KSheriff Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 While the morality system is far from perfect, how do you propose it is corrected? If you believe you have a valid solution, how to you propose it is implemented? As you stated OP, morality is all about intention. As such, there is no reason why L/D should not be awarded directly after a decision. The results of the decision are completely irrelevant, as the only thing that really matters is the intent at the time the decision was made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraxture Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 They only real problem I have with the morality scale is that you are punished if you don't go full blown light or dark. Why even bother making choices during questing then? Why dont I just click light or dark when I make my character if the game is obviously designed with me being full blown one or full blown the other. I like the concept of a Grey Jedi. One who serves the Republic, but might make choices that aren't always light side. For The Greater Good kind of thing. Unfortunately I get punished for that at 50. You can make up any light or dark side choices that you made in your trek to level 50. If you have 9000 light and 1000 dark. You just need to do a couple of Esseles/Black talon to get that to a perfect 10000 for example. So you are never stuck with an unbalanced light side/dark side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantragk Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 There are only two options in this game that change your LS/DS status: Lawful good Chaotic Evil There is not Lawful neutral or Chaotic neutral or Chaotic Good or Lawful neutral. Kinda sucks. You're either SUPER good or SUPER evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrilean Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 There was a Jedi mission where you had a choice given to you by the bad guy. He had captured one of your scientists, and was torturing him for all of your military secrets(all of the Republic's superweapons, which could wipe out entire planets and such). He promised to release the doctor back into your custody once he was done with him, unharmed, and in exchange he would give you the location of a Sith that's about to murder a bunch of colonists. The light side choice is to take his deal, and then you go kill a Sith who was about to kill all of four guys. The not light side choice(it doesn't award DS points, just isn't Light side) is to immediately go and save the doctor, and keep him from giving up all of the Republic's military secrets, which could save the lives of billions. Another example: On Ord Mantell, there's a quest to find the long lost son of a couple. They believe him dead, but have heard rumors he's still alive. You find him with the separatists. He had been abducted as a young teen, and coked up on stims and forced to fight for them. He wants you to give him some credits to get off the planet. You're tasked with taking him back to his parents. The light side choice is to give a coked up teenager credits so he can run off and probably start his life of delinquency. The dark side is to force him to go back to his parents(which actually doesn't result in him going back.. he refuses, and in the end, you just didn't help him get off the planet). Either way, I'd think the light side choice would be forcing him to go back to his parents, not giving a drugged up kid money so he can run off and probably buy more drugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain_b Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 A black and white morality system -- where act A is 'good,' but act B is a 'no-no' -- does not equate to the force, and never has. That is why the dark side is tied more to emotional output than to set-in-stone actions. Murder is a bad act, but what if you kill to save, or kill to defend, or even kill for (what you believe to be) a righteous cause? It's easy to sit back and wash our hands of a situation and be like 'oh, well that's evil,' but the force is more concerned with attachment/detachment than it is about doing a body count and then pointing fingers. One man's murder is another man's justice, and the force has much more to do with a person's emotional state during the act than the act itself. I came across quite a few quests/conversations where the "light" path seemed the more evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTijger Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Lol. You thought the system in KotOR was a good expression of the force? I cast ye out of Star Wars fandom. You do know the Force doesnt exist, right? Also, Bioware has full approval for all stories and choices from LucasArts and as such this represents the Force as the inventor intended. If you come up with a new universe then you get to decide, not until then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taurusaud Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Yes I must agree with this. It's kinda stupid because there is no gray area, you're either all black or all white, and if you divert from either you're penalized. Not very well thought out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipHazard Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Isn't this more of a problem with Star Wars as a whole than SWTOR in particular? I certaily remember heated debates on this forum about grey jedi and neutrality as a concept in the Star Wars universe. Personally I've always found Star Wars to be too black and white for my taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackuss Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I still maintain that the biggest problem of the LS/DS system is that it is POINTLESS- it doesnt change anything (NOT ONE THING) about how the storyline ends up going. As far as sidequests go, I also love how, as long as the option doesn't have a LS/DS icon, you can SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT, you can treat the NPCS like ABSOLUTE DIRT, and they'll just shrug it off and still give you your quest/reward/etc. It doesn't affect how the game is 5 months after you've level capped, no. But choosing light side/dark side options definitely affects how you have to play the game. What's kind of lame is that they basically punish you for going light sided all the time - as choosing those options makes you have to get TONS more stuff to finish a quest, or fight tons more people. Choosing dark side always ends a possible portion of the quest chain shortly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vyradder Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Good thing all it really effects is the colour of your saber eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDProletariat Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Actually Star Wars has been one of the most black and white morality advocators. Star Trek understands the grey, while Star Wars has always been good v. bad. What movies were you watching? The Jedi order has not allowed their followers to follow ANY emotions, in the danger that any of them will lead them to do bad actions. It's one of the most stark black and white things out there. They think all emotions can and will lead you to evil, so you need to disallow them and ignore them. Edited January 25, 2012 by ZDProletariat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantragk Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Isn't this more of a problem with Star Wars as a whole than SWTOR in particular? I certaily remember heated debates on this forum about grey jedi and neutrality as a concept in the Star Wars universe. Personally I've always found Star Wars to be too black and white for my taste. IIRC Luke was actually a "grey" Jedi. After the movies he actually went to the dark side and then came back and became a neutral Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Verja_ Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 IIRC Luke was actually a "grey" Jedi. After the movies he actually went to the dark side and then came back and became a neutral Jedi. Every Skywalker goes evil then comes back from being evil. Normally in the Grey area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amonette Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 A black and white morality system -- where act A is 'good,' but act B is a 'no-no' -- does not equate to the force, and never has. That is why the dark side is tied more to emotional output than to set-in-stone actions. Murder is a bad act, but what if you kill to save, or kill to defend, or even kill for (what you believe to be) a righteous cause? It's easy to sit back and wash our hands of a situation and be like 'oh, well that's evil,' but the force is more concerned with attachment/detachment than it is about doing a body count and then pointing fingers. One man's murder is another man's justice, and the force has much more to do with a person's emotional state during the act than the act itself. What if Anakin had been told that there was a massive bomb at the center of Coruscant that would explode if he didn't murder the younglings? Yes this is a silly situation, but it demonstrates a point -- Anakin's mental state during the killings was far more important than the killings themselves in determining whether the act was light/dark. This is why the Jedi wear kid gloves while dealing with the force -- why seemingly 'everything' leads to the darkside. Because one questionable act, while it might not be truly dark, could conceivably lead to others that are. Anakin being sad about leaving his mom in Ep. I probably wasn't all that strongly darksided -- but when it led to an obsession by the time of his teenage years that ultimately culminated in the slaughter of the sand people, then we can begin to appreciate the initial hesitancy of the council regarding his entry into the Order. The problem with the morality system in TOR is that it makes no account for the long term ramifications -- good or bad -- of a decision. Every single choice results in an immediate morality swing, often with ridiculous implications with regards to what Bioware apparently believes is light or dark. As a Sith Warrior, what if I saved Overseer Tremmel because I was thinking about how he would help me slaughter Baras? Is that a lightsided move? Is 'saving a life' good if I am plotting to utilize the person in a future coldblooded murder? Therein lies the flaw of this system -- instantaneous, absolute and utterly farcical 'judgement' is rendered without any consideration being given for ulterior motives. *Edit* I wanted to also add, there is a huge issue with 'goodness by proxy' that pops up time and again. Just because an act is of 'lesser evil' than another, does not make it good. There's a quest on Dromund Kaas that is a perfect example -- where my character is given the option to either brutally kill a bunch of rebellious slaves slowly, or kill them quickly. Now, maybe a quick exit is a better way to go, but that doesn't make such an action lightsided, for Christ's sake. You do realise that this is a game and not real life right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantragk Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Every Skywalker goes evil then comes back from being evil. Normally in the Grey area. I don't think Luke went super Evil though, not to the extent that Anakin did... that ****er was full on 10000 DS... And he went there fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Verja_ Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I don't think Luke went super Evil though, not to the extent that Anakin did... that ****er was full on 10000 DS... And he went there fast. And then he killed the emperor. Which was his whole purpose as the "Chosen One" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realID Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) I spare you Instant 100 LS. or.... I spare you. New Dialogue Box pops up.. Are you currently angry, sad, or fearful? Yes/No Are you getting even with someone by leaving this person alive? Yes/No Are you considering calling in a favor later and reminding the person you spared them? Yes/No Are you planning to kill this person later? Yes/No Is your mind clear of all emotion when you make this decision? Yes/No Are you tired of these questions? Yes/No Congratulations! You've earned 3.839183495901 LS points It may not be representative of the Force, but I'll take the immediate judgement anyday. Edited January 25, 2012 by realID Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalexkhan Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I don't think Luke went super Evil though, not to the extent that Anakin did... that ****er was full on 10000 DS... And he went there fast. I'm pretty sure spawn camping younglings was an exploit.... He never got punished though and should have had all his points reset IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipHazard Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 IIRC Luke was actually a "grey" Jedi. After the movies he actually went to the dark side and then came back and became a neutral Jedi. I would be inclined to agree, however there are certainly other forum goers who would rip you a new one verbally for making that comment:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantragk Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 And then he killed the emperor. Which was his whole purpose as the "Chosen One" True, too bad he wiped out all the Jedi before that lol... I guess true balance is there not being any sith or Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belcorwyn Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Dude, this game is made of programming, not the Force. Get real and suspend your disbelief. To have an expectation that a video game somehow intuit your state of mind while making a decision is ridiculous. The system is black vs white because programming is 0 vs 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannomite Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 It's game and the system has to apply to non force classes too. Live with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kindara Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Killing a person doesn't always equal darks ide points in this game. If you think it does then you've not played enough or deep enough. I've had choices between handing someone over to be tortured to death or killing him. Killing him got me 100 light side points because it was the better option since I couldn't just let him go he was already pretty injured and would of been killed or caught by someone else. Its not a black and white system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gealbhan Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This is gonna bug some people but I'm gonna mention, dun dun dunnnn Star Trek. The Deepspace 9 Episode: In the pale moonlight. Perfect example of light/dark, right/wrong. Really is a must see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foolishpig Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Also, as far as the game "punishing" you for not being completely light or dark side...really? Because of certain gear options? There's no other gear options available...? Or because it's possible that you're trying to min/max an arbitrary value? That same argument could be used to for valor and social points, but I see it more as a childish "i want it" kind of thing: "it sucks because it doesn't conform to how I do things." Again, the story is meant to be played however you want to. If you want to be in the "grey" area, you can always balance yourself out. Want to be true neutral? Refuse every quest. Want to be "chaotic good"? Punch the living crap out of an aristocrat in Alderaan. (I found that to be very, very funny) Just because there's no arbitrary scale to your actions or a reward doesn't mean you can't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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