(Challenge)SHOW ME PROOF!

[Tristita]

Thank you for confirming my opinion of you. Enjoy the rest of your day at school.

 

Thank you for your opinion, it seems bioware shares mine though. You can make all the excuses you want, you weren't killing everyone in PvP because you're an ultra skilled gamer robot ninja. You were killing everyone because Operative are overpowered (soon to be WERE overpowered.) I commend bioware for not caving in to OP whines and leaving their class broken.

[Alexdaphnis]

Thank you for your opinion, it seems bioware shares mine though. You can make all the excuses you want, you weren't killing everyone in PvP because you're an ultra skilled gamer robot ninja. You were killing everyone because Operative are overpowered (soon to be WERE overpowered.) I commend bioware for not caving in to OP whines and leaving their class broken.

 

You are missing the point of this thread...operative/scondrel were `op` before 1.1 becuse of

adrenal/stims/relic 50lvl against low lvls etc... understand its not the same after 1.1, i repeat again why sooo many videos and screenshots before 1.1 and why none now??? i say this regarding your combat logs claims

Edited January 26, 2012 by Alexdaphnis

[Lykurgus]

You are missing the point of this thread...operative/scondrel were `op` before 1.1 becuse of

adrenal/stims/relic 50lvl against low lvls etc... understand its not the same after 1.1, i repeat again why sooo many videos and screenshots before 1.1 and why none now??? i say this regarding your combat logs claims

 

Dude, you are wasting your time. Some people simply cannot be reasoned with. Just ignore him and he'll get bored and go troll some other thread. If he dosent get it after 30 pages, he never will.

[BoDiE]

OP is still EZ mode. I play one and it's the most fun ever. If they nerf my sage, know what? I won't post 33 pages of moans and whines. I will adapt and prevail. Quote me if you must, but I guarantee I won't be on here crying.

[Alexdaphnis]

OP is still EZ mode. I play one and it's the most fun ever. If they nerf my sage, know what? I won't post 33 pages of moans and whines. I will adapt and prevail. Quote me if you must, but I guarantee I won't be on here crying.

 

Ez mode compared to what??? mercs/commando 1button spam(trace missile,grave round) sorcs with bubble, punt , heal, force speed etc...

[xJeTsTaRx]

ehH if i used anything like fraps i would have some decent footage for you. Got steam rolled by this operative over and over in this warzone. I have 4 pieces of champ gear + relic and both implants. This was on my assassin so im not as surprised, but im rolling a hybrid darkness build so im not as squishy as your average deception. Even today i got rolled by a smug before i could even get off the floor, prob had some help from 1 teamate but still without the teamate he would have simply taken an extra move to kill me right after i got up.

 

The nerf is not as bad as you make it, Operatives are OP and why the hell would you expect them to roll around not using adrenals. The problem with them is that you are stun locked, and its not a 20% decrease in damage over all its a 20% decrease damage to one ability, not to mention you now get armor penetration to offside the 20% damage decrease. The main nerf is the 3 second knock down, my knockdown on my assassin is 1.5 seconds and it would obviously be OP if it were 3 seconds.

Edited January 26, 2012 by xJeTsTaRx

[KorwinOfAmber]

Ez mode compared to what??? mercs/commando 1button spam(trace missile,grave round) sorcs with bubble, punt , heal, force speed etc...

 

EZ mode compared to actually "fighting" other players. You know... using your abilities at right time, interrupts, staying on target or using LoS, going in the crowd of people in huge risk to CC one, Guard another and kill third since thats the only way you can steal a win.

 

As opposed to - sneak in stealth, kill the target, vanish.

[Lykurgus]

ehH if i used anything like fraps i would have some decent footage for you. Got steam rolled by this operative over and over in this warzone. I have 4 pieces of champ gear + relic and both implants. This was on my assassin so im not as surprised, but im rolling a hybrid darkness build so im not as squishy as your average deception. Even today i got rolled by a smug before i could even get off the floor, prob had some help from 1 teamate but still without the teamate he would have simply taken an extra move to kill me right after i got up.

 

The nerf is not as bad as you make it, Operatives are OP and why the hell would you expect them to roll around not using adrenals. The problem with them is that you are stun locked, and its not a 20% decrease in damage over all its a 20% decrease damage to one ability, not to mention you now get armor penetration to offside the 20% damage decrease. The main nerf is the 3 second knock down, my knockdown on my assassin is 1.5 seconds and it would obviously be OP if it were 3 seconds.

 

 

Thats kinda the point here mate, we dont want people telling us what happened. We want proof. I havent been stomped by an scound post 1.1. Unless i see a vid of it happening i wont beleive its possible. Pre 1.1 i hated the little sh*ts.

 

As to the nerf, they are reomving some arp. Not adding it. So they lose 20% damage off an attack that is highly postional to begin with. The stun is reduced from 3 to 1.5 seconds 9this i completly agree with by, 3 seconds was too long) and they are reducing arp from 50% for 15 seconds to 40% for 15 seconds.

[Alexdaphnis]

Thats kinda the point here mate, we dont want people telling us what happened. We want proof. I havent been stomped by an scound post 1.1. Unless i see a vid of it happening i wont beleive its possible. Pre 1.1 i hated the little sh*ts.

 

As to the nerf, they are reomving some arp. Not adding it. So they lose 20% damage off an attack that is highly postional to begin with. The stun is reduced from 3 to 1.5 seconds 9this i completly agree with by, 3 seconds was too long) and they are reducing arp from 50% for 15 seconds to 40% for 15 seconds.

 

Actualy its 30% arp:)

[Northwynde]

Thats kinda the point here mate, we dont want people telling us what happened. We want proof. I havent been stomped by an scound post 1.1. Unless i see a vid of it happening i wont beleive its possible. Pre 1.1 i hated the little sh*ts.

 

As to the nerf, they are reomving some arp. Not adding it. So they lose 20% damage off an attack that is highly postional to begin with. The stun is reduced from 3 to 1.5 seconds 9this i completly agree with by, 3 seconds was too long) and they are reducing arp from 50% for 15 seconds to 40% for 15 seconds.

 

The community, in general, does not have to prove anything. Bioware thinks Operatives/Smugglers are out of line compared to their design goals. If players believe this to be false then the onus of proof lies with them. BW has access to huge amounts of data unavailable to the playerbase, and they are making adjustments based on the data.

 

Its possible they are misinterpreting the data. In order to prove to BW that they are, indeed, making a mistake with this rebalancing then some really motivated player with the help of many other players will have to do comprehensive testing of Operatives/Smugglers in various situations to prove they are fine as is. This would entail hours and hours of testing vs different classes/ac's. Enough testing to remove statistical variance and in varying conditions...equal gear, less gear, more gear, buffs, adrenals, no buffs, etc. Compile this, analyze it and if you can clearly prove your case BW would have no grounds to stand on.

 

Telling the community to prove that Ops/smugs are still overpowered by posting a video is not going to accomplish anything. Their own internal testing may show the proposed nerfs are going to far, but this thread is just total nonsense.

[RwNemo]

Yep that's exactly what I'm saying. Unless you were woefully undergeared or underleveled in world pvp.

 

 

In that case you have no idea what you're talking about.

Its safe to say that you probably should spend more time in the actual Wz's than you do complaining about them on the forums.

 

Now im going to follow your example by saying this :

 

You have NEVER killed anyone in a WZ.

You have NEVER scored in huttball.

You dont have above 200 expertise.

You have never died vs more than 1 enemy at the same time.

You ALWAYS get soloed in open PvP.

And right now your sitting alone in your room thinking "LOOOL im the best troll ever!! Internet ninja ftw! _/"

 

 

You suck at making points, but worse than that, you are trying to troll but even that seems impossible for you, Gandalf.

 

From this day forward you shall be known as Slagathor, brother of Sloth and second mascot of the old Goonie's gang.

[Lykurgus]

The community, in general, does not have to prove anything. Bioware thinks Operatives/Smugglers are out of line compared to their design goals. If players believe this to be false then the onus of proof lies with them. BW has access to huge amounts of data unavailable to the playerbase, and they are making adjustments based on the data.

 

Its possible they are misinterpreting the data. In order to prove to BW that they are, indeed, making a mistake with this rebalancing then some really motivated player with the help of many other players will have to do comprehensive testing of Operatives/Smugglers in various situations to prove they are fine as is. This would entail hours and hours of testing vs different classes/ac's. Enough testing to remove statistical variance and in varying conditions...equal gear, less gear, more gear, buffs, adrenals, no buffs, etc. Compile this, analyze it and if you can clearly prove your case BW would have no grounds to stand on.

 

Telling the community to prove that Ops/smugs are still overpowered by posting a video is not going to accomplish anything. Their own internal testing may show the proposed nerfs are going to far, but this thread is just total nonsense.

 

To a certain degree I agree with you. However I think this may simple be a case of arguing semantics here!

 

I don’t expect Bioware to prove/disprove anything to me. They can make all the changes they want, it’s their freaking game after all!

 

However, I do think it’s perfectly acceptable to call out players on these boards on the wild over exaggerations they make about Ops post 1.1

In the case of player you cannot deny that burden of proof lies with the people making these claims which are (in my opinion, so subjective!) completely over the top and frankly blatant lies most of the time.

 

So in that sense, I disagree, certain elements of the community does have something to prove!

Unless of course you think that just throwing round baseless opinion as “fact” is ok. In which case I cant really argue with you

 

PS. Very well written post. Nice to meet someone on here you can post a conrsuctive argument instead of spouting childish drivel. My hat off to you sir.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Lykurgus

[Amatatseru]

Boy that didnt take long! Suprisingly this operative does not kill his target in the 3 second stun, not does he reduce his targets hp to sub 30%. Just to give more infor for the video, the other guy has 450 exp, the operative has 400. THIS IS WAS FILMED ON LIVE SERVERS! THIS IS NOT THE PTR!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1su-tMdKJE

 

Can't wait to have that number reduced by 20%. People are pulling these 8K crits out of their asses. Just not possible without buff stacking

Keep em coming!

 

Seeing that operative click using his skills i doubt he is a top pvper

[AdmiralOnasi]

Lets keep in mind what people are claiming.

 

1. They are dying IN A 3 SECOND STUN

 

2. They are dying BEFORE THEY HAVE A CHANCE TO REACT

 

3. Heavy armor classes with 500+ exp are getting dropped to sub 30% in an opener.

 

Here's what actually happens:

 

1. You are badly wounded and I come over and finish you off.

 

2. See number 1.

 

3. This is a complete lie fabricated by people who hate the class because we ruin their day, right up there with "13k criticals!!!!!" My scoundrel has 540 expertise, you know what happens when I try to attack a Juggernaut, Powertech, or (to a slightly lesser extent) a Mercenary? The guy shrugs off a lot of the damage (a big crit against a tank is barely 2k) and then proceeds to rip my face off. Same thing applies whenever I try to attack someone who's guarded or bubbled. Targets that I go after and can burst down quickly are: unshielded sorcs, people with low health, people fighting, snipers, and operatives.

 

And since a lot of people are ignorant of how "super criticals" happen, let me explain. The biggest critical I've gotten since the bracketing was 5600, and it was against an unshielded sorcerer that was sitting in the back healing. In order to crit that high, I activated my Champion level relic (big boost to critical rating and surge), I used a warzone expertise consumable, and I used Flechette Round. Let me ask you this: If I manage to navigate my way through a battlefield to an unprotected and unshielded healer in the back and use two abilities that are on long CD, do I not deserve to win that battle?

[KSimeoni]

excuse me if i am being retarted, but ARE YOU asking of someone accused of something to provide proof that he is guilty????? and then when he doesnt provide the proof that he is guilty you absolve him by saying he is innocent???

 

boy i really have to cut down on the vodka...

[Kresharth]

Here's what actually happens:

 

...Let me ask you this: If I manage to navigate my way through a battlefield to an unprotected and unshielded healer in the back and use two abilities that are on long CD, do I not deserve to win that battle?

 

 

Here is the basic issue - you (the operative) say "Yes".

 

The other players (your targets) say "No, no-one deserves a 1v1 kill unless they outplayed them in a fair fight".

 

If I went over to a republic area and caught a lvl 30 fighting a mob I'd have a guaranteed kill - but the community calls that "ganking", and its not seen as fair.

 

YOUR skill requirement was in getting to them undetected, but the target feels they didn't have a fair chance to fight back - THEIR skill doesn't matter, so they feel you ganked them.

 

You probably don't kill any MORE people than they do, but in your own words each of those deaths is very, very likely - and the target feels ganked

 

Human nature should tell you that it won't fly for long...

[The_Mystic]

I believe this thread is abouy proof.

 

Nerfs and patches are not proof. This is a new game and when a huge or seemingly so part of the playerbase complains and whines like children then Bioware will be forced into a position where they have to nerf the class.

 

Nerfing iss not proof. Nerfing is politics. Nerfing is Business.

 

Many, many games have been destroyed due to the players thinking they know best. Look at it over the past few weeks. Nerf this done. Nerf that done. Move onto the next.

 

Compare the threads demanding nerfs to the threads with positive ideas for improving the games and it's features and classes and you may start to see the path we are heading down.

 

Nerfs are a bad sign. Nerf thread are about the worst thing you can see on a games forum.

[The_Mystic]

Here is the basic issue - you (the operative) say "Yes".

 

The other players (your targets) say "No, no-one deserves a 1v1 kill unless they outplayed them in a fair fight".

 

If I went over to a republic area and caught a lvl 30 fighting a mob I'd have a guaranteed kill - but the community calls that "ganking", and its not seen as fair.

 

YOUR skill requirement was in getting to them undetected, but the target feels they didn't have a fair chance to fight back - THEIR skill doesn't matter, so they feel you ganked them.

 

You probably don't kill any MORE people than they do, but in your own words each of those deaths is very, very likely - and the target feels ganked

 

Human nature should tell you that it won't fly for long...

 

The big problem here is that we are talking about a stealth class and what you described is EXACTLY how they should be fighting. If we are having stealth classes in this game. We do, and I think we should then they need to be able to do this. Now I accept that not all players want to fight this kind of enemy. That is why we have PVE servers.

 

Human nature may dictate that players hate stealth classes when they stab them in the back but that does not justify a nerf. Stealth classes are often hated. In fact many that use those tactics enjoy the power they feel over their targets.

 

Have you considered tactical options? Even as simple as fighting in pairs?

 

There are many valid combat tactics that can be used.

 

Getting killed. Having a cry then coming to the forums demanding a nerf is not the way to go.

[Ahhmyface]

I'm not a heavy armor wearer, but I can get a video demonstrating where I am below 30% after the stun wears off. If I can find a willing 500+ expertise operative. 550 expertise myself.

 

I think it's obvious that every claim on these boards is exaggerated. No post-1.1 op is going to stun-kill a tank. Maybe a dps. But that's not fair either. I am still in favor of the nerf, mostly because that's still ridiculous.

[The_Mystic]

The community, in general, does not have to prove anything. Bioware thinks Operatives/Smugglers are out of line compared to their design goals. If players believe this to be false then the onus of proof lies with them. BW has access to huge amounts of data unavailable to the playerbase, and they are making adjustments based on the data.

 

As I say thats politics not proof.

[Northwynde]

To a certain degree I agree with you. However I think this may simple be a case of arguing semantics here!

 

I don’t expect Bioware to prove/disprove anything to me. They can make all the changes they want, it’s their freaking game after all!

 

However, I do think it’s perfectly acceptable to call out players on these boards on the wild over exaggerations they make about Ops post 1.1

In the case of player you cannot deny that burden of proof lies with the people making these claims which are (in my opinion, so subjective!) completely over the top and frankly blatant lies most of the time.

 

So in that sense, I disagree, certain elements of the community does have something to prove!

Unless of course you think that just throwing round baseless opinion as “fact” is ok. In which case I cant really argue with you

 

PS. Very well written post. Nice to meet someone on here you can post a conrsuctive argument instead of spouting childish drivel. My hat off to you sir.

 

 

Yes, it is BW's game and they can do whatever they want with it, but they are striving for class balance, and they are human, they make mistakes. Things get coded incorrectly from time to time. They put the decimal point in the wrong place in a damage calculation. Lots and lots of reasons why things are out of whack.

 

Its good for the community to speak up on perceived issues but in reality most devs will not go through the trouble of checking mulitudes of code on what somebody says on the forums(more like never). Having a theory as to what is causing the problem and tons of data to show them why you are correct usually will get some attention. Many in game issues have been fixed more quickly than otherwise because some dedicated player put alot of time and effort into showing them where they were making a mistake.

[RwNemo]

excuse me if i am being retarted, but ARE YOU asking of someone accused of something to provide proof that he is guilty????? and then when he doesnt provide the proof that he is guilty you absolve him by saying he is innocent???

 

boy i really have to cut down on the vodka...

 

 

 

In russia....vodka cuts you down!

[lJustAlexl]

Instead of a guaranteed kill where skill doesn't come into play, why not reduce the opening burst damage while improving the sustained dps of head-on combat. Slightly, at the very least. Enough so that the target has more than 3 seconds (usually less currently) to turn the tables.

 

Stealth still get the advantage and utility provided by their use of stealth and the targets aren't completely helpless when they encounter one. At the very least, it would certainly reduce the amount of complaints. Additionally, the common counters to complainers like, "You had an opportunity to defend yourself and still failed" would have more merit.

[Kresharth]

The big problem here is that we are talking about a stealth class and what you described is EXACTLY how they should be fighting. If we are having stealth classes in this game. We do, and I think we should then they need to be able to do this. Now I accept that not all players want to fight this kind of enemy. That is why we have PVE servers.

 

Human nature may dictate that players hate stealth classes when they stab them in the back but that does not justify a nerf. Stealth classes are often hated. In fact many that use those tactics enjoy the power they feel over their targets.

 

Have you considered tactical options? Even as simple as fighting in pairs?

 

There are many valid combat tactics that can be used.

 

Getting killed. Having a cry then coming to the forums demanding a nerf is not the way to go.

 

I like your reply. Refreshingly uninsulting

 

1. Yes, this is how a stealth class operates. I believe that if the stealth class either stunned OR did a big opener, the feeling of unfairness would reduce and the nerf cries would lessen. Imo its bad design/balance on Bioware's part.

 

2. Tactics - I agree these are the main reason people win/lose in pvp. When my powertech buddy drags you to us, you are probably dead. When I get dragged to acid, I am dead <shrug>.

 

3. "Enjoying the feeling of power" indicates the problem - its a feeling of power that the victim doesn't like, so they retaliate the only way they can: by demanding nerfs. Human nature.

 

A fair few years in management has taught me that if its facts vs perception - perception wins every time. I think you are wasting your time trying to persuade people that the way operatives kill is justified or numerically balanced - it FEELS unfair, like the operative has all the power, and one tactic people use is to cry nerf until Bioware steps in and takes the feeling of unfairness away.

[Northwynde]

As I say thats politics not proof.

 

Posting a video won't prove anything to Bioware.

 

IF they are making this adjustment based on a political agenda to appease the masses, then its a done deal nothing you can do to stop it and quite frankly we should all probably move on to another game if that is how they plan to operate.

 

IF they have been looking at performance data across classes and have identified an outlier in performance and are now making adjustments, then that sounds reasonable. Testing those adjustments before patching them into game to make sure they fall into the performance norm should be part of the process.

 

Based on the proposed changes I am guessing that OPs/Smugs were well above what they considered average, ran some calculations based on average performance of OP/Smugs and started adjust abilities until, on paper, damage was where they want it.

 

So if you want to adhere to the "politics" point of view, thats your perogative. I will wait to see how it all hashes out before I jump to that conclussion.