing for Flash Points all over Dude A's personal thoughts on him, regardless of what actually transpired. I realize this is an overly basic scenario. But if I can come up with this off the top of my head, someone somewhere will abuse it in ways I haven't considered. This is just my opinion. You say that like it's a bad thing. Alternately, Dude A's guild is guild full of elitist 'tards and Dude B blacklists all of Dude A's guild so as to never play with them again. Also, there's nothing already stopping such a situation from happening currently with the /ignore. Your scenario works fine with the current game on the same server through use of /ignore. Toss in cross server, and it's hard to complain about a player on a different server. It's also hard for such an action to be very effective at isolation since the pool of players is that much larger. I've played MMOs where guilds have gotten such a bad rep that players would refuse to team with anyone from that guild. Since the cross server blacklist would require a character name & a server name, the best manner to implement the blacklist would be for players to right-click the character while teamed and add them to a blacklist. Players would then have to choose if they want to continue teaming anyway, or leave and try again. The blacklist would also not reveal the account name to the player, nor would it allow the player to enter in an account name (this helps to prevent abuse over the forum) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalignX Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) You say that like it's a bad thing. Yes, I feel giving players any power over other players, is a bad thing. It's just my opinion. Alternately, Dude A's guild is guild full of elitist 'tards and Dude B blacklists all of Dude A's guild so as to never play with them again. Also, there's nothing already stopping such a situation from happening currently with the /ignore. Okay, so we don't really need more than /ignore. Your scenario works fine with the current game on the same server through use of /ignore. Toss in cross server, and it's hard to complain about a player on a different server. It's also hard for such an action to be very effective at isolation since the pool of players is that much larger. Seems like a awful lot of work and worry when you can just /ignore them. I've yet to see a scenario in which Dude B can do anything to Dude A that should warrant long-term punishment, as decided by Dude A. I mean really, if someone Ninjas your stuff or uses harsh language, and you're not content to just ignore them.. seems like more of a problem on your side. Just my opinion. I've played MMOs where guilds have gotten such a bad rep that players would refuse to team with anyone from that guild. Since the cross server blacklist would require a character name & a server name, the best manner to implement the blacklist would be for players to right-click the character while teamed and add them to a blacklist. Players would then have to choose if they want to continue teaming anyway, or leave and try again. The blacklist would also not reveal the account name to the player, nor would it allow the player to enter in an account name (this helps to prevent abuse over the forum) Again, I feel the /ignore function is sufficient, but I respect your right to want something different. Don't wanna derail to much from topic. Welcome to the discussion! I am in favor of the RDF taking into account your /ignore and /friends list as far as who it groups you with. But just because someone is on your /ignore list, doesn't mean they should be punished further through game mechanics. Edited January 31, 2012 by MalignX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitewolfe Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Here are some hard facts that the pro cross server lfd people have. Fact: devs in games with cross server lfd/lfg systems have stated that their system is successful and that their game metrics back up their facts. Fact: The demand for cross server lfd/lfg systems is so high that older games are adding them. Fact: Finding groups is easier with cross server lfd/lfg systems. Fact: cross server lfd/lfg systems allow you to meet more people not less. A cross server friends list would be nice to go along with cross server lfd. Fact: /ignore means youll never be effected by some one you dont want to be grouped with again (thats all the repercussion a individual needs). Any thing else is wrong and borders on a desire for vengeance against some one you dislike. Fact: With a good need/greed system there is no ninja looting. Fact: even wow's lfr does not allow players to see true endgame content. It only allows players to see a a easy mode version. You still need a guild for true endgame progression (hardmodes). What facts do the anti lfd people have? NONE! just personal opinions and personal experiences that as has been proven here in this thread are easily contradicted. For ever persons bad experiences there are more people that have had good experiences. A lfd tool is in the works as we speak and even though BW has said as of NOW they do not want to go cross server they have not said NEVER and have admitted they may have to rethink their stance in the future! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) My guild is a casual guild focused around socializing, helping each other, and being friends. I've known many of my guildmates for 10 years, and for some of us this is our 4th MMO together, while others have played even more MMOs with each other. We'll survive LFD. I've never played WoW, but AFAIK, our WoW branch is still going on though some of them have come to SWTOR and I'm playing with them for the first time. I support a LFD tool, as long as the cross server part is optional and there is a blacklist that applies to the account and not to the character. The player doesn't see the account, they only see the server name & char that they blacklisted, but the LFD tool would be applying the block to the player's account. If there's a player I don't like teaming with, I don't want to be teamed up with their alt, and I'm sure that there's some hardcore raiders who would hate teaming with me and wouldn't want to be paired up with one of my alts. Players who can't play nice with others will find themselves with fewer others to play with but still able to play with like-minded players. I've only ever used a LFD tool once, and the end result was a disaster. I do like the concept though. I'm just too casual a raider to bother with raiding outside my guild. I did play LOTRO and they have a new LFD-like tool (which I believe is NOT cross-server), but I never got around to using it before SWTOR launched. Hello Sabrok, Thanks for your support for the issue at hand. Yeah that is what about of us are asking for, X-LFD with an optional component. If I don't mind waiting around and want to group with people internally then I'll do internal but if the hour is late or early then I'll opt for X-LFD if no one is around. Sounds really reasonable. +1 Edited January 31, 2012 by Touchbass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormravn Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) hay come on bring the love to the game this is 2012 not 1999 you all should have had this in game on launch .....the game tech out today is so advanced then when games like wow first launched .... i mean pvp is a joke there is no player balance in illum .... this should have been addressed also ....there is so many bugs in the game that will take me to long to list.. but come on there should be a dungeon finder already in game not in development phases or ya should have not launched with these MAJOR issues... i mean come on bioware... lucas arts do you all actually play the game have you been to illum its a joke its a jerg fest there is no skill needed to play this game ... it reminds me of wow .. just button mash and zerg so lets player cap illum bring the instance finder into the game work harder and hire more people ....these issues shouldnt even have to be addressed on forums it should already be in game takin care off Edited January 31, 2012 by stormravn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Here are some hard facts that the pro cross server lfd people have. Fact: devs in games with cross server lfd/lfg systems have stated that their system is successful and that their game metrics back up their facts. Fact: The demand for cross server lfd/lfg systems is so high that older games are adding them. Fact: Finding groups is easier with cross server lfd/lfg systems. Fact: cross server lfd/lfg systems allow you to meet more people not less. A cross server friends list would be nice to go along with cross server lfd. Fact: /ignore means youll never be effected by some one you dont want to be grouped with again (thats all the repercussion a individual needs). Any thing else is wrong and borders on a desire for vengeance against some one you dislike. Fact: With a good need/greed system there is no ninja looting. Fact: even wow's lfr does not allow players to see true endgame content. It only allows players to see a a easy mode version. You still need a guild for true endgame progression (hardmodes). What facts do the anti lfd people have? NONE! just personal opinions and personal experiences that as has been proven here in this thread are easily contradicted. For ever persons bad experiences there are more people that have had good experiences. A lfd tool is in the works as we speak and even though BW has said as of NOW they do not want to go cross server they have not said NEVER and have admitted they may have to rethink their stance in the future! Good stuff FACT: Not having an automated port to the dungeon causes massive surges in groups to disband when a tank or healer leaves mid run for real life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormravn Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 this stuff should already be in game ... i mean come on this isnt the dark ages of gamin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSkittles Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Here are some hard facts that the pro cross server lfd people have. Fact: devs in games with cross server lfd/lfg systems have stated that their system is successful and that their game metrics back up their facts. Fact: The demand for cross server lfd/lfg systems is so high that older games are adding them. Fact: Finding groups is easier with cross server lfd/lfg systems. Fact: cross server lfd/lfg systems allow you to meet more people not less. A cross server friends list would be nice to go along with cross server lfd. Fact: /ignore means youll never be effected by some one you dont want to be grouped with again (thats all the repercussion a individual needs). Any thing else is wrong and borders on a desire for vengeance against some one you dislike. Fact: With a good need/greed system there is no ninja looting. Fact: even wow's lfr does not allow players to see true endgame content. It only allows players to see a a easy mode version. You still need a guild for true endgame progression (hardmodes). What facts do the anti lfd people have? NONE! just personal opinions and personal experiences that as has been proven here in this thread are easily contradicted. For ever persons bad experiences there are more people that have had good experiences. A lfd tool is in the works as we speak and even though BW has said as of NOW they do not want to go cross server they have not said NEVER and have admitted they may have to rethink their stance in the future! Hey Nitewolf, mind if I add this to my second post on the front page? You pretty much nailed all of my arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormravn Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 so much love here i feel it i just hope the game devs pay attention and listen to the folks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Hey Nitewolf, mind if I add this to my second post on the front page? You pretty much nailed all of my arguments. Add it for sure, I doubt he'd mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manathayria Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) The problem with the LFG tool of wow is simple. It does first of all make content so hard, that it must be nerfed. This is the case because a blindly picked group will not work as good as a selfmade one. Blizz did nerf content and add buffs because of this, 30% anyone? The problem is, that this content now is too easy for premade groups - so it does affect the people too, who dont want to use the tool. The second problem is the attitude in such groups. Most people using that tool have a few problems with controlling themselfs in puplic. They will rage, insult and just kick random people. This will then lead to the situation we have at wow, many casuals stop playing as they feel treated wrong by these "elitist´s", understandable if you ask me. Many casuals do play tank and heal, dont ask me why but it is the case, maybe because casuals are usually the older type of player and not a young one that wants to kill stuff. Anyways, because of the missing tanks and healers the queues will sky rock. At wow these queues for dps are about 40 min, at cata release they were even higher up to 1 hour. While 40 min wait might sound not so bad in the first place it does not guarentee you a smooth run that can be finished in time. Some runs will take up to almost 2 hours, when several players must be replaced during the run. Approximately 2 hours is the amount of time a dps will need to finish 1 run, including wait time and drama. I really dont understand why there are people who really demand such a tool, as it has so many downsides. A well designed LFG tool would be nice, but the wow tool is a major downfall for the community if it will ever see the light here or at any other MMO. A good tool should let the player choose with whom he wants to play. Casuals could directly look for Casuals only, elitist´s for elitist´s only. But also things like "skip boss", "roll for all loot / class only" would need to be added as a filter there. I'm going to zero in on this last bit if you don't mind. I played in BC - I also full pugged. I was one of the few that didn't resort to /trade to get groups the majority of the time. Magister's Terrace is the only place I recall using trade for every once in a while, and that was when I was in a group already and we wanted a faster run. Other than that, even that place was generally LFD. We usually didn't have issues. Even without standard CC - as a druid I got creative with roots. We didn't 'need' the content nerfed. In fact, the biggest reason I ever saw content nerfed was because of one issue - many classes did not have effective CC. This game isn't lacking the CC, so the excuse that pulls are too hard and therefore need nerfed shouldn't fly. They should be looking at what's actually going on in dungeons and check if it's because people are trying to practice just /faceroll in the fights. Had all servers been 5K to 15K, you would only need a server only LFD tool. If I remember what I read somewhere else correctly: Light is >200. Standard is, if I remember right 200~ 3.5k. Heavy is 3.5k+. They did not build the servers with the thought that they would have a big population on each as far as I can tell. Well if you people who want a Cross server LFD tool really want it. Fine then dint expect compromise from anyone ever again. I came away from No LFD tool as long as it was SERVER only. You guys cant even get off the cross server LFD tool and meet half way. Its all or nothing for you, it will be the same for me. Don't expect any agreement or compromise at all from me and likely other people on this subject. The same ******** battle is happening over AC Respecs. Neither side is willing to compromise and meet half way, why because when 1 side does the compromise the other party says know. Very much like how our Government works, only you are the obstructionist for the mere fact you are not willing to compromise. It has to be 100% your way or no way. I disagree. Maybe you missed my first several posts and what I keep offering as a compromise, which, is repeated again in this post by someone else: A good designed LFD tool must have two options; - one server wide - one cross server. You know why? because the reached players' pool is larger. A intra server is too dependent on the server's population. Since this same population is already idle in the fleet looking for group, your server wide option only would have very limited effects. That's not all or nothing. It offers a help to low pop servers if they don't want to merge. It also offers server only to those that wish to take advantage of that aspect. I'm pretty sure that's as close to meeting in the middle and not having it all one way or another that we're going to get. The original concept for this is that []server only. *Would allow only people from your server to join your group q. This is to include people on your own server that are in the cross server q. []Cross server * Allows players that wish to expose themselves to the larger population and other servers to do so in group - a player in cross server may end up in a group which is full server only. A player which ends up with one or more people in queue for server only, but is queue cross server will only be eligible for server only groups as long as those individuals are in group. As soon as those individuals leave or change queue they will be eligible to get replacements from cross server. The system will not highlight who is or is not queue for server only to help prevent some griefing. Now, I don't know about the rest of you, but that's not screaming 'zomg I quit if it comes in!' and it's not sayong 'NO NO NO server only!' nor is it screaming ' NO NO NO x-server only!'. That is the closest thing I've seen or come up with that would be a compromise. Which, if you feel it isn't, I'd like an explanation. Understand, a compromise is where both sides make concessions. The proposal that's been made is the only one that I see doing this. Which, for those of you new to this series of threads - If I remember correctly - MalignX and the rest of the pro-xserver have already agreed that it'd be ok. So they've already hit a middle ground that is a compromise and made concessions to the other side which allow them to continue playing as they wish. Something I haven't seen anyone even think about responding to /arguing with when added to the system which allows a choice between ques is this. I've suggested giving rewards for having someone in group with you that's guild and/or friended if not a combination of the two - which would reward those that wish to be in a guild. Furthermore, I mentioned the possibility of rewarding server only Queues - though if you're already rewarding friend/guild there's no real point to this other than trying to triple stack what those individuals already get - which is hardly fair for those that don't wish to use that option. I think allowing a max of 2 rewards off 1 queue would be a good idea.As for the point of rewarding under-represented roles, I would be all for it - if they chose to allow those rewards in pre-formed groups, otherwise the system discourages some community and does the exact opposite of what I think bioware would want. This may encourage some team play more than spamming random pug over the x-server. That again, offers more of a concession/compromise which gives a tangible reward for taking part in building your server's community. Those that wish to take part in x-server will likely just grab a friend that's in guild and hit it if the social/small bonuses are good enough to make them want them. There may be some level brackets which will 'need' more of a cross server run than server only, but if you have at least a few friends or guildies on, you'll still get those same rewards as for server only queues. Now - something some of you that are hard line - no - to cross server, get this. I prefer server only, however, I get that that is too confining to some people, and I have no issues with them having options, as long as I get them too. As for 'x-server kills guilds' I'm sorry, but my guild in WoW is thriving with x-server. Only a few lone wolves hit x-server without asking guild. Generally, we grab from guild first because we know for a fact that it's more likely that we'll do well with a guild group than a full pug group. We aren't dying because of x-server, we're doing well, and we're using the system to augment our play - not letting it become the only way we play. As for raiding with LFR in that guild? Our lower geared members hit it and the LFD/x-LFD with guild and with guild alts as needed to allow them to become geared enough to be able to catch up with the rest of the guild for normal raid progression without us having to change around raid nights to get them up with the rest. The guild I'm in by the way, rather fluid in that we have a few that are military who have occasionally had to vanish for months on end because of work. This means we've had to build a strong second line of raiders that don't mind rotating out off and on when they're gone/home. The fact is, my experience states that LFD does not hit a guild that has a strong back bone, nor does it hit the smaller mom and pop type guilds with any force. However, everyone will have a different experience than mine - as we are all different people from different servers and situations. I really can't find any sympathy for anyone that allows a system to use and run their game play rather than using the system to do what they want if they're looking to be social. Another point I would like to make - the few friends I have that quit WoW over the LFD tool - chose to move away from the server(s) we started on and stopped grouping with guild/friends. They chose not to be part of the community and then *****ed that x-LFD was the reason. The truth is, they moved away from and stopped grouping with friends - which in turn caused a few of their LFD experiences to go sour. It was not the system's fault they left - it was their fault for choosing a different style of play and moving away from the community they were a part of. It is not the x-LFD system's fault if you choose to use it as the only means to group and refuse to utilize your guild or friend's lists, it is your fault. As for my play in this game for those that are curious - no, I have not joined a guild. My primary reason for this is I generally am duo with one of my friends and do not have any plans on raiding - though I do want to hit hard modes occasionally. I do not, however, want to join a guild for those, I rather find a nice RP guild to socialize with, and if they plan on running HM with me and not having me pug, so be it. Social and RP guilds as far as my experience has shown me, are not hit by the LFM/LFD system one bit because we are in it for different reasons than the rest of you. Concessions: a : the act or an instance of conceding (as by granting something as a right, accepting something as true, or acknowledging defeat) b : the admitting of a point claimed in argument 2 : something conceded or granted: a : acknowledgment, admission b : something done or agreed to usually grudgingly in order to reach an agreement or improve a situation Compromise: a : settlement of differences by arbitration or by consent reached by mutual concessions b : something intermediate between or blending qualities of two different things (Edited by moving one paragraph up so it may make more sense with where it was placed) Edited January 31, 2012 by Manathayria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSkittles Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Add it for sure, I doubt he'd mind Actually was able to add it after your post Touch, hope you don't mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Another quality post by Manathayria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSkittles Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Hints of more casual-friendly content....maybe with an automated system to get us casuals more easily into content...hmmm, maybe? (I know, I'm fooling myself but a boys gotta dream) Quote from an interview with Shawn Ketcherside: "ZAM: This is me guessing, and you don't have to answer this but... do you think we might see easier versions of operations in the works so that less progression-focused players can experience those instances without the endgame "commitment?" I really enjoyed both Eternity Vault and Karagga's Palace; they're a lot of fun to tackle with friends! Any... comments on that? Shawn: I can tease a little bit here. Those are some things that we're looking at and there may be some things coming up to make sure that the more casual players can enjoy all the rest of that content." http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=28895&storypage=2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 All those little things should be editted into the front section Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manathayria Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Another quality post by Manathayria Sadly, you know some of the anti-x-lfd people will zero in on the fact I can deal with a cross server system and tune out much of what I had to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSkittles Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) All those little things should be editted into the front section Edited into your post? Edited before your post? Not sure what you mean because I put it onto the first page. Oh you mean Mana's new post should be edited onto the first page. lol. Too bad I can't delete this post. Edited January 31, 2012 by BlueSkittles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Just put them in order is what I meant We need a compilation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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