Gabe Amantangelo (lead designer) discusses Operative nerf

[CEAF]

 

Skip to 10 minutes in.

 

 

(IMO their "system" sounds like complete BS and does not look at the big picture at all)

[GengisKahn]

Pure crap. They know this change will affect PVE, and they know concealment was not topping PVE damage.

 

They did this because of qq, there is no way they could test the changes in 1.1 prior to releasing the patch notes of 1.1.1. They simply didnt have any time.

 

They are destroying a whole class, and they will pay for that in susbscriptions (not mine, i dont even have a concealment operative).

[Parrk]

"Hey guys, let's leverage our reputation as being responsive to community concerns to trick operatives into thinking our nerfs are targeted rather than a knee-jerk reaction to overwhelming sage tears."

[Crawler]

target ability score and setup modifiers...

 

lets talk crap so none understands what we talk about and then when we fail we will just say that the score was missed or some modifiers were not applied... LoLz

[TebsGenius]

It sounds a bit stupid when they're talking about these numbers and does it require preperation etc. But he doesnt talk about the class in general.

 

Ok maybe that ability does a little bit more damage than other classes can do. But he seems to overlook the fact THAT'S ALL WE GOT. Other classes have gap closers, and more effective PVP skills in general.

 

I wonder if anyone on that team has ever tried playing huttball as an agent? Every other class is pulling targets to them, or jumping up levels ontop of targets, or have AOE knockbacks to knock people down persuing the ball handler. Agents HAD damage, spike damage to eliminate ONE target to try to help keep their ball handler alive. Now that's gone, what's left?

 

I saw someone else mention that it feels like they're trying to balance around 1v1 gameplay. In this aspect agents were very strong, however in a teamfight the agent is really not doing that much, especially after the nerf.

[Necrosov]

That's not my department

[clearsighted]

It is gabe...what do you expect from a Warhammer dev?

[Lagmonster]

That has to be the biggest load of crap I have ever heard.

[Eerazer]

quit crying guys. sheesh. you dont even know how it plays yet. its been tweaked. not nerfed to oblivion.

[Lagmonster]

quit crying guys. sheesh. you dont even know how it plays yet. its been tweaked. not nerfed to oblivion.

 

Your right I have no idea how a 40% nerf on my end tree talent will effect my performance in pve....none at all...just go back to the damn corner please.

 

He even *********** said "oh we'll look back at it if it effects pve to much" Can basically boil that down to, we haven't tested pve effects. It was scoring to high on this "pvp scoreing" and thus was nerfed down.

 

This 100% confirms these devs have no idea what the hell they are doing.

 

Some "scoring" system for balancing, G.G.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Qishari
inappropriate content

[Eerazer]

Your right I have no idea how a 40% nerf on my end tree talent will effect my performance in pve....none at all...just go back to the damn corner please.

 

He even *********** said "oh we'll look back at it if it effects pve to much" Can basically boil that down to, we haven't tested pve effects. It was scoring to high on this "pvp scoreing" and thus was nerfed down.

 

This 100% confirms these devs have no idea what the hell they are doing.

 

Some "scoring" system for balancing, G.G.

 

it's not even 40%. stop pulling false numbers out of your butt.

 

really funny you think that is wasn't in need of a nerf in the first place, when there's videos of NAKED operatives critting up to 7k on other lv 50's and killing them within 3-4 seconds.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Qishari
inappropriate content

[Izumal]

I am willing to give a little in the way of assuming too much coming from an interview where not much can be said precisely enough for folks.

 

What I did find interesting was that the reason for the "adjustment" is because of some formula that produces a mean that the class is compared to, yet the patch notes claim it is allowing faster kills than intended. The patch notes leads me to believe this was play tested, or *gasp* board chatter that lead to changes or was it a formula?

 

Who knows but the inconsistencies breed doubts about integrity and once that starts to creep in, people start to lose faith that you are doing it the right way and choose to spend their dollars elsewhere.

 

Transparency in MMO's is needed and it can be a harsh lesson if done poorly.

[Izumal]

it's not even 40%. stop pulling false numbers out of your butt.

 

really funny you think that is wasn't in need of a nerf in the first place, when there's videos of NAKED operatives critting up to 7k on other lv 50's and killing them within 3-4 seconds.

 

I missed that video can you post the link?

 

Thanks,

[Lagmonster]

it's not even 40%. stop pulling false numbers out of your butt.

 

really funny you think that is wasn't in need of a nerf in the first place, when there's videos of NAKED operatives critting up to 7k on other lv 50's and killing them within 3-4 seconds.

 

show me the video after 1.1 of a naked op critting for 7k.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRtEeMg2YJ4&feature=youtu.be

 

There a pretty geared op critting on a naked jugg. Sure looks like 7k to me alright.....

 

 

"Acid Blade: Now provides 30% armor penetration while active."

 

And please learn some math. 50x.4=20 Leaving the end result being 30%. Or a 40% nerf to the ability.

 

*edit* and personally I don't give a **** about pvp or what they nerf with it. Just don't be effecting Pve with the damn nerfs when its going to destroy my viability for operations. If he had come out and said "Ops are doing to much damage in pve as well" I wouldn't be ************. He didn't say that, he basically said "F-you pve, we'll worry about it later"

 

And he can get away with it cause no in game metrics, which is why this game didn't launch with combat logs. Because they can't handle balancing the classes in any sort of meaningful way right now.

 

Using some screwed up scoring system based on setups and ease of use, rather then how abilities are used together over long periods of time. Ensuring a more balanced end game when it comes to Pve across all dps specs.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Qishari
insults

[Sivlar]

Your right I have no idea how a 40% nerf on my end tree talent will effect my performance in pve....none at all...just go back to the damn corner please.

 

He even *********** said "oh we'll look back at it if it effects pve to much" Can basically boil that down to, we haven't tested pve effects. It was scoring to high on this "pvp scoreing" and thus was nerfed down.

 

This 100% confirms these devs have no idea what the hell they are doing.

 

Some retarded "scoring" system for balancing, G.G.

 

That is the problem, they are not play testing anything and not allowing us too either.

 

They are just ram rodding half baked patches into the live client and dealing with the repercussions after the fact. The whole Ilum base camp ordeal is a prime example, along with all the busted crap in flashpoints and other exploits they had to fix.

 

They are too busy running formulas and looking at metrics on reports rather than play testing actual changes before they go into live.

 

It's starting to smell more and more like Warhammer 2 around here.

[CEAF]

That's just it, the way he talks its like their metrics look at skills on an individual basis instead of looking at how the sum works. Cause it's pretty obvious to the rest of us that nerfing the 1 trick of a 1 trick pony is a very very bad decision.

 

(also assuming a boss has 25-50% armor 20% armor pen nerf is a 5-10% across the board damage nerf, probably closer to the latter. Thats huge esp since op is at best mid tier PvE dps, if nerf goes through it will right at the bottom/0 utility/non viable)

Edited January 26, 2012 by CEAF

[Lagmonster]

self removing this post Edited January 26, 2012 by Lagmonster

[thecoffeecup]

"oh we'll look back at it if it effects pve to much" Can basically boil that down to, we haven't tested pve effects. It was scoring to high on this "pvp scoreing" and thus was nerfed down.

 

Yep, that's exactly what I noticed as well.

 

I was still playing my scoundrel, but honestly after hearing this, I'm having second thoughts about even playing the game. Very demoralizing to know that PvE is just something we'll have to think about later AFTER we nerf it.

 

I won't lie. It's not like I'm doing endgame content at the moment so I am not an expert. But I have played MMOs far a long time, and you'd have to be blind not to see the current situation as a problem.

 

I care about my character being viable for endgame PvE. I don't want to hold my raid back because my class sucks, and I certainly don't want to be denied a raid spot because of it.

 

But as I understand this message along with the nerf, they aren't taking the PvE aspect seriously enough at all.

 

VERY disappointed. Bah.

 

PS: This is by far the most whiny thread I've posted in a game forum ever. I do apologize

Edited January 26, 2012 by thecoffeecup

[GengisKahn]

quit crying guys. sheesh. you dont even know how it plays yet. its been tweaked. not nerfed to oblivion.

 

 

Tweak? You must be trolling, this is not a tweak.

 

A tweak would have been the 20% nerf on HS alone, and even that is in the limit of not being a tweak and being a plain nerf.

[Cowflab]

Here is a lesson in SWTOR ArP. Armor mitigation in games like SWTOR typically has the form: armor/(armor + [level dependant constant]). At lvl 20 with no armor/mitigation buffs the constant seems to be about 4800 in TOR.

 

To illustrate the effect of % armor pen, lets say 10% to keep it simple, consider a heavily armored lvl 20 target, 8000, a medium target, 2000, and a light, 500.

 

Light Target:

•Mitigation: 500/(500+4800) = 9.43%, you do 90.57% dmg

•Mitigation after 10% armor pen: 450/(450+4800) = 8.57%, you do 91.43% dmg

•You've increased your damage against this target by 0.95%

 

Medium Target:

•Mitigation: 2000/(2000+4800) = 29.41%, you do 70.59% dmg

•Mitigation after 10% armor pen: 1800/(1800+4800) = 27.27%, you do 72.73% dmg

•You've increased your damage against this target by 3.03%

 

High Target (8000):

•Mitigation: 8000/(8000+4800) = 62.5%, you do 37.5% dmg

•Mitigation after 10% armor pen: 7200/(7200+4800) = 60.00%, you do 40.00% dmg

•You've increased your damage against this target by 6.67%

 

 

Now apply the actual nerf(with the lvl 50 constant) to the formula so that you can see that it is not some world ender nerf

Edited January 27, 2012 by Trineda
quoted/replied to removed content also removed inflammatory comment

[Motro]

Armor mitigation in games like SWTOR typically has the form: armor/(armor + [level dependant constant]).

 

Lol! You attack someone for "making up" correct numbers and then claim the nerf is justified based on your personal speculation about armor mitigation.

 

I'm not exactly fluent in Herpa Derpa.

 

I don't know about Herpa Derpa, but you are fluent in just plain Derp!

[pipda]

quit crying guys. sheesh. you dont even know how it plays yet. its been tweaked. not nerfed to oblivion.

 

Normally I would echo your statement.

 

I don't think Bioware knows either. Look at Illum, that is something every day TORPlayerJoe could have seen the shortcomings with. I have little faith in them. Also they seem to have not looked at the amount of resolve OP CCs generate compared to other classes. If they had a "system" you think that system would take into account those values.

[pipda]

I just find it ironic that he then spouts off as if he knows what he's talking about. Here is a lesson in SWTOR ArP. Armor mitigation in games like SWTOR typically has the form: armor/(armor + [level dependant constant]). At lvl 20 with no armor/mitigation buffs the constant seems to be about 4800 in TOR.

 

To illustrate the effect of % armor pen, lets say 10% to keep it simple, consider a heavily armored lvl 20 target, 8000, a medium target, 2000, and a light, 500.

 

Light Target:

•Mitigation: 500/(500+4800) = 9.43%, you do 90.57% dmg

•Mitigation after 10% armor pen: 450/(450+4800) = 8.57%, you do 91.43% dmg

•You've increased your damage against this target by 0.95%

 

Medium Target:

•Mitigation: 2000/(2000+4800) = 29.41%, you do 70.59% dmg

•Mitigation after 10% armor pen: 1800/(1800+4800) = 27.27%, you do 72.73% dmg

•You've increased your damage against this target by 3.03%

 

High Target (8000):

•Mitigation: 8000/(8000+4800) = 62.5%, you do 37.5% dmg

•Mitigation after 10% armor pen: 7200/(7200+4800) = 60.00%, you do 40.00% dmg

•You've increased your damage against this target by 6.67%

 

 

Now apply the actual nerf(with the lvl 50 constant) to the formula so that you can see that it is not some world ender nerf like all these morons seem to think. I cant be bothered because I'd rather not speak chinese to american teenagers. I'm not exactly fluent in Herpa Derpa.

 

While I appreciate statistics with numbers to back it up, its just conjecture. With out combat logs we really don't know what is going on with the back end. We can't add and remove talent points and buffs to determine numbers or formulas. We don't have training dummies that we can beat and beat on that we know will give us consistent number sets.

 

However right after you accused someone else of spouting off what they don't know you did qualify that you don't know with "Armor mitigation in games like SWTOR typicallyhas the form"

[Solantharius]

Pure crap. They know this change will affect PVE, and they know concealment was not topping PVE damage.

 

They did this because of qq, there is no way they could test the changes in 1.1 prior to releasing the patch notes of 1.1.1. They simply didnt have any time.

 

They are destroying a whole class, and they will pay for that in susbscriptions (not mine, i dont even have a concealment operative).

 

You talk as though they don't have their own internal testing team as well as numerous groups of dedicated level 50 testers on the PTS as well, both your assumptions on this matter are false btw.

[Lagmonster]

You talk as though they don't have their own internal testing team as well as numerous groups of dedicated level 50 testers on the PTS as well, both your assumptions on this matter are false btw.

 

That same internal testing that has no idea the effects that this will have on pve? That testing system? The one gab himself said they'll figure it out later if it has negative effects?

 

Sounds like a pretty accurate and sophisticated testing system alright