Annihilation vs Carnage, Pro's and Con's

[Quor]

Hey guys interesting posts right now, honestly for beta i went carnage up to level 30. I was wondering, my guild i am in most of the marauders are going Carnage, would it be worthwhile from a end game perspective for me to go annihilation? is this spec viable end game from what has been seen so far? or would carnage be the way to go for end game events. Thanks all look forward to seeing you in game ^^

 

The Juyo-form Fury Berserk ability that makes all the bleeds crit and restore life seems like it would be very useful in end-game content. Given that the cooldown isn't nearly as prohibitive as the Frenzy buff, an Anni spec Marauder could keep it up every time they have 30 stacks of Fury. That's a pretty consistent bit of extra healing that also buffs Anni DPS by a decent chunk at the same time.

 

I would imagine putting an Anni spec Mara in a DPS group would more or less remove the need for any kind of healing on the members of that group outside of the odd instant cast heal or HoT.

[Quor]

Also, one more thing to note with Annihilation....it has a talent that reduces the cooldown of our interrupt by two seconds, making it a six second cooldown that has a four second interrupt.

 

That's a 3:4 ratio of interrupt:cooldown, the longest in game. That means you could potentially lock a healer completely out of using their longest heal (which tend to be more efficient in terms of throughput compared to shorter heals). This means you could wear down healers that much faster, given that Marauders have a native healing debuff skill. Talented Disruption + Deadly Throw would cause a healer to bottom out their resources pretty quickly.

[Gravmore]

Bravo on the post by J-Slh, nice to see a post that is an even tempered conversation starter. I think i like the carnage spec most because of the mobility(as you pointed out) and the ease of play while lvling. I plan to enjoy the social aspect of playing with friends to the highest degree possible.

 

I found the dps to be adequate, even good, if you keep up on your gear and know your enemy. This was especially so beginning at level 25+, based on my slow learning curve over only 3-4 days of playing. I will play the this tree until my friends and i decide what level of endgame participation we will pursue. By then im sure there will be many strat guides to best possible dps and builds that are effective for PVP, endgame, or casual gaming.

 

Thanks again for the post, not a big forum guy but when i find one worthy of a reply i like to make note of the content as well as the author.

[Tyzall]

From the looks, Carn has a pretty significant buff for party in 'Bloodthirst'. I feel that has to be taken account for in PvE situations. Pretty huge. Edited December 15, 2011 by Tyzall

[Nmaharg]

From the looks, Carn has a pretty significant buff for party in 'Bloodthirst'. I feel that has to be taken account for in PvE situations. Pretty huge.

 

Im pretty sure all specs get bloodthirst.

[Ghingis]

I for one am going with Anni, DOTs always did and always will rule in PVP.

Even if they can be dispelled, how many Dispellers are actually going to be doing just that? from my experience not many. And the beuty about DOTs is you can be dead and still be doing damage.

 

Yea, just take warlock DoTs for example, who dispelled those before UA came into account?

 

Noone, right?

 

Oh wait..

[Ghingis]

Also, the dot durations are very short compared to a lot of other games so with a 1.5 second global cooldown gl to any healer attempting to dispel anni dots and heal at the same time. Infact, please DO stop healing and dispel...

 

This is what people does not seem to realize tho..

 

If there is a dispeller against you as Annhiliation, you will be doing ****all damage, compared to a Carnage specced marrauder against this same dispeller.

 

Sure you can still do damage, but you still lose the core of the talent tree by getting dispelled.

[Meiu]

Nice analysis, although I think Carnage is as good for PvE than Annihilation. Think about all those boss fights on other MMO's when there are some time when you can't hit the boss, i.e. he becomes invulnerable. I prefer then having an epic burst to use on him than DoTs =) Same thing for bosses which are more vulnerable for 15 seconds like the big lava worm in WoW Cataclysm.

 

Of course, for traditional fights, annihilation is surely as good, maybe even better, but hey, depends on the situation =)

 

Then you got those bosses where you have to periodically run away from them out of line of sight so that your DOTs can keep ticking on them and sometimes you don't even miss a chance to reapply them when you run back.

[J-Slh]

Evidence for this?

 

The only hard numbers I've seen point to Carnage significantly out-DPSing Annihilation, although there were a few flaws with the analysis that would narrow the gap.

 

I apologize for any flaws, however as I said, this is completely my point of view on what I have seen ingame and what I have talked about with fellow Marauders that got to 50 and played a little bit at the end. Sadly, I have no evidence aside from people claiming that stuff seemed to get killed a little bit faster, or that the damage seemed a little bit more than Carnage. That, after some thinking had led me to believe that Annihilation does indeed outDPS Carnage in the long run, and/or a long fight. If you feel misinformed, I apologize once again, that was not my intention. We can talk about my flaws if you want, I am always up for some learnin'!

 

Im pretty sure all specs get bloodthirst.

 

Indeed they do, every Sith Warrior gets access to Berserk, Predation and Bloodthirst.

 

Then you got those bosses where you have to periodically run away from them out of line of sight so that your DOTs can keep ticking on them and sometimes you don't even miss a chance to reapply them when you run back.

 

That is why I believe that Annihilation is weak in these kind of fights. If every DOT drops, you lose dps while you are trying to "get back on your feet" dps-wise.

Edited December 15, 2011 by J-Slh

[gkshow]

Carnage tree - A steady DPS / PvP-oriented tree. No need to keep stuff up.[/size]

 

- Easier to level up with

 

Annihilation tree

 

- Harder to level up with

 

 

First of all, thanks for the analysis much appreciated.

 

I wanted to ask you about the two above points.

 

I figured annihilation would be easier to level up with because of the self heals. Why do you (or others) think Carnage is easier for levelling? especially since you did mention Carnage is PvP oriented.

 

And again, I'm only interested in levelling, come end game things change

[Snugglewalrus]

The Juyo-form Fury Berserk ability that makes all the bleeds crit and restore life seems like it would be very useful in end-game content. Given that the cooldown isn't nearly as prohibitive as the Frenzy buff, an Anni spec Marauder could keep it up every time they have 30 stacks of Fury. That's a pretty consistent bit of extra healing that also buffs Anni DPS by a decent chunk at the same time.

 

I would imagine putting an Anni spec Mara in a DPS group would more or less remove the need for any kind of healing on the members of that group outside of the odd instant cast heal or HoT.

 

This sounds exactly what im looking for thanks mate i'll try it out hopefully be on in the next batch of invites

[Tyzall]

Im pretty sure all specs get bloodthirst.

 

I figured (being mentioned in the general overview) that it had some sort of extra benefit in Carnage, but after looking over the trees, I don't see anything that increases it.

[J-Slh]

First of all, thanks for the analysis much appreciated.

 

I wanted to ask you about the two above points.

 

I figured annihilation would be easier to level up with because of the self heals. Why do you (or others) think Carnage is easier for levelling? especially since you did mention Carnage is PvP oriented.

 

And again, I'm only interested in levelling, come end game things change

 

Look at it this way: When you are playing Annihilation and you are questing, you mostly have to left click on a mob, then charge, then Overload Saber, Rupture.. then after a few ticks the mob is dead and all is nice and easy. Now let's try to do the same with a pack; you charge one, then OS, then Rupture, then it dies, then you wait for Rupture and/or OS to come out of CD in order to kill it (I am leaving out the fact that you may use Smash/Rage Generators/Other Rage Spenders like Force Scream for this->) or even for the self healing to kick in. Until then you will most likely have to use Saber Ward and/or Cloak of Pain or Medpack in order to continue doing what you do.

 

With Carnage, you Force Charge, do a Battering Assault and the Ataru Hit procs, giving you the other procs that lead to you dealing damage. Then you go to the next mob and wait for the proc (1.5 sec internal CD). Rinse and repeat.

 

Given that I am limited as a writer of English (I am Greek), I found it easier to provide such a long argument because I didn't know how to make it concise. My apologies if I have confused you.

[gkshow]

Look at it this way: When you are playing Annihilation and you are questing, you mostly have to left click on a mob, then charge, then Overload Saber, Rupture.. then after a few ticks the mob is dead and all is nice and easy. Now let's try to do the same with a pack; you charge one, then OS, then Rupture, then it dies, then you wait for Rupture and/or OS to come out of CD in order to kill it (I am leaving out the fact that you may use Smash/Rage Generators/Other Rage Spenders like Force Scream for this->) or even for the self healing to kick in. Until then you will most likely have to use Saber Ward and/or Cloak of Pain or Medpack in order to continue doing what you do.

 

With Carnage, you Force Charge, do a Battering Assault and the Ataru Hit procs, giving you the other procs that lead to you dealing damage. Then you go to the next mob and wait for the proc (1.5 sec internal CD). Rinse and repeat.

 

Given that I am limited as a writer of English (I am Greek), I found it easier to provide such a long argument because I didn't know how to make it concise. My apologies if I have confused you.

 

Haha no worries, I very much appreciate the input!

 

I'm still in the middle, debating whether I should go with Jugger or Mara...So I'm trying to gather as much info as possible before selecting my AC.

 

Yes, based on this post you just did, it does make to go Carnage road.

 

And then back to the Jugger vs Mara debate lol.

[J-Slh]

Marauder is cooler!

 

Double the bzbzbzbzbbzzzzzzzzz , double the fun!

[gkshow]

Oh I know, DW is really the main reason I want to focus on the Mara...but I know that later on in the game when/if I want to tank, I'll kick myself for not picking Jugger, and having to level up a new toon.

[Zauberkind]

someone got a link from a good carnage tree?

i think i dont need to skill the full tree

[Jotunn]

I dont think you need to worry about DoT's being dispelled.

 

They're very short duration anyway, and there's only one class that can dispell them and that spell has a 4.5sec cooldown anyway.

 

No problem

[J-Slh]

someone got a link from a good carnage tree?

i think i dont need to skill the full tree

 

Here, friend!

[MiddleWilko]

Thanks for you input on thread J-Slh!

[MiseryMachine]

For the Carnage people, how well does the game let you know when you proc Blood Frenzy and/or Towering Rage so that you can get the crit chance bonus from Force Scream? Edited December 19, 2011 by MiseryMachine

[JustinxDuff]

someone got a link from a good carnage tree?

i think i dont need to skill the full tree

 

Here is my lv50 spec:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100ZhMrdddrRrsZrM0M.1

[Exiledtyrant]

I havent seen this mentioned yet so I'll just add Anhil makes viscious slash extremely rage effcient after adding the 3 skill points. during any dot down time you can literally spam this move after every rage builder instead of having to waste two globals to build rage.

[Nakolan]

For the Carnage people, how well does the game let you know when you proc Blood Frenzy and/or Towering Rage so that you can get the crit chance bonus from Force Scream?

 

You get a little buff graphic on your buff bar

[AgustinSarro]

Annihilation deals way more damage than carnage if you think it this way: Annihilation has very powerful strikes (Annihilate) that deals around 9k if you are properly geared. Anni uses Juyo form that stacks up to 6 times (which increases your damage by 12%). It builds rage faster with close quarters Force Charge and Battering Assault / Assault. Rupter damage is incresed (through build) and its Bleed effects deal a lot of damage plus if you have used your Deadly Sabers which stack bleed effects on target 3 times and deal great damage plus the use of Berserk which increases it's critical chance by 100%, combined that you can use powerful strikes such as Annihilate / Vicious Slash and Vicious Throw (with Juyo Form stacked 6 times) it can burn enemies very fast. In addition Rupture has chances of its cooldown being finished with Annihilate, Vicious Slash / Throw which makes your target to take even more damage with your bleed effects. Anni is just the best build in my oppinion, though it's the hardest to use. Edited December 15, 2013 by AgustinSarro