The answer to why expertise is needed

[GengisKahn]

Why would it 'ruin PvE' if the effort to get it would be equal?

 

Because the effort will never be equal, since you can join a PVP alone and you need to form a group to go into an operation.

 

And there is no way to make the effort exactly the same even without the group formation part.

[Kryptorchid]

1) True. edit: but also same things. /edit

 

2.a) So does PvE need balance, or you see guilds bringing only 1-2 classes for the dps, because they are best. Or just 1 healer class.

 

2.b) If fresh 50 hopping in to PvP should be allowed to do that, then why not fresh 50 hopping in to PvE aswell? Why value other above one, and not equal? Players are needed there just as much, GL soloing that raid...

 

3) RPG's need PROGRESSION, be it PvE or PvP. That's core idea of RPG anyway, the progression.

 

Both aspects of the game have players that play that aspect of the game only. Full time PvP'ers don't want full time PvE'rs to jump into PvP without doing the "progression" first, just like PvE'ers don't want PvP'ers be able to skip raid content because of gear.

 

Current expertise on PvP gear sets both on equal settings, that PvP player with PvP gear going for PvE gets same disadvantages as PvE player in PvE gear going for PvP.

 

However, your desing would be badly in favor PvE players over PvP players.

 

First I want to say, thank you for the well thought-out post.

 

2.a) PvE certainly needs Balance too, but it isn't as crucial -- or should I say the balance doesn't need to be tuned to such a razor-thin line. The Balancing threashold for PvE is simply if the encounter falls between "can I complete this encounter utilizing all the class" to "I don't need to stack certain classes to beat it." Thank you for bringing this up, because I can see how it can be read as me not valuing balance in PvE, when I just don't think it is as important that it needs to be in PvP.

 

2.b) This goes back to #1 where PvE and PvP have different nurturing requirements. From a Developer standpoint, you want gear progression in PvE because it forces older content to be used longer, though it is not the only way to keep older tiers relevant. In PvP, the players ARE the content, so you need to get as many people participating as possible.

 

3) RPG's need progression, but PvP doesn't necessarily need "progression in power." A good way to offer progression in PvP is by making a Perk system that unlocks certain abilities/ability-modifications that change the way PvP is played instead of just the raw HP/damage/healing of someone. Example:

 

At Valor level 30, you can unlock a Perk that resets your CC-break ability anytime you die.

 

You can see how this offers progression, but it doesn't make fights play out any differently than they would at the start of a match.

 

Another Perk could be one that reduces the time it takes you to capture a turret/plant a bomb by 1 second.

 

These are ways I see you can offer RPG-style progression in PvP without gear progression being a part of it.

 

Now with regards to your statement:

 

"Full time PvP'ers don't want full time PvE'rs to jump into PvP without doing the "progression" first, just like PvE'ers don't want PvP'ers be able to skip raid content because of gear."

 

The bolded part I don't think is true, given the constant cry for balance in PvP (whether ir be gear or class design related). Removing gear progression (read: increasing stats) creates a culture of balance, because it removes an additional variable that causes imbalance.

 

The latter part of your statement is by-and-large true, which is why I propose the PvE-stat so a PvP can enter the first tier of raiding with their PvP gear, and then gear up to meet the next tier challenges from there on out.

[defileabowl]

Didnt feel like reading 15 pages but people sitting afk in war zones should end this conversation.

[Avindra]

Actually, thats pretty much exactly what you do. I was ready for hard modes the day I hit 50, and it wasn't difficult at all.

 

And, there wouldn't be "hardier" players, if people didn't farm and kill swap their way to BM in Ilum so that they could get easy gear without any work, that is, if there was no Expertise stat.

 

"Hardier" would mean "More skilled" without expertise, rather than "more geared".

 

Even rupiblic kill swapping to get to BM doenst give them BM gear, they still have to get that too.

Even if you suck at PVP you still get Valor ranks and it still rewards you with access to the same gear.

[Zarthorn]

For just one second, think like a developer who, in his best interest, needs to keep people playing this game to keep their job and afford their livelihood:

 

1) This game is not developed to be "fair"

 

2) This game is no developed to be "skill oriented"

 

This game is designed to keep people playing it, so how do they do it?

 

1) Ask players to grind multiple sets of gear. About this they know two things: a) people will complain about it, but b) people will do it.

 

2) Reward players for investing time into the game. Offering small incremental upgrades for investing tens or hundreds of hours makes people think "why bother?". Offering larger, more significant upgrades gives people much more incentive to grind them out - and remain subbed.

 

What most people who don't think beyond their own keyboard miss is this: their are one million plus people playing this game, and among them there are probably thousands of different playstyles - BW (or any other developer) needs to ask themselves: how do appeal to the greatest amount of people to keep them subbed.

 

After playing MMO's for going on 12 years now (and of course this is opinion), I believe an extremely, extremely small number of players would attempt to resort to the "lower PVP time sink by shifting it to a skill based not gear based system" if they were sitting in the developers chair.

 

Considering most of us would rather expertise be changed to be only a "slight advantage" over a "huge advantage" this doesn't remove the grind, merely removes the Gear > Skill aspect we are currently seeing.

 

Back in WAR if I got wooped by an Equal RR or lower RR player, they did it because they were better than me, now in SWTOR....

 

That player could be equal Valor rank but may not be as geared as I am although they are the better player, expertise grants me a crutch that allows me to beat them when they would have normally beaten me.

 

And yes, it's a fact that nobody likes the stupid expertise stat because it's quite frankly just another gate that hurts the balance and progression of the players experience.

 

The only players that like it are those that have every hour that god sends to grind out sets in mere weeks as opposed to months and will likely be the first to complain the minute they get "caught up" since there crutch is no longer covering up there obvious lack of skill.

[GengisKahn]

No hes not. What stops BW from rising stats of pvp gear to equal tier level pve gear after expertise removal?

 

Unless you are in PvP what your nick says, which means it is not obvious to you that if one stat is taken out its compensated by raising others.

 

End effect: same stats total, but PVP sets would have more endurance then PVE for example so sets are not identical.

 

You cant equal the stats, because then PVP gear will dominate PVE because its easier to get.

[Killadrix]

According to multiplayer games everywhere?

 

I like how the 3 largest, most popular MMO's currently running all use a gear treadmill/PVP stat system and people try to claim that "multiplayer games everywhere" want to be skill based, not gear based.

[Avindra]

Considering most of us would rather expertise be changed to be only a "slight advantage" over a "huge advantage" this doesn't remove the grind, merely removes the Gear > Skill aspect we are currently seeing.

 

Back in WAR if I got wooped by an Equal RR or lower RR player, they did it because they were better than me, now in SWTOR....

 

That player could be equal Valor rank but may not be as geared as I am although they are the better player, expertise grants me a crutch that allows me to beat them when they would have normally beaten me.

 

And yes, it's a fact that nobody likes the stupid expertise stat because it's quite frankly just another gate that hurts the balance and progression of the players experience.

 

The only players that like it are those that have every hour that god sends to grind out sets in mere weeks as opposed to months and will likely be the first to complain the minute they get "caught up" since there crutch is no longer covering up there obvious lack of skill.

 

Bad players still get killed easily, its not as much of a crutch as everyone says it is because before they moved 50s to their own bracket I could still kill level 50 players with champ gear on my level 11 it just meant it took a little more button clicking.

They probably had about 8% dmg reduction and extra dmg but I got 15% from the potions.

[GengisKahn]

What if, instead of making a PvP stat, I made a PvE stat to put on gear?

 

In my theoretical game, PvP gear would have identical stats to PvE gear, but the PvE would have this additional stat that only helps in PvE. So gear would look like this:

 

PvP Helm:

+100 Endurance

+100 Aim

+50 Crit

+25 Surge

 

PvE Helm:

+100 Endurance

+100 Aim

+50 Crit

+25 Surge

+100 *new Expertise* increases damage, healing done, healing received, and defense ratings while in an Operation or Flashpoint.

 

The next tier would look like this:

 

PvP T2 Helm: w/new graphic!

+100 Endurance

+100 Aim

+50 Crit

+25 Surge

 

PvE T2 Helm: w/new graphic!

+100 Endurance

+100 Aim

+50 Crit

+25 Surge

+200 *new Expertise*

 

So this itemization system makes PvE gear continually increase in power in PvE ONLY, and is identical to PvP gear when used in PvP. So I have created a system that makes you assumption of "a PvP stat is required to keep Raiders from owning PvPers" as a false accusation. Logically, this means you are wrong.

 

Its exactly the same thing than now except than in PVE instead of PVP, what would be the benefit?

 

It is another solution, the point is that the extra stat is neccesary to aplit PVP gear from PVE gear, in one of those gear an extra stat would be necesary.

[Kryptorchid]

And this would make PvE gear just as good as PvP gear in PvP. Not ok with me or a lot of other PvPers. PvP gear should always be the best in PvP.

 

Hate to sound rude, but if you are against balance in PvP (which a stance like this implies), I don't think the direction of PvP should be catered to you because it just creates a negative experience for people who aren't fully geared. it doesn't promote participation in PvP, and lack of participation is what kills PvP.

[Killadrix]

Considering most of us would rather expertise be changed to be only a "slight advantage" over a "huge advantage" this doesn't remove the grind, merely removes the Gear > Skill aspect we are currently seeing.

 

Back in WAR if I got wooped by an Equal RR or lower RR player, they did it because they were better than me, now in SWTOR....

 

That player could be equal Valor rank but may not be as geared as I am although they are the better player, expertise grants me a crutch that allows me to beat them when they would have normally beaten me.

 

And yes, it's a fact that nobody likes the stupid expertise stat because it's quite frankly just another gate that hurts the balance and progression of the players experience.

 

The only players that like it are those that have every hour that god sends to grind out sets in mere weeks as opposed to months and will likely be the first to complain the minute they get "caught up" since there crutch is no longer covering up there obvious lack of skill.

 

Do you know what the word "fallacy" means?

[Kunari]

What if, instead of making a PvP stat, I made a PvE stat to put on gear?

 

In my theoretical game, PvP gear would have identical stats to PvE gear, but the PvE would have this additional stat that only helps in PvE. So gear would look like this:

 

PvP Helm:

+100 Endurance

+100 Aim

+50 Crit

+25 Surge

 

PvE Helm:

+100 Endurance

+100 Aim

+50 Crit

+25 Surge

+100 *new Expertise* increases damage, healing done, healing received, and defense ratings while in an Operation or Flashpoint.

 

The next tier would look like this:

 

PvP T2 Helm: w/new graphic!

+100 Endurance

+100 Aim

+50 Crit

+25 Surge

 

PvE T2 Helm: w/new graphic!

+100 Endurance

+100 Aim

+50 Crit

+25 Surge

+200 *new Expertise*

 

So this itemization system makes PvE gear continually increase in power in PvE ONLY, and is identical to PvP gear when used in PvP. So I have created a system that makes you assumption of "a PvP stat is required to keep Raiders from owning PvPers" as a false accusation. Logically, this means you are wrong.

 

I like.

[Kryptorchid]

So, in your system, raiders have their cake and eat it too. Raiders would only need to farm their 1 raid set and could do both raiding and PvP at optimal levels, where as PvP'ers would need to farm two sets for the same effect. Sounds fair to me.

 

Your mentality is precisely what I am trying to kill in PvP -- no gear farming for PvP. If you aren't "farming" gear in PvP, that only leaves you with farming PvE gear, so everyone is getting their cake and eating it too.

[GengisKahn]

Actually, his premise of "a PvP stat is needed to keep Raiders from owning PvPers with better gear" is logically false. See my counter-point just one page ago:

 

His premise wasn't "a PvP stat is needed to keep Raiders from owning PvPers with better gear", his premise was "expertise is needed to keep Raiders from owning PvPers with better gear".

 

Whether is a PVP stat or a PVE stat, it is necesary for that.

[Wingfoot]

His premise wasn't "a PvP stat is needed to keep Raiders from owning PvPers with better gear", his premise was "expertise is needed to keep Raiders from owning PvPers with better gear".

 

Whether is a PVP stat or a PVE stat, it is necesary for that.

 

 

You don't get it, a STAT should not keep anyone from owning anyone...It should be SKILL...

[Okamakiri]

Because its alot easier to q for wz then it is to get a group to go raid, and the fact that you have to run a million diffrent raids just to get the gear to get to the last raid would take alot longer thengetting bags for champ gear...

 

Which means the effort is not equal. Getting PVP gear is time consuming but easy, top PVP gear should be an indication of skill, which is what WoW attempted to do with its arena rating system (which I'm not advocating, but it's certainly better than SWTOR's system). SWTOR PVP system is nothing but a grind where an AFKer can become a BM.

 

PVP stats are developer's admitance of failure to balance gear progression in all aspects of the game. If effort and skill required to achive gear in PVP and PVE is similar, people will choose to participate in what they enjoy most, as it should be. People choosing to grind gear in one aspect of the game to use in another is an indication of design flaw, i.e. failure to balance gear progression. Kind of how crafting is currently absolute garbage in comparion to PVP or raiding.

 

Get rid of expertise and tie PVP gear to a level of skill, same as PVE.

[GengisKahn]

No. I am a designer, so I design a system how I want to. I am not going to use an itemization stat budget. My example, still holds true to showing "why" a PvP stat is not needed.

 

Your design is bad, because one of the sets s good for both PVE and PVP and the other only to one.

[Kryptorchid]

His premise wasn't "a PvP stat is needed to keep Raiders from owning PvPers with better gear", his premise was "expertise is needed to keep Raiders from owning PvPers with better gear".

 

Whether is a PVP stat or a PVE stat, it is necesary for that.

 

Again, read what he wrote:

If they just copied the stats from pve to the pvp gear then it would ruin pve so they make the stats a little lower then pve and they add the expertise so people who raid dont face roll you.

 

He is talking about a PvP-specific stat.

[Killadrix]

Which means the effort is not equal. Getting PVP gear is time consuming but easy, top PVP gear should be an indication of skill, which is what WoW attempted to do with its arena rating system (which I'm not advocating, but it's certainly better than SWTOR's system). SWTOR PVP system is nothing but a grind where an AFKer can become a BM.

 

PVP stats are developer's admitance of failure to balance gear progression in all aspects of the game. If effort and skill required to achive gear in PVP and PVE is similar, people will choose to participate in what they enjoy most, as it should be. People choosing to grind gear in one aspect of the game to use in another is an indication of design flaw, i.e. failure to balance gear progression. Kind of how crafting is currently absolute garbage in comparion to PVP or raiding.

 

Get rid of expertise and tie PVP gear to a level of skill, same as PVE.

 

I like how people claim that "PVP stats are developer's admitance of failure to balance gear progression in all aspects of the game."

 

PVP stats are an effective solution to a problem.

 

Just because you don't like the solution doesn't mean it isn't effective.

[Wingfoot]

I like how people claim that "PVP stats are developer's admitance of failure to balance gear progression in all aspects of the game."

 

PVP stats are an effective solution to a problem.

 

Just because you don't like the solution doesn't mean it isn't effective.

 

 

Just because you like the solution, doesn't mean it's the right one...

[Kryptorchid]

Your design is bad, because one of the sets s good for both PVE and PVP and the other only to one.

 

As a strictly PvPer, what's wrong with that? If all I care about is PvP, my needs are being met.

 

1.) No one is going to have better gear than me, ever.

 

2.) I get as many people participating because they aren't being gated by a statistical disadvantage.

 

3.) I get to continually tailor my PvP "look" as new equal-stated gear is introduced.

 

4.) PvP is no longer about gear, but about character build, awareness, and skill.

 

 

 

 

As a strictly PvEer, what's wrong with that?

 

1.) I get to continue to find new gear that makes me better suited for the next tier's raids, while also making previous tiers easier so me and my friends/guild can farm them.

 

2.) It is the same system I have grown to love from previous games.

 

3.) It prolongs the life of older Operations because any new characters who are going to Raid have to start where I did, and I can help them along the way.

 

 

 

 

As a person interested in PvP and PvE, what's wrong with it?

 

1.) I get to remain competitive statistically with all the other PvPers if I take a break and try to clear some Operations.

 

2.) My time invested to progress in PvE is the same as a full-time raider.

 

3.) I am able to use more sets of gear in PvP while not imbalancing it.

 

 

So again, why is that a bad system?

Edited January 25, 2012 by Kryptorchid

[BDutch]

I like how the 3 largest, most popular MMO's currently running all use a gear treadmill/PVP stat system and people try to claim that "multiplayer games everywhere" want to be skill based, not gear based.

 

I like how the previous latest/greatest WoW clone destroyed their PvP by way of a gear treadmill/PvP stat system. They will be lucky if their current efforts to mitigate their mistake win back the new PvP players they drove off.

 

People keep assuming that SWTOR will win with WoW's formula, when we don't even have WoW's formula. Expertise is more powerful than resilience was. There is no arena for small same faction fights. Most importantly, there is no rating for match making. Even if there was, it doesn't matter when the pool of players to match is small because we have no battlegroups and lower server populations.

 

What makes you think we're currently more set up to mirror the success of WoW, and not the failure of Rift?

[Kunari]

... Resilience was originally due to raiders whining that pvpers could get easy gear that they could go into raids with and skip progression... but, if they simply made pvp gear worse than pve gear, then raiders would dominate pvp...

 

That's not totally true. Resilience was put in to limit the burst of crits and reduce the change of a crit hit against you, "resilience reduced the damage taken from critical strikes and spell critical strikes, reduced the chance of suffering a critical strike, and reduced the effect of mana drain spells. " http://www.wowwiki.com/Resilience

 

Some raiders were running around in Tier2 (IIRC) sets dominating PVP because of the crazy damage their crits would cause, especially certain classes. Since raid gear had the best stats no non-raiding PVP'er could match. The TBC expansion brought in the Resilence mechanic with the PVP gear sets.

[Kryptorchid]

That's not totally true. Resilience was put in to limit the burst of crits and reduce the change of a crit hit against you, "resilience reduced the damage taken from critical strikes and spell critical strikes, reduced the chance of suffering a critical strike, and reduced the effect of mana drain spells. " http://www.wowwiki.com/Resilience

 

Some raiders were running around in Tier2 (IIRC) sets dominating PVP because of the crazy damage their crits would cause, especially certain classes. Since raid gear had the best stats no non-raiding PVP'er could match. The TBC expansion brought in the Resilence mechanic with the PVP gear sets.

 

To put this more succinctly -- a PvP stat was introduced to separate PvP gear from Raid gear; that stat was Resilience because the game had problems with burst damage.

[ChaoslegionX]

So, what you're saying is, the only thing that seperates a PvE focused player from a PvP focused player is gear?

 

So...you're admitting that gear is the determining factor in PvP, and that skill is secondary to that?

 

And you're also admitting that PvPers don't want an equal playing field, they'd rather have the advantage of a PvP statistic.

 

Cool. Glad we cleared this up. I'm fine with all of that. Now lets stop pretending that PvP is skill oriented.

 

Has nothing to do with wanting to have the advantage at all and everything to do with i dont like pve. I find no challenge or fun in fighting npcs but i dont want to get face rolled by people who raid because they like raiding and pvp casualy.

 

I would be just as happy if they made the pvp gear the exact same as the pve gear, but then you pve people would complain that its to easy to get the gear doing pvp so whats the point of doing raids...