Leave space combat alone!

[loanstarr]

Only if you ignore EVERY factor that contributes to a successful game. And don't forget, SWG lasted 8 years.

 

Do we really need to go down this road again?

 

Wow is a fantasy/elf game. SWG is a Star Wars/Sci-fi game.

 

Wow has a lot of subs.

 

SWG didn't have a lot of subs prior to closing.

 

Therefore, SWTOR is doomed to failure because it is a Star Wars/Sci-fi game and not a Fantasy/elf game. That's a "simple conclusion based on what's out there right now."

 

Makes sense right?

 

uh...no.

 

Terrible logic.

 

your saying I cannot come to a reasonable conclusion by looking at the top ten MMO's out there today, based on what people are enjoying? That's ridiculous. Leaders in business do this everyday, its a basic starting point when considering something.

[Mikkeos]

Here are just some of the online games with (space) flight components I played:

 

Jumpgate: First person, went mostly under the radar for most people, realistic physics engine. Lovely space battles, but laggy when loads of people were in a system. Still running.

Easy to control, not as easy to master. Jumpgate Evolution should be out later this year - I hope.

 

EVE Online: Sim, 3rd person. running strong, massive space and economics. Running strong. Only during the daily 30 minute maintenance window less than 30k people online. One universe. Easy to control, but it takes a bit to get used to all the features (which work exactly the same).

I have yet to find one other game that pulls me in as much as EVE does. Singleplayer or online.

A little chuckle for people in the know:

 

Earth&Beyond: First person. Slaughtered when EA took over and trashed the bugfixing, the community and the new features. Easy to control, but laggy with many people online.

 

WOW: Ever been riding a dragon or one of the other flying mounts, maybe runnning a lance through an opponent? Sadly not an option vs other people. Easy to control.

They could implement a 'flight sim' in short order. Vehicle combat is already implemented.

 

SWG: First person, Sweet and easy to control. Gone due to licence expiring.

 

 

In not a single one of those games did I feel as alone as I do in SWTOR - ever.

[Xumagai]

how did BW not do their jobs or mislead anybody? They never stated space combat was anything more that what it is now in game.

 

 

 

 

 

because they like it the way it is now. And they have a different opinion than you

 

1. They stated there would be exciting space combat with many different missions to do. It's simple and boring and there are a total of five unique missions. Not exactly getting the job done.

2. The way it is now? Nobody is wondering why we only have five missions after years of work? Even with the rails and everything taken out of perspective the lack of work done on this aspect is gross.

[Jakarn]

I agree with the op, like it the way it is. A few more missions and I will be happy. The way I see it one of your crew members is pilioting the ship or directing it.

 

I hate flight sims I spend most of my time trying to work out where I'm suppose to be, or flying out of the battle zone and trying to work out how to get back. The way space combat in this game is, is great, your straight into the battle and it only takes a couple of minutes I don't want to spend a half hour doing it. Just something to do while I do some crafting, or something a little different that is not to overwhelming.

[Saitada]

your saying I cannot come to a reasonable conclusion by looking at the top ten MMO's out there today, based on what people are enjoying? That's ridiculous. Leaders in business do this everyday, its a basic starting point when considering something.

 

Ok so. Let me use your logic here with an obviously overblown comparison (in other words, take this with a grain of salt).

 

If every restaurant in the world only served chicken soup, or some variation of chicken soup, and one restaurant out in an oasis in the Gobi desert (a niche market to be sure... like EVE online) started serving a sandwich with their chicken soup but wasn't wildly successful and didn't manage to compete with the most successful chicken soup serving restaurant in new York City (WoW).. this means that obviously by default nobody wants to have a sandwich with their soup, because no other successful restaurant has done it..

 

...or god forbid, maybe a steak, some fries and a glass of beer instead of soup?

 

Just because there is a limited number of a particular type of game out there does not mean that is because that is all people want. The MMO genre started with fantasy based games, and has stuck true to form for the majority of their existence because it works.. it works because that is basically all that is out there not because there isn't any interest for other types of MMO's. If there was no interest at all, games like EVE, STO, SWTOR, JUMP GATE, etc wouldn't even exist.

 

The fact that companies don't like to take risks doesn't factor in anywhere there? If it works, don't fix it?

 

Some space themed MMO's failed, not because their wasn't interest, but because they were so badly designed and broken.. that people simply refused to play drek.

 

Anyway... I'm going to go spend the rest of the evening with my wife. Ya'll take care.

 

~Saitada

Edited January 29, 2012 by Saitada

[Minack]

your saying I cannot come to a reasonable conclusion by looking at the top ten MMO's out there today, based on what people are enjoying? That's ridiculous. Leaders in business do this everyday, its a basic starting point when considering something.

 

You tell me. I used your same logic to come to a conclusion about TOR. I mean, who needs to consider things like marketing, or implementation, state of tech at the time of implementation, developer etc? Nah, all those details get in the way of a simple conclusion.

 

 

Speaking of top ten MMOS...Just googling "top ten mmos" (because I'm lazy)

 

Oh and btw, mind telling me who the #7 and #5 spots are.

 

Or this one. Same site, different author.

 

Thanks.

 

 

You might disagree with that list (I certainly do) but two of the games you claim MMO players don't like are still popular enough to be included on that list (according to this author anyway).

Edited January 29, 2012 by Minack

[cocun]

I agree with the op, like it the way it is. A few more missions and I will be happy. The way I see it one of your crew members is pilioting the ship or directing it.

 

I hate flight sims I spend most of my time trying to work out where I'm suppose to be, or flying out of the battle zone and trying to work out how to get back. The way space combat in this game is, is great, your straight into the battle and it only takes a couple of minutes I don't want to spend a half hour doing it. Just something to do while I do some crafting, or something a little different that is not to overwhelming.

 

God forbid you have to think while playing a video game. Another example of the unwashed masses forcing their stupid mind set on the rest of us normal people who want to be challenged while playing a game. Not this hand holding fest that you all seem so fond of. Says more about your personality than you think.

Edited January 29, 2012 by cocun

[USMCG_PANZER]

your saying I cannot come to a reasonable conclusion by looking at the top ten MMO's out there today, based on what people are enjoying? That's ridiculous. Leaders in business do this everyday, its a basic starting point when considering something.

 

Stating that "Most MMO players don't like flight-sim combat" is not a reasonable conclusion, just a terrible generalization.

 

How many people love MMOs and love flight sims? Do you have access to that information?

 

If "top 10" is how we are going to base our ridiculous assumption, how many MMOs have truly mixed both genres? How many that had a big-name franchise like Star Wars to drive them? Star Wars Galaxies?

 

I would argue that there were many things that led to SWGs demise other than Jump to Lightspeed and flight-sim combat - Namely, the success of WoW, the release of numerous MMOs that fractured the market, the treatment of the property by SOE, the Combat Upgrade, and the NGE.

 

Or do we want to grasp at anecdotal evidence by looking at anything that was "space" and an "MMO." Maybe EVE Online? Hardly a flight-sim.

[Mikeni]

 

If every restaurant in the world only served chicken soup, or some variation of chicken soup.....

 

 

You should have used cupcakes in your analogy!

[Saitada]

You should have used cupcakes in your analogy!

 

I thought about that after I had posted it, but I'm making home-made chicken soup (thus why I was grilling chicken earlier) so that kinda was forefront in my mind lol.

 

~Saitada

[Jakarn]

God forbid you have to think while playing a video game. Another example of the unwashed masses forcing their stupid mind set on the rest of us normal people who want to be challenged while playing a game. Not this hand holding fest that you all seem so fond of. Says more about your personality than you think.

 

I'm not forcing anything on you, arn't you forcing your way of playing on me ? Just stating my opinion. Why do we always have to be thinking when playing a game ? Some times just want to switch off and relax. I do enough thinking in my every day life, gaming is a hobby.

 

Space combat reminds me of the arcade games I use to play when I was a kid (graphics are alot better though) and is fun. They were the same way, guided you to where you had to be and you just had to worry about shooting the bad guys. The best thing is they are quick I don't want to spend an hour flying around looking for the enemy.

 

The space combat can be challenging play an orange mission and see how you go, hand eye cordination is using your brain to you know.

[Elblai]

My goodness, did this thread explode since I last read it.

 

Now, I only had time to take a cursory glance over the 20+ pages that have been placed since I posted, but in all of it I see the same thing:

 

People feeling entitled (on both sides). You're not. Get over it. I want to see a change in space combat too, but just because I pay them $15 a month does NOT mean they have to "redeem an integral part of their product" or anything that sounds similar. BioWare decides what is integral to their product, not you. It doesn't matter what was popular or what wasn't, who played what game and who didn't. BioWare will still do what they think is best. We may or may not agree. That's what makes them the Devs and us the subscribers - they make a thing, we pay for it. They owe us nothing.

 

That said, I think space combat should be a small sandbox mini-game where you can control the direction you fly. Your ship would always move forward, but you choose where, and there would be soft-borders on the edge that turn you about if you go too far.

Ala Star Fox 64.

 

I also think this would make Space Flashpoints easy to create, as well as a Space PvP map - where each faction has its own objectives as well as dealing with the opposing team.

 

This gives both the freedom that we change-seekers are looking for (myself included) as well as keeping the simplistic controls we have now. Hell, not a single button would need to change control-wise for this to work.

 

Edit: In addition to the above, I also feel this solution would keep the genuine Star Wars feel of the universe: Notice that in every space combat in the movies, the fighters and cruisers constantly move forward? Even the dreadnoughts only went forward. They did not have a "Reverse" function that I've seen some posters say they'd like. ("They're coming around for another pass!" as opposed to "They're hovering over the objective!") Also notice that in every space scene all of the fighters on both sides are always facing "Up" even though there is no "Up" in space. In the movies, these 'Space' fighters are treated very much like planes - even more so in the prequel trilogy. Is this true to form of a real space encounter? Probably not. But we're talking about Star Wars, not reality.

 

Just my two cents, on that.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Elblai

[trailermaster]

My goodness, did this thread explode since I last read it.

 

Now, I only had time to take a cursory glance over the 20+ pages that have been placed since I posted, but in all of it I see the same thing:

 

People feeling entitled (on both sides). You're not. Get over it. I want to see a change in space combat too, but just because I pay them $15 a month does NOT mean they have to "redeem an integral part of their product" or anything that sounds similar. BioWare decides what is integral to their product, not you. It doesn't matter what was popular or what wasn't, who played what game and who didn't. BioWare will still do what they think is best. We may or may not agree. That's what makes them the Devs and us the subscribers - they make a thing, we pay for it. They owe us nothing.

 

That said, I think space combat should be a small sandbox mini-game where you can control the direction you fly. Your ship would always move forward, but you choose where, and there would be soft-borders on the edge that turn you about if you go too far.

Ala Star Fox 64.

 

I also think this would make Space Flashpoints easy to create, as well as a Space PvP map - where each faction has its own objectives as well as dealing with the opposing team.

 

This gives both the freedom that we change-seekers are looking for (myself included) as well as keeping the simplistic controls we have now. Hell, not a single button would need to change control-wise for this to work.

 

Edit: In addition to the above, I also feel this solution would keep the genuine Star Wars feel of the universe: Notice that in every space combat in the movies, the fighters and cruisers constantly move forward? Even the dreadnoughts only went forward. They did not have a "Reverse" function that I've seen some posters say they'd like. ("They're coming around for another pass!" as opposed to "They're hovering over the objective!") Also notice that in every space scene all of the fighters on both sides are always facing "Up" even though there is no "Up" in space. In the movies, these 'Space' fighters are treated very much like planes - even more so in the prequel trilogy. Is this true to form of a real space encounter? Probably not. But we're talking about Star Wars, not reality.

 

Just my two cents, on that.

 

I disagree i think the devs do owe us "the players" quite a bit seeing as the million+ of us put together earns the company millions EVERY MONTH. If the players end up being unhappy in the end and revert back to WoW or start on a new game or just leave in general they can be out BIG bucks for not listening to what the players want and need. It is just as easy to become the fastest down spiraling mmo in history as it is to become the fastest growing mmo in history. Just my three cents, on that.

I don't feel entitled but I feel they should listen and make educated decisions based on the majority of players wants/needs. NOT just simply what they THINK is best because us players know what we want not the other way around.

[Elblai]

I don't feel entitled but I feel they should listen and make educated decisions based on the majority of players wants/needs. NOT just simply what they THINK is best because us players know what we want not the other way around.

 

While I disagree that players have a 'need' when it comes to games, since no one 'needs' to play a game, I agree with the rest of this sentiment. It is indeed very intelligent for BioWare to listen to what people desire.

 

But a company makes a product, and then you buy it. They do not "owe" you a good product, it is simply an intelligent decision to make one - that way more people will buy it. If they do not make a good game, they don't get paid. That's how it works... You didn't pay them BEFORE they offered you the game, so nothing is on them to continue to produce for you.

 

Does this mean that BioWare should ignore their players? No, quite the opposite. But the attitude of some posters denotes that because you paid them $15 they are beholden to you. Like it's some requirement.

It is smart. It is not required. Big difference.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Elblai

[Synica]

I love space sims, right behind mech combat. But you know what? To make the space missions free flight, Bioware's devs would have to completely and totally scrap the current space mission coding and start from scratch.

 

And before you say: "urr hurr hurr u noob u dumb dumb no nothing uruhuruhuruhu" I'm a small time game coder. I know what's involved and as much as I love ripping EA and Bioware apart because Bioware's a group of coding amateurs who've never been able to code a game worth a **** on PC and EA's a group of tactless ******es who ruin games by force rushing them out the door to meet a deadline, asking for the space missions to incorporate full 3 dimensional player controlled flight would change the entire thing. Whether or not you've realized it, events, AI movements and spawning are all scripted and coded to happen based on a player's position and the time into the mission.

 

Whether you've also noticed this or not, with the exception of asteroids and your own ship, everything else has no collision box. In other words, you can clip through them. All that would have to be changed and that would take a LONG *** time. The entire space mission coding would have to be stripped beyond even the point of the bare bones engine and started again.

 

Again, I'm a cynical, snide ******e who criticizes Bioware heavily and always have, but **** you people have no conceptual understanding of the monumental amount of work your demands in this thread encompass.

 

Give them a break. As we say in Australia: "Maybe this donkey will Gee up if we take some of the weight off."

 

IE: They can only do so much. Forget space missions which work as intended and start focusing on problems with the rest of the game that do need attention. We can focus on this later.

 

EDIT: forgot to mention something. If you want a space sim, I'd suggest either EVE online, Freelancer or Freespace. All of them are good games.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Synica

[Macheath]

Leave space combat alone? The way it's currently designed, that's exactly what I do.

 

-Macheath.

[juanni]

Before they spend time improving an existing mini-game I hope they include more mini-games, such as pazaak, swoop/pod racing, etc.

[forsee]

OK, I believe it will take BW a lot of time to develop a free space combat sim.

 

However, BW, please please please do it! Even make a class story around it! It is the wet dream of every person who ever played wingcommander, privateer, freelancer (I'm not mentioning EVE on purpose, since it is more technical and has lower ratings!).

 

We are waiting since 2005 to get a proper space combat sim, and pvp in space would be an awesome expansion. I'm sure you'll get a whole new player group sucked into the game! Take freelancer as a startingpoint :-): By the way, that game was mouse controlled!

 

 

Star wars...thus...we want some war between the stars, not just on the planets with space modelled as an arcade game. OK if it costs so much to develop, make it an expansion pack, I'll happily pay extra for it. Those who do not want it can leave it alone and keep on playing the on rails experience.

[Catch_TwentyTwo]

I don't care about a space sim...

 

But space pvp would be great.

The one thing that SWG got right was Space. Space PvP and the options for space activity were fun.

[Catch_TwentyTwo]

Before they spend time improving an existing mini-game I hope they include more mini-games, such as pazaak, swoop/pod racing, etc.

I'm not sure that a "mini game" was ever the intention. I think Space was going to be a massive extension, but it never got finished, so we ended up with a quick bolt-on mini game.

[pandasteaks]

i think BW should definatly do more with space combat. co-op, maybe pvp, hell even take it off the rails and let us actualy fly to planets, barreling through empire (or republic) capital ships to get to our destination. why stop where its at? it has so much potential.

[Verain]

so should i go ahead and buy a flight stick right now to play space combat?

 

Gods the idea of this game having a fully functional Tie Fighter / X-Wing style game....

 

Yea, pants-a-twitch at that. I still HAVE a flight stick. I would love for you to have to have one to fly some special free-range missions, that would be AWESOME.

 

 

I do like the current click-to-shoot game with no leading, no controlling, and minimal resource allocation too, don't get me wrong, but I'd like to play some real stuff too at some point.

[Catch_TwentyTwo]

Fully functional, freely navigatable space zones would be amazing.

 

I hear SOE have some good space code they are no longer using...

[Hzakalwe]

The space mini-game comes across as an afterthought. In game-play terms, how much design effort was put into it compared to the rest of TOR? In my opinion, it isn't worthy of either the most expensive game ever made or the Star Wars name.

 

It is a missed opportunity - for example, we could have had space flashpoints, a space warzone and an additional talent tree specifically for piloting skills / ship characteristics.

[Anuniaki]

I don’t get people’s desire for BW to bolt on a flight simulator to this MMO. Why create a complete stand alone game inside one of a different genre? If I want a flight sim i’ll go buy one.

 

Suggestions of free form flight and off rails would just increase the difficulty of play. Does anyone really want to use their whole keyboard or have to go buy a flight stick to play space combat? What makes it so great right now is the simplicity of its controls. Right now it’s easy to understand and get engaged in. I don’t want to have to memorize 10 – 15 different keys just to be able to play it.

 

I’m enjoying space combat as a way to gain exp between worlds. I like how it only takes 5 – 10 min of my time and the controls are not overly complicated. Imo the mini game already has enough depth with the ship being customizable and the missions being very challenging. Sure I’ll get bored of them sometime in the future but BW has already stated they’ll be adding more so I don’t see a problem with that.

 

And what if by BW revamping space combat increases lag or fps issues? There are none right now, space combat works seamlessly. For me, PVP at times is completely unplayable, I would hate to see space combat become that way.

 

So BW please do not make it more complicated or difficult to control space combat, I like it the way it is now

 

 

start playing farmville if stuff is too complicated for you , if you like the fisher price version of spacecombat its cool , but let people who do enjoy spacebattles and want some more out of the game have what they want too