PvP - How it is ...deal with it

[Ealthan]

This is clearly an issue. You have people who have bought 15 and 20 bags with no loot or the same piece of loot. It doesn't make sense. I could buy 5 bags and get 5 pieces of loot, but some else can open 4 times that with no results? It makes no sense.

 

yes it is clearly an issue, an issue that has nothing to do with the original post, he's talking about a stat and people complaining about that stat as if it's somehow the reason that they are being killed in battles, he's not talking about the blooming loot system.

 

The system is flawed because many people will basically be wasting currency but that's not what people are talking about, having a go at the op because of the loot system is like blaming cheese for the french, we're having a discussion about why people feel that a stat in the game is responsible for them being unable to compete in pvp and then people start coming in with a totally random subject and now the OP gets an attack for nothing.

[MPagano]

where does the currency come from for these bags? or are you too ignorant too realize that's how the game works?

 

The reward system is seriously flawed to be sure but it is a pvp reward system and thats not what the OP is getting at, Do you think the players who happened to be lucky with their bags have had an unfair advantage over you? no they have the exact same chance as you have, I agree this needs to be changed but please read what your saying.

 

there are people out there probably opened hundreds of bags for their loot, thought about that? The op is geting at people complaining about the expertise stat if your complaint is about the loot system then your on the wrong thread and your having a go at someone for a totally unrelated topic, well done you.

 

He's right the more time you put into pvp the more currency that you have to open bags, what part of this are you having difficulty with? just because your not getting the items you want out said bags is no reason to start mouthing off at someone who's talking about an in game attribute and there are even people here to prove my earlier point, people just like to complain, they don't even know what they are supposed to be complaining about, any little sense of injustice leads to people like I've just replied too, your the problem with pvp.

 

If the OP's point was that expertise is fine as it's implemented BECAUSE everyone can sink in the time to acquire it then I made a very pertinent point. The amount of time required by any one person to acquire gear through this random system has a very large range of values and a totally random distribution throughout the range.

 

That's what some of us are pointing out. You put in a pvp stat- fine. Great, even. But if two peoples' grind towards collecting that stat is so inconsistent and left up to nothing (hence my original post in the thread), it's going to piss people off. If I sink 20 hours into grinding warzones, and I get 2 pieces of unique gear (this is actually happening with some players) while another player completes dailies one day and gets a unique piece from each bag then I'm going to be upset.

 

Since you agree with me and the OP that expertise stat is fine, you have to choose the next issue: either you think the distribution of this loot (and stat) is currently fair or you agree that having this stat in conjunction with the way it's distributed is unfair, unfun, and illogical.

 

Everyone needs to relax.

[Resych]

yes it is clearly an issue, an issue that has nothing to do with the original post, he's talking about a stat and people complaining about that stat as if it's somehow the reason that they are being killed in battles, he's not talking about the blooming loot system.

 

The system is flawed because many people will basically be wasting currency but that's not what people are talking about, having a go at the op because of the loot system is like blaming cheese for the french, we're having a discussion about why people feel that a stat in the game is responsible for them being unable to compete in pvp and then people start coming in with a totally random subject and now the OP gets an attack for nothing.

 

Actually the OP made a claim that expertise is a measure of the amount of time spent PvPing so the loot system is relevant to the thread.

[MPagano]

It's adorable how you so valiantly defend the OP, but I think YOU need to read the post.

 

His entire post is making the assertion that you should expect returns in gear and expertise to be in direct proportions with time spent. If you spend 10 hours playing, you won't be as geared as someone who spent 100. That's not really the case as some of us are trying to explain to you IF YOU WOULD JUST LOOK OVER HERE AND STOP KISSING THE OP ON THE MOUTH WITH YOUR EYES CLOSED.

Edited January 27, 2012 by MPagano

[Ealthan]

yes and you need to sink in the time to open bags in order to get loot, the more time you sink in to get bags, the more bags you open, the greater number of chances you have to gain the loot, just because your unlucky does not mean that the more time you sink into pvp the greater your chance of getting all of your items, someone plays a couple of games and gets a great item, thats luck, they then wait two months on their next bit, thats bad luck.

 

 

can I simplify it for you?

 

Time spent = Currency

 

Currency = bag

 

Bag = chance at loot

 

more bags than player A = greater chance of loot

 

Q.E.D

 

Time spent = greater chance of loot.

 

where in that is the op wrong?

[Ealthan]

I'm not kissing anyone, you clearly have a poor understanding of what people are actually saying and are too far up your own backside to even contemplate that you may be wrong.

 

 

TIME SPENT DOES EQUAL LOOT, just because your unlucky and are having a cry about that doesn't make the op wrong or me kiss anyone, grow up child, you will get along much better.

[nubzz]

Here's how it works for you players that want to play very little and be rewarded for simply logging on:

 

Let's say I have been playing for a whole week..but I am actually pretty good with my class, I deserve a serious handicap because I wasn't in on it to farm gear from day one? I should be penalized as a new player? This will propagate an older pvp community with few new faces IMO.

It will create frustration in the future, oh wait it already is.

Edited January 27, 2012 by nubzz

[Razot]

These pro expertise WoW kiddies are really funny considering that all of the their conclusions are based on WoW mechanics.

 

Then sooner or later the success of WoW comes into play so they must be right, although i would like to add that McDonald's has sold over 247 billion burgers that can barely be passed off as a food.. Many of us wouldnt consider WoW to be by any means the pinnacle of MMO's.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Razot

[MPagano]

Maybe you're oversimplifying things. Do you understand that there are actually instances right now where someone has turned in dailies ONCE by playing and winning 10 matches, and has gone on to finish that day with 3, 4 or 5 unique pieces of gear. Another player will do dailies for a month and receive 8 pairs of boots and centurion commendations. Are you really not grasping this discrepancy? It's not about bad luck. It's about using a technology that doesn't work (RNGs). It's a complete crapshoot. You could play for days and days and days and have 0 expertise at the end. Someone could play for 1 day and have 250 expertise. How is this ok with you?

 

You keep reducing this down to time spent = greater chance at loot. Let me speak in your language, then. Time spent = more bags. But if the drop rates on those bags is completely arbitrary then you can't connect time spent to gear acquired.

 

If you see someone with gear, you can't say "he plays a lot". Because they could have just gotten all their items in the first 10 bags they bought. And you might see someone with 1 piece of gear and think he doesn't play much meanwhile he's bought 35 bags

[Ealthan]

It's adorable how you so valiantly defend the OP, but I think YOU need to read the post.

 

His entire post is making the assertion that you should expect returns in gear and expertise to be in direct proportions with time spent. If you spend 10 hours playing, you won't be as geared as someone who spent 100. That's not really the case as some of us are trying to explain to you IF YOU WOULD JUST LOOK OVER HERE AND STOP KISSING THE OP ON THE MOUTH WITH YOUR EYES CLOSED.

 

No thats not his entire post, he's talking about other people complaining about the expertise stat, people who have just leveled to 50 and are having a bad time in their pvp because there are people who got there before them, i.e people who played more at first and have things quicker, considering that you cannot formulate a reply without some vague accusations about peoples sexuality then I will waste no more of my time on you, run along now and let the grown ups speak, and he's right if you do spend ten hours a week playing you won't have as much as people who played 100, this is FACT it doesn't matter that you yourself haven't been that lucky with your loot roll, feel free to make another post about how you should get an epic from every bag all you want, I will come and support your suggestion to change the loot system.

 

But if its debate your after then best leave the playground kissing stuff at the door, most of us left such things in school where they belong.

[Resych]

yes and you need to sink in the time to open bags in order to get loot, the more time you sink in to get bags, the more bags you open, the greater number of chances you have to gain the loot, just because your unlucky does not mean that the more time you sink into pvp the greater your chance of getting all of your items, someone plays a couple of games and gets a great item, thats luck, they then wait two months on their next bit, thats bad luck.

 

 

can I simplify it for you?

 

Time spent = Currency

 

Currency = bag

 

Bag = chance at loot

 

more bags than player A = greater chance of loot

 

Q.E.D

 

Time spent = greater chance of loot.

 

where in that is the op wrong?

 

You are equating "chance of loot" with actual loot. They are not equal. Ask anyone if they would rather have the item or a chance at the item.

 

You can't make the claim that someone with a full set of champion gear spent more time than someone who doesn't. He may have spent more time or he might just be lucky. So time spent is not the only deciding factor.

[Cleanx]

I am lvl 47 now. Packing my gear with as much

Expertise aa possible. Looking forward to get into

The wzs at 50, and prove to all the whiners i will do perfectly

Fine without all the 50 gear. How? I play smart,

And im freaking good.

[MPagano]

TIME SPENT DOES EQUAL LOOT, just because your unlucky and are having a cry about that doesn't make the op wrong or me kiss anyone, grow up child, you will get along much better.

 

No...no it doesn't. Time spent = more chances to get loot. Are you actually arguing in defense of the original claim that time spent = expertise is working the way it should? There's absolutely no standardization. So my time sunk isn't the same as another person's time sunk? I think I'm being pretty mature here while making some caustic remarks regarding your ability to debate. Stay focused, champ.

 

Are you telling me that the amount of time invested should be different for everyone, and have such a large range of values? Should it really take anywhere from 1 day to 1 month to get 1 item with expertise? I'm just trying to pin you to something here.

Edited January 27, 2012 by MPagano

[MPagano]

I am lvl 47 now. Packing my gear with as much

Expertise aa possible. Looking forward to get into

The wzs at 50, and prove to all the whiners i will do perfectly

Fine without all the 50 gear. How? I play smart,

And im freaking good.

 

Can't wait!

[Sarlin]

I don't really see a huge problem here, but that's probably because I was one of the first players on the server to get lots of expertise gear at 50.

 

If the problem is that new 50s are getting stomped in warzones, then the fix is pretty easy: make Centurion gear much easier to obtain (as of now, it would be way harder to get a full Centurion set compared to Champion). I'm talking reduce the price of these pieces by 80% or maybe more to allow players who PvP for a week or two to have nearly a full set. This set is inferior to people who have been playing a ton already, but Centurion is still perfectly able to compete in warzones.

 

And if people are still way too upset about spending a week of feeling powerless in warzones, make Tionese commendations and Centurion commendations the same thing, allowing PvP and PvE to get each others starting sets with ease. That way, if a player wanted, they could get the entry level PvP gear via PvE, which I doubt anyone who PvP's seriously would complain about. A side effect there is that tionese gear would be easy to obtain, but I'd say that's fine too since that gear is in the same boat as Centurion: It's harder to obtain than Columi for most pieces. Just recolor these pieces blue and people won't complain that "Bioware is making epics too easy to get!", plus it gives a better sense of character progression to the player.

 

Removing expertise, or gear in general in PvP is a huge mistake. Without character progression in PvP (be it rankings, gear, or what-have-you) players will get bored and leave. Character progression is a requirement in a subscription based MMO.

 

I really cannot stress how removing expertise is a really, really bad idea. People who suggest this desire a game where there is no progression, but skill vs skill only. As I said before, this cannot happen in an subscription based MMORPG structured like WoW or similar games. PvE geared players dominating PvP also is a terrible side effect that isn't desired.

[nubzz]

Time spent getting your expletive handed to you = gear. Neat system, quite original too. The resilience system in wow was at least more gradual about obtaining and upgrading, here it is just wacky.

[nubzz]

I don't really see a huge problem here, but that's probably because I was one of the first players on the server to get lots of expertise gear at 50.

 

If the problem is that new 50s are getting stomped in warzones, then the fix is pretty easy: make Centurion gear much easier to obtain (as of now, it would be way harder to get a full Centurion set compared to Champion). I'm talking reduce the price of these pieces by 80% or maybe more to allow players who PvP for a week or two to have nearly a full set. This set is inferior to people who have been playing a ton already, but Centurion is still perfectly able to compete in warzones.

 

And if people are still way too upset about spending a week of feeling powerless in warzones, make Tionese commendations and Centurion commendations the same thing, allowing PvP and PvE to get each others starting sets with ease. That way, if a player wanted, they could get the entry level PvP gear via PvE, which I doubt anyone who PvP's seriously would complain about. A side effect there is that tionese gear would be easy to obtain, but I'd say that's fine too since that gear is in the same boat as Centurion: It's harder to obtain than Columi for most pieces. Just recolor these pieces blue and people won't complain that "Bioware is making epics too easy to get!", plus it gives a better sense of character progression to the player.

 

Removing expertise, or gear in general in PvP is a huge mistake. Without character progression in PvP (be it rankings, gear, or what-have-you) players will get bored and leave. Character progression is a requirement in a subscription based MMO.

 

I really cannot stress how removing expertise is a really, really bad idea. People who suggest this desire a game where there is no progression, but skill vs skill only. As I said before, this cannot happen in an subscription based MMORPG structured like WoW or similar games. PvE geared players dominating PvP also is a terrible side effect that isn't desired.

 

Why does it need expertise? Why can't it just be neat looking gear with very nice regular stats?

[BDutch]

Then sooner or later the success of WoW comes into play so they must be right, although i would like to add that McDonald's has sold over 247 billion burgers that can barely be passed off as a food.. Many of us wouldnt consider WoW to be by any means the pinnacle of MMO's.

 

It doesn't even matter if we don't have the rest of WoW's resources to work with. Without the larger pool of players to rate/match-make due to arenas and battlegroups, WoW's system wouldn't work for WoW in the long-run either.

[CrunchyGremlin]

PvP Gear drops or destroyed on release.

Not how long you have been playing but how good you are. both skill and economy.

[MPagano]

I'm ok with getting tromped in WZs. I'm just not ok with the fact that I'm grinding these dailies with no way to know how much progress I'm making. it's completely arbitrary. Someone on my server might be geared in 2 weeks, and I might not have a piece of gear in 2 weeks.

 

Why don't you nay-sayers go over to this thread and explain to poeple that the system is working well.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=241946

[Ealthan]

Maybe you're oversimplifying things. Do you understand that there are actually instances right now where someone has turned in dailies ONCE by playing and winning 10 matches, and has gone on to finish that day with 3, 4 or 5 unique pieces of gear. Another player will do dailies for a month and receive 8 pairs of boots and centurion commendations. Are you really not grasping this discrepancy? It's not about bad luck. It's about using a technology that doesn't work (RNGs). It's a complete crapshoot. You could play for days and days and days and have 0 expertise at the end. Someone could play for 1 day and have 250 expertise. How is this ok with you?

 

You keep reducing this down to time spent = greater chance at loot. Let me speak in your language, then. Time spent = more bags. But if the drop rates on those bags is completely arbitrary then you can't connect time spent to gear acquired.

 

If you see someone with gear, you can't say "he plays a lot". Because they could have just gotten all their items in the first 10 bags they bought. And you might see someone with 1 piece of gear and think he doesn't play much meanwhile he's bought 35 bags

 

I've already more than once grasped your discrepancy, please go and read anyone of the times that I have said that the loot system is unfair, go on go and actually read it,

 

People have been complaining about the expertise stat.

 

People that don't have it (same in every game btw, just change expertise to whatever miniscule reason that people will blame for being killed in pvp, bad loot system for example)

 

The op is saying that it does not matter if a person has expertise or not, do you realise that there are people with stacked expertise still being killed in pvp? he's saying that expertise is not the blame of people being killed in pvp, there are people already after a month calling for a buggy game to be tinkered with because they are being killed in pvp, WHAT PART OF THAT ARE YOU MISSING? people should be calling for the bugs to be fixed the game play to be ironed out, but no there's people complaining about expertise, you yourself are complaining because all your loot isn't purple and other peoples are, believe me there are people who have spent more time on it than you and gotten less, that's how chance works, but it doesn't escape from the fact that if you don't pvp then you don't get the means to buy these bags, of course people who open one bag a day aren't going to have a full set after x amount of days, but the guy who pvp's 16 hours a day and buys 16 hours worth of bags is more than likely gonna hit the jackpot far more than the guy who plays for 1 hour, its simple maths you can't escape that FACT no matter how unlucky one or two people might be, you CANNOT judge an entire game simply by your own experience of it.

 

 

I'M NOT SAYING THE LOOT SYSTEM IS FAIR what part of this are you having difficulty grasping? but facts are, the more you put in the more you get out, your loot will come eventually, it won't be that when the next three bags you open have the items you need, you will be complaining about something else by then.

 

Like I said, I encourage you to create a thread about the loot system, I'm sure it will gather alot of support, I myself would support it.

 

but facts are, 1000 bags are better than 10, the guy who plays for ten hours gets ten bags, the guy who plays for 168 hours gets 168 bags (i know this isn't exact figures) are you honestly trying to tell me that those 10 bags all have the best loot? no of course they don't chances are the guy with the 168 bags is getting lucky, Q.E.D time spent = rewards

[DaftFett]

I don't really see a huge problem here, but that's probably because I was one of the first players on the server to get lots of expertise gear at 50.

 

If the problem is that new 50s are getting stomped in warzones, then the fix is pretty easy: make Centurion gear much easier to obtain (as of now, it would be way harder to get a full Centurion set compared to Champion). I'm talking reduce the price of these pieces by 80% or maybe more to allow players who PvP for a week or two to have nearly a full set. This set is inferior to people who have been playing a ton already, but Centurion is still perfectly able to compete in warzones.

 

And if people are still way too upset about spending a week of feeling powerless in warzones, make Tionese commendations and Centurion commendations the same thing, allowing PvP and PvE to get each others starting sets with ease. That way, if a player wanted, they could get the entry level PvP gear via PvE, which I doubt anyone who PvP's seriously would complain about. A side effect there is that tionese gear would be easy to obtain, but I'd say that's fine too since that gear is in the same boat as Centurion: It's harder to obtain than Columi for most pieces. Just recolor these pieces blue and people won't complain that "Bioware is making epics too easy to get!", plus it gives a better sense of character progression to the player.

 

Removing expertise, or gear in general in PvP is a huge mistake. Without character progression in PvP (be it rankings, gear, or what-have-you) players will get bored and leave. Character progression is a requirement in a subscription based MMO.

 

I really cannot stress how removing expertise is a really, really bad idea. People who suggest this desire a game where there is no progression, but skill vs skill only. As I said before, this cannot happen in an subscription based MMORPG structured like WoW or similar games. PvE geared players dominating PvP also is a terrible side effect that isn't desired.

 

 

Good idea, /bump

[Darkraid]

Shut your face dude.

 

23 days till subs closed.

[Roak]

Why do you care, didn't you unsubb?

 

yes, yes I did.

[Sarlin]

Why does it need expertise? Why can't it just be neat looking gear with very nice regular stats?

It could be, but this is the inferior option of splitting PvE and PvP progression. Aesthetics are also completely opinionated, so this solution could even result in people who want to PvP doing PvE (which they don't like) in order to get gear. Several players also do not care about aesthetics.

 

Does it need to be expertise exactly? No, but PvP players should become better or the best by PvPing. The question here is should Top Raider Guy be just as viable as Top PvP Guy in PvP? The answer is no, mostly because this removes an entire path of character progression (Read: time players play the game). So the reason why it's inferior is that it could remove nearly half of the time players spend playing the game and progressing their character. No one wants this, not even the players. Of course, with so many people quitting or rerolling, that may not be an issue, but that's irrelevant because I'm speaking on terms of a working system, not a broken one. What I proposed is that it's easy to get entry level gear, but hard to get the top gear (which isn't *that* much better). This keeps it a bit more fair, and keeps progression pretty much the same.

 

Also the random loot system is stupid. I'd much rather spend 3 hours PvPing and progressing to another battlemaster piece (Say 1/4 the way) rather than looking back and saying "Oh hey, no battlemaster commendations again, I just wasted 3 hours of my time". Too frustrating for players, and some are quitting because of this.