Killadrix Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I like how the previous latest/greatest WoW clone destroyed their PvP by way of a gear treadmill/PvP stat system. They will be lucky if their current efforts to mitigate their mistake win back the new PvP players they drove off. People keep assuming that SWTOR will win with WoW's formula, when we don't even have WoW's formula. Expertise is more powerful than resilience was. There is no arena for small same faction fights. Most importantly, there is no rating for match making. Even if there was, it doesn't matter when the pool of players to match is small because we have no battlegroups and lower server populations. What makes you think we're currently more set up to mirror the success of WoW, and not the failure of Rift? The expertise stat did not destroy anything about this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDutch Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The expertise stat did not destroy anything about this game. It hasn't had enough time to. Just answer the question, I know you must have an opinion on it. Why, in your opinion, will a PvP stat work for wow-clone-SWTOR when it did not work for wow-clone-RIFT? I gave you my theory, so it should be easy enough to pick apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treebyrn Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 For just one second, think like a developer who, in his best interest, needs to keep people playing this game to keep their job and afford their livelihood: 1) This game is not developed to be "fair" 2) This game is no developed to be "skill oriented" This game is designed to keep people playing it, so how do they do it? 1) Ask players to grind multiple sets of gear. About this they know two things: a) people will complain about it, but b) people will do it. 2) Reward players for investing time into the game. Offering small incremental upgrades for investing tens or hundreds of hours makes people think "why bother?". Offering larger, more significant upgrades gives people much more incentive to grind them out - and remain subbed. What most people who don't think beyond their own keyboard miss is this: their are one million plus people playing this game, and among them there are probably thousands of different playstyles - BW (or any other developer) needs to ask themselves: how do appeal to the greatest amount of people to keep them subbed. After playing MMO's for going on 12 years now (and of course this is opinion), I believe an extremely, extremely small number of players would attempt to resort to the "lower PVP time sink by shifting it to a skill based not gear based system" if they were sitting in the developers chair. I some what agree that Developers do this with the intention of keeping players subbing longer but in todays market this can back fire and cause players to leave the game. Maybe my old age is catching up to me but when I play a new release if I get the sense that the game is going to be nothing but a grind patch after patch after patch then I slowly lose any desire to play. When a game bases its pvp on limited warzone gear based grind instead of putting all the effort into a fun, engaging and very dynamic player vs player content... the game is going to struggle to retain players. I guess time will tell but if SWTOR continues down the same pvp path that they are on, I would bet my left n*t (would bet my right n*t as well had I not lost in on last years superbowl bet) that 3 months from now the pvp side of this game will be near dead. Of course this could all change if Bioware really buckles down and does their best to fix the pvp side of the game for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roak Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) For just one second, think like a developer who, in his best interest, needs to keep people playing this game to keep their job and afford their livelihood:[...] ultima online has world pvp, doesn't rely on pvp specific gear or pvp specific stats and has maintained its subscription based business model for 15 years daoc has world pvp, doesn't rely on pvp specific gear or pvp specific stats and has maintained its subscription based business model for 11 years eve has world pvp, doesn't rely on pvp specific gear or pvp specific stats and has maintained its subscription based business model for 9 years versus the post wow themepark attempts: warhammer, instanced and pseudo world based, pvp gear: free to play after ca. 2 years? rift: instanced pvp, pvp gear, pvp stat: free to play in the 1st year tor: ??? I like how the 3 largest, most popular MMO's currently running all use a gear treadmill/PVP stat system and people try to claim that "multiplayer games everywhere" want to be skill based, not gear based. name them please so I can reply accurately. Edited January 25, 2012 by Roak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingfoot Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 warhammer, instanced and pseudo world based, pvp stat? pvp gear: free to play after ca. 2 years? War doesn't have a PvP stat nor is it free to play... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roak Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 War doesn't have a PvP stat nor is it free to play... edited the pvp stat bit out, I wasn't sure. I thought it had an endless trial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingfoot Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 edited the pvp stat bit out, I wasn't sure. I thought it had an endless trial? The trial is from level 1-10 and you stop at level 10. You can keep playing it endlessly at that level but you can't progress further level wise... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treebyrn Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 To put this more succinctly -- a PvP stat was introduced to separate PvP gear from Raid gear; that stat was Resilience because the game had problems with burst damage. This has always confused me... if developers were so worried about pvp burst damage why would they introduce something that protected a % of their player base instead of introducing something that protected all of their player base? I think the best idea would be to code skills so they do x% less damage to players then they do to npc's or hard cap players crits and crit chances against players... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roak Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) The trial is from level 1-10 and you stop at level 10. You can keep playing it endlessly at that level but you can't progress further level wise... ok, thanks, so it has a subscription element still. I think my point was made though. my reply to the other person was because he stated expertise was needed for developers to make money, the examples given show that pvp stats and/or pvp specific gear don't guarantee the business model to remain viable and 3 of the best known pvp mmos have kept their business model viable for 9-15 years with no specific stat or gear. Edited January 25, 2012 by Roak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynan_Ski Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Warhammer online is working on a pvp only client last i heard everyone is equal minus the skill sets..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarthorn Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Warhammer online is working on a pvp only client last i heard everyone is equal minus the skill sets..... Still has a PvE aspect to it as well (city raids after flipping a city is very much PvE for instance). Again I'll stress the point, Expertise scales too well for a single stat and needs to be toned down to a more forgiving level. PvP is supposed to be a jump in and out and have fun thing, not a jump in get 2-3 shotted by some uber geared no lifer and never want to go back in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karyia Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) I don't understand how you can say that expertise scales too well, its an effective hard capped stat. The most damage bonus/reduction/healing(aka trauma ignore) that can be gained from rating alone is 20%. The only way to get above that is with an Overcharge or WZ buff, which can add 15% for a short time. Formulas (from sithwarrior.com) PvP Damage Bonus % = 20 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.2 ) )^( ( Expertise / max(Level,20) ) / 0.72 ) ) PvP Damage Reduction % = 20 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.2 ) )^( ( Expertise / max(Level,20) ) / 0.72 ) ) PvP Trauma Ignore % = 20 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.2 ) )^( ( Expertise / max(Level,20) ) / 0.72 ) ) Trauma ignore overcomes the Trauma (-30% healing received) debuff that players get in PvP, so it effectively improves healing. A Note on the formula used for Ratings, which was worked out by LagunaD You'll notice that the formula's for ratings are all basically the same. Their values are not arbitrary but have specific meaning. Lets look at this example: PvP Damage Bonus % = 20 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.2 ) )^( ( Expertise / max(Level,20) ) / 0.72 ) ) This first underlined section is the % cap for this rating and the second underlined section is the % cap divided by 100. In this case the cap is 20%. Remember this is the cap for the rating, not the stat, so you can't get more than 20% PvP Damage Bonus from stacking Expertise but you may be able to get more from a skill or buff (if any exist). Since these formula's give diminishing returns, you will never actually achieve a 20% PvP Damage Bonus from Expertise. The third underlined section is 1/50th of the amount of rating needed to get 1% of the stat at level 50. So in this case 50 * 0.72 = 36 Expertise Rating to get 1% PvP Damage Bonus at level 50. As stated above, expertise has a hard cap of 20% with diminishing returns on the rating as well, making it impossible to hit that cap from RATING alone. You can however go over it with the Overcharges or WZ buffs, but those are temp buffs. So what does this mean in the long term for PvP? It means that not only to equal levels of expertise cancel each other out, higher level tiers of gear hit diminishing returns on expertise faster and thus do not gain the majority of their power from the expertise rating. They will gain their power from core stats, which is the same way that PvE gear increases relative player power. Right now, a full battlemaster geared player has ~600 expertise rating which yields ~11% Damage Reduction/Healing/Increase after diminishing returns.* *my math may be off, I would appreciate someone double checking this for me. So a Battlemaster geared player will do 11% more damage and take 11% less damage from a player with zero expertise and ALL OTHER STATS ARE EQUAL. Any increase in core stat on the player with no expertise will counteract the bonus from expertise. At what ratio, I do not know, but it does help increase the validitiy of the argument that PvE and PvP gear, at the same tier, have the same relative power. So in a TL;DR version - expertise is hard capped at 20% with diminishing returns and thus does not scale exponentially in a positive direction. Higher tiers of gear provide more relative power from Base Stats than Expertise. Basically the reason your getting smushed is due to base stat disparity and short term buffs, not expertise alone. Edited January 25, 2012 by Karyia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avindra Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I don't understand how you can say that expertise scales too well, its an effective hard capped stat. So a Battlemaster geared player will do 11% more damage and take 11% less damage from a player with zero expertise and ALL OTHER STATS ARE EQUAL. Any increase in core stat on the player with no expertise will counteract the bonus from expertise. At what ratio, I do not know, but it does help increase the validitiy of the argument that PvE and PvP gear, at the same tier, have the same relative power. So in a TL;DR version - expertise is hard capped at 20% with diminishing returns and thus does not scale exponentially in a positive direction. Higher tiers of gear provide more relative power from Base Stats than Expertise. Basically the reason your getting smushed is due to base stat disparity and short term buffs, not expertise alone. Battlemaster is about 12.5% and your right the cap is 20% and you can get 15% from potions. So if the BM and a fresh 50 both used expertise pots the BM would be capped at 20% and the fresh 50 would be at 15% which is only 5% difference. I'd agree and say its mostly from the primary attributes on the PVP gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karyia Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Actually, pots can bring you over the 20% cap. You can't get to 20% via Rating alone, you need a buff to supass it. This is why consumable stacking was nerfed. BM at 11% Expertise, pops a pot and gets the WZ buff (pre 1.1) would have an effective 41% expertise for the duration of the buffs. In 1.1, this caps out at 26% (11% from gear, 15 from pot OR WZ buff). In your example, the BM geared player would still have an 11% expertise advantage for the duration of the buffs. Still, that wasn't the point I was making. The point I was trying to make is that the majority of player power in PvP comes mainly from core stats, and not expertise alone. It was also to show that even if Bioware scales gear up into BIG NUMBERS WOAH zone that the bonus of expertise would never be more than 20%. It also looks like my inference about PvE gear was missed as well. If PvP and PvE gear had the exact same stats, cept that PvP gear had expertise, then PvP gear would be superior in PvP battles but identical in PvE encounters. Of course, that is not the case here as the same tier PvE gear has more Endurance and Core stat for the same item budget. In PvE, it means that PvP gear is inferior as the item budget on expertise is wasted. In PvP, it means that PvE gear could be equal in relative power because of the increased core stat and endurance. If the goal of expertise was to make it so that PvP gear was less desirable to PvE raiders, then this system succeeds. If the goal of expertise was to make it so that you can't go into PvP with PvE gear, or that you need PvP gear to be effective in PvP, then it fails as PvE gear of the same tier provides the same relative power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beratac Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Here's my solution. Get rid of expertise gear and make purple pvp gear as rare random loot drops.. you may wear heavy armor but after killing a mob some where, you loot the corps for a purp pvp light armor pants.. hey its a lottery system.. purple suppose to represent artifact very rare anyways.. well let it be that. You don't have to raid for it you don't have to grind for it, you just may get lucky one day... Is it accessable to everyone to get this? Yep everyone has the opportunity to score enhanced pvp gear.. although you may not be able to use it, but you could sell it for millions.. it just depends on the drop. Then for raids, Turn the loot raid as a guild buff token.. usable every hour and lasts for an hour.. if you die with in that hour.. well you just have to wait to use it again.. that too would also depend on the type of guild buff token it is.. could be a sith one, jedi one, BH who knows again lottery based system. everyone else in game is using the 1-49 gear to pvp in, which from what I've read, has become more enjoyable for the the greater community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avindra Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Here's my solution. Get rid of expertise gear and make purple pvp gear as rare random loot drops.. you may wear heavy armor but after killing a mob some where, you loot the corps for a purp pvp light armor pants.. hey its a lottery system.. purple suppose to represent artifact very rare anyways.. well let it be that. You don't have to raid for it you don't have to grind for it, you just may get lucky one day... Is it accessable to everyone to get this? Yep everyone has the opportunity to score enhanced pvp gear.. although you may not be able to use it, but you could sell it for millions.. it just depends on the drop. Then for raids, Turn the loot raid as a guild buff token.. usable every hour and lasts for an hour.. if you die with in that hour.. well you just have to wait to use it again.. that too would also depend on the type of guild buff token it is.. could be a sith one, jedi one, BH who knows again lottery based system. everyone else in game is using the 1-49 gear to pvp in, which from what I've read, has become more enjoyable for the the greater community. Then when I do PVP and get bags I would like it to not only give me PVP items but I want it to give me Rakata PVE gear..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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