STOP SP grinding

[NRieh]

Imagine if you didn't group much 1-50 and barely had any social and then at 50 you couldn't rerun flashpoints.

Should we basing on the very same logic add something like "Imagine if you didn't craft much 1-50 and barely have any skill, then at 50 we should have....(insert option for boosting skillpoints like 50 per craft)"? Don't you think it's pretty much the same thing? You craft - you gain skill points. You group - you get social points. You dont do anything - you don't gain anything. Where exactly my logic fails?

[Bootcha]

Should we basing on the very same logic add something like "Imagine if you didn't craft much 1-50 and barely have any skill, then at 50 we should have....(insert option for boosting skillpoints like 50 per craft)"? Don't you think it's pretty much the same thing? You craft - you gain skill points. You group - you get social points. You dont do anything - you don't gain anything. Where exactly my logic fails?

 

The problem is the social point system only rewards concurrent progression. I group of with guildies and randoms who need help with content I've already done. However, that means I can't interact with the cutscene dialogue choices, in turn denying me any social point gain. Grouping, in this case, does not mean I get social points. Unless you have a buddy or three that will always be there when you run your missions and progress on the exact mission completion path as you, never going ahead or behind, then you will miss a lot of social point gains. Flashpoints are the most accessible and easiest methods for social point gain, since they put everyone on the same mission progression.

 

If TOR let me gain social points from grouping up with people without needing to be a part of cutscene conversations, then I wouldn't need to grind BT/Esseles, I could play naturally. But as it stands, it's a system that requires specific interaction, and the BT/Esseles gives the best gain for those interactions.

 

ADDITIONAL:

 

You equate crafting progression to social point progression. That is not true. If I'm level 50 and decide to drop one skill and start over again with another, there is nothing preventing me from maxing out the new skill. I can go back to earlier planets, node farm, and/or craft till my eyes bleed, and I will progress that skill despite being overleveled or having completed prior content. I can't go back to earlier missions I've already done with people aside from heroic dailys to get my social points up to where a toon of my level should be. So one thing you're correct one is if you use/perform crew skills, you will level those crew skills. But social points do not function in the same, broad way.

 

Also, some people want to improve their affection level with their companions to help with crafting and open up their side-quests and/or romance options. If you group, it eliminates that possibility, meaning you'll either have to grind companion gifts, or buy them off the market. Considering those who don't take slicing or don't make use of alternate income sources, that can be more expensive than it's worth. Grouping up excludes companion progression, and some people value their companions more than social points. However, they still do value social points, and thus there's little room to do both.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Bootcha

[ragamer]

To the OP... Don't get this wrong, but I think you are relatively new to MMOs.

 

Will try to explain you why you are seeing those "SP grinds"...

 

...It's because some ppl came to this game to reach L50 ASAP, mostly by skiping content as much as they could and they are already used to "press spacebar" (or just by PvPing, that gives nothing on the SP department and is tons faster than PvE)...

 

...Obviously they skipped "Storyline driven MMO" line and are just playing this game as they did on their previous one. Suddenly they perceive some curiously looking gear (I can bet credits on which particular one) and after inspecting the person they discover with horror...

 

..." Requires Social X".

 

 

So don't get concerned about those users... Doesn't matter the meaning SP was originally meant to... They do not care, they just care about "getting them all" .

 

I have played as much as possible in groups and I have reached L50 with Social V without having to be obssessed by them... So rest assured that if you enjoy the social aspects you will get them opened for you...

 

...For the grinders, just ignore them, they have been adequately trained on what to do to get the cookie and it really makes no sense investing effort in correcting that...

 

...If you are concerned about distinguishing them, just ask something related to their Class quest and enjoy the answers you will receive .

Edited January 25, 2012 by ragamer

[Chiaki]

To the OP... Don't get this wrong, but I think you are relatively new to MMOs.

 

Will try to explain you why you are seeing those "SP grinds"...

 

...It's because some ppl came to this game to reach L50 ASAP, mostly by skiping content as much as they could and they are already used to "press spacebar" (or just by PvPing, that gives nothing on the SP department and is tons faster than PvE)...

 

...Obviously they skipped "Storyline driven MMO" line and are just playing this game as they did on their previous one. Suddenly they perceive some curiously looking gear (I can bet credits on which particular one) and after inspecting the person they discover with horror...

 

..." Requires Social X".

 

 

So don't get concerned about those users... Doesn't matter the meaning SP was originally meant to... They do not care, they just care about "getting them all" .

 

I have played as much as possible in groups and I have reached L50 with Social V without having to be obssessed by them... So rest assured that if you enjoy the social aspects you will get them opened for you...

 

...For the grinders, just ignore them, they have been adequately trained on what to do to get the cookie and it really makes no sense investing effort in correcting that...

 

...If you are concerned about distinguishing them, just ask something related to their Class quest and enjoy the answers you will receive .

 

Only social 5? Correlia stuff requires social 10 so without Esseles/BT farming you'd never reach it. If the points were implemented the right way we wouldn't need to grind those 2 flashpoints at all. Why do ppl care what others do in game that doesn't really effect them, I never get this one.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Chiaki

[Glzmo]

The simple way to fix this is to increase overall social points gain immensely. Currently, earning social points is slow, boring, tedious and not fun. I've played one character in groups all the way to level 50 and haven't even reached Social IV yet. The social points gain needs to be increased by a lot and people would start grouping more and having fun instead of grinding the points.

 

Of course, chat bubbles would help with grouping and socializing, too.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Glzmo

[ragamer]

Only social 5? Correlia stuff requires social 10 so without Esseles/BT farming you'd never reach it. If the points were implemented the right way we wouldn't need to grind those 2 flashpoints at all. Why do ppl care what others do in game that doesn't really effect them, I never get this one.

 

Because I cared about been social?... Not the loot associated with it?

 

Can you grasp the difference? The "cookie" we look for is not the same...

 

...You grind... I socialize.

[gregordunbar]

Where exactly my logic fails?

 

I do believe his point is that if they do what you are asking is that anyone that did NOT group while leveling will have almost no way at all to gain social points.

 

This basically forces people to have to group while leveling. Forced grouping is never good.

 

The social point system must be expanded before any changes to what you can currently get from flashpoints, that may have been his point.

[VicSkimmr]

Where did you get this from? I got both online and RL ingame contacts, I never undervalued grouping and FPs themselves.

 

 

Running an outleveled by 10++ lv fp several times in a raw spacebaring everything is nowdays called "enjoying group content",huh?

 

 

Oh yes, so much challange in killing grey mobs that die from your single aoe....

 

Once again, in case someone does not read anything xept for the last post in a thread - I DO understand we lack of SP gaining ways (both combat and non-combat) atm, yet I DO NOT consider it a proper reason for keeping that grinding farm up. Level restriction on SP gain is the simple nice thing devs may do about it, imo. You'll have about 3-5 lvls to "enjoy your group content" for rewards, and then - well, you still may still enjoy it, watch different scenarios etc. But no SP, same way as no exp.

 

What on earth are you talking about? I'm talking about running through flashpoints for your current level. We should be getting more social points for them. Since we aren't, we're forced to either group up for the solo content or farm BT.

 

You're requesting that they remove one of only 2 ways for people to get social points instead of asking that they fix the system to begin with. You should be requesting that flashpoints give more social points in general, then your issue with people farming BT would magically go away.

Edited January 25, 2012 by VicSkimmr

[Chiaki]

Because I cared about been social?... Not the loot associated with it?

 

Can you grasp the difference? The "cookie" we look for is not the same...

 

...You grind... I socialize.

 

And your point? Does my grinding effect you?

[NRieh]

To the OP... Don't get this wrong, but I think you are relatively new to MMOs.

Oh well... VERY relatively then... Those were called MUDs when I had my first ones... if you know what this word is about...

 

And I had some major of the modern ones also (wow, la, swg etc). I know those (especially some blizzy-bluish) usually position grinding as a big feature, yet It seemed to me (for a moment) that ToR could go better. At least words "grinding" and "social" stand together that bad, so that I could not keep from starting this thread.

 

And I'm glad that most people would, likely, love to have more logical and nice ways to get SP, not only "we need more gear, here and now, and asap, so - ****".

 

Still, the concept of "here and now" apparently exist. And currenl design encourages it much. Game is not even two months old, and some do think that if they hit 50 it means they should by any avalible means get everything maxed.

 

And, ragamer, it seems to me we enjoy same kind of cookies.

[Sabarok]

If the end-game raids had social points, it would be a moot issue.

 

Easy solution for "farming" low level instances: Remove social & alignment gains from quests that have gone grey, but there does need to be something end-game to replace it with that people will want to do for more than just the social points.

[ceciltaru]

As others have said, there needs to be more ways to gain social points, or better SP rewards for those Flashpoints and Heroics that do not offer many conversation points in the instance.

 

if and when mini-games like pazaak and sabaac are implemented, they should give SP as well.

 

And while currently it is possible to get the most SP from BT/Esseles, the others do offer opportunities to gain SP outside of the instance. If the community would adopt a simple standard when LFG, then we could at least have some other options as implemented.

 

For example:

 

LFG Mandalorian Raiders -- means, you can or have flagged the Mandalorian Raiders FP

 

LFG Mandalorian Raiders SP or LFG SP Mandalorian Raiders -- means you can flag the Mandalorian Raiders FP, and when the group is assembled at the console, the start conversation will take place. In addition, everyone turns in at the end. Theres at least 2 conversation points in the start, so 8-16 sp right there, and at least 3 at the turn-in conversation, so another 12-24 sp there as well.

[Tikonderoga]

OP is right.

 

First of all - If it's called "social point" and provide "social rewards", only people who do something social - like grouping for quests - should be awarded with it. Otherwise just name it "dialogue points" or something else and let them grind for it.

 

Second, more important - people grind for it because SP system provides some really nice item sets for specific classes (or companions). All these orange socketable slave girl sets, etc. Remove sockets from it, make it pure RP item, problem solved.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Tikonderoga

[littleming]

Unfortunately the social point system doesn't reward players for actually doing group activities, playing with other players, and being social. But instead selectively rewards players for grinding.

 

You try finding players to go through every line of dialog with you while you are leveling. Good luck in advance.

 

I have. My girlfriend. And I'll tell you this... we're level 20 now, and we're still only have about 300 social points.

 

It's terrible. I imagine by the time we hit 50 if we do every single quest in the game together, we'd only be social 2 halfway to social 3.

Edited January 25, 2012 by littleming

[Chiaki]

OP is right.

 

First of all - If it's called "social point" and provide "social rewards", only people who do something social - like grouping for quests - should be awarded with it. Otherwise just name it "dialogue points" or something else and let them grind for it.

 

Second, more important - people grind for it because SP system provides some really nice item sets for specific classes (or companions). All these orange socketable slave girl sets, etc. Remove sockets from it, make it pure RP item, problem solved.

 

What you call "social rewards" aren't rewarded to those that actually do all the grouping from lvl 1-50. At most you'll end up at social 4-5 at lvl 50, there are items that needs social 10. How else will you get it if not for BT/Esseles?

[NRieh]

At most you'll end up at social 4-5 at lvl 50, there are items that needs social 10. How else will you get it if not for BT/Esseles?

And who ever told you that you should be able to get it asap? It takes time to get exp. It takes time to get sp. It SHOULD take lot of time to get max socials. Game is not yet 2 month on live! And current lack of ways is a good reason for forcing BW to do something about it, and you just tell them "its ok, never mind, I'll go run that instance 20 times, I need sp asap, who cares".

[CharagonIGN]

It's BioWare's fault for making the first flashpoint the only reliable method of gaining social points at any decent rate.

 

If they didn't half-*** every other flashpoint afterwards this wouldn't be an issue and you could continuing gaining social points as you leveled.

[Anathar]

imo sp was a bad idea all around.

 

just like the "bonus" quests.

 

i say they remove them both.

 

never made any sense to me why some want to do the tedious stuff that really serves no point.

 

dont get me wrong ive grinded my way to over 100 mounts in wow on 7 toons (each, mind you)...i did the betrayal quest 4 times in EQ2 because it was the only thing fun about that game imo...

 

but the SP thing is just a way for the devs to attempt to force ppl into groups. devs are always trying to force players into groups instead of just letting people have fun.

 

just like the digital upgrade was a huge let down...like the security key vendor that some are complaining about.

 

bioware just did a lot of stuff that added nothing but fluff...along with the game still feeling like im paying to be a beta tester.

 

imo they need to add more to do solo in mmos and stop trying to force people into groups. the people that want to group will group no matter what...but those that like playing alone never get any bonuses at all. and yes im aware what mmo means...its the social aspect of the game gets it the "multiplayer" title not some whacked vision of people all doing the same thing at the same time whether they like it or not.

 

imo devs need to stop trying to limit what players do in games and encourage diversity instead.

 

we all get pegged into these little holes IRL why choose to do to yourself in a game?

Edited January 27, 2012 by Anathar

[RobNightfall]

And who ever told you that you should be able to get it asap? It takes time to get exp. It takes time to get sp. It SHOULD take lot of time to get max socials. Game is not yet 2 month on live! And current lack of ways is a good reason for forcing BW to do something about it, and you just tell them "its ok, never mind, I'll go run that instance 20 times, I need sp asap, who cares".

 

Except that I have a life. It seems that you don't, but I do. I want the one decent looking set of robes in the game and it's social 6. Now to my way of thinking, especially since they don't have mods and will actually weaken me in PvP due to losing set bonuses (which is something I care about), I should simply be able to buy them. But since a grind apparently is needed, and I like to get laid, and no one can make decent looking robes, I'm going to grind them as quickly as possible.

Edited January 27, 2012 by RobNightfall

[NRieh]

Except that I have a life. It seems that you don't, but I do. I want the one decent looking set of robes in the game and it's social 6. Now to my way of thinking, especially since they don't have mods and will actually weaken me in PvP due to losing set bonuses (which is something I care about), I should simply be able to buy them. But since a grind apparently is needed, and I like to get laid, and no one can make decent looking robes, I'm going to grind them as quickly as possible.

Oh yes, grinding has so much to do with "having life", I should've guessed.

Aslo going into personals hardly ever brings good.

[lucasomega]

Are there any social gains for downing world/flashpoint/operation bosses? I don't think there are and really there should be social point rewards for that, and for PvP as well. Why not? We're all grouping up and doing it together.

[lucasomega]

Except that I have a life. It seems that you don't, but I do.

 

Don't even go there dude. You are playing SWTOR and posting on the forums for it. Oddly enough, on a thread about grinding "social" points.

[AsheraII]

You're trying to fight the symptom, not the disease. The Social Point system is extremely flawed. One could write an essay about all the social possibilities in this game, without mentioning the one single feature that rewards social points: group conversation rolls.

 

Join a guild: not a single social point

Form a group to get that last mob on a bonus mission down: not a single social point

Heal/Help/Save another player who's loosing a fight against some mobs: not a single social point

Grant some other player your classbuff: not a single social point

Be active in the chat channels: not a single social point

Be a good team player in a warzone: not a single social point

 

It's very easy to get to lvl 50 and be a very social player, yet still be under Social II.

 

And it shouldn't be hard to introduce some very small things to reward these things:

-For every X experience yielding mobs / valor rewarding players killed while grouped, gain Y social points

-Random chance at getting a social point for talking in chat (social points AND social gear can be removed from your character at a GM's discretion for spamming)

-1 Social point for granting another player your class buff (max one point per targetted player per day, only counts when the player doesn't have your class-buff yet)

 

Yes, some people may stand on the fleet all day buffing other players. Who cares, you get your beneficial buff, and they'll quickly run out of targets since there's going to be more than one person doing that. An Esseles run may still be the fastest way to get some Social Points, but at least it won't be the only way anymore.

 

Social IV and Social V requirements on gear? You got to be kidding, that's just an invitation for multiboxers, since those are the only ones who are more or less guaranteed to be grouped with another character 24/7 /played.

Edited January 27, 2012 by AsheraII

[Jtheargonaut]

It's hardly a secret to anyone, that today social points are gained much via Esseles sp runs, then via common grouping questing (which, I suppose, was the original idea of those points - to encourage players teamwork, to make them work together since the very beginning, and not just in some endgame).

 

Game is JUST 1 month old and I already often see in Fleet something like "Esseles sp run, need to know how to skip movies". Imo, it just screws the whole idea of SP. I agree that system may and even must be somewhat improved, more usefull items etc....yet, I'm absolutely sure, that what we have now just kills the basic idea of it.

 

Why not limit SP gain with just 1 run? Why not to put a level restriction(the MOST OBVIOUS solution)? Do BW so afraid of an angry ex-wow grinders army?

 

I don't join groups lookins for "social" runs. But for those who say the system is flawed.. i don't see it.

 

I group with my wife, and a few guild members every night we play. We do world quests. Then maybe a Flashpoint before we log for the night. It's fun to roll against your group members to see how the conversation goes.

[Darth-Piranha]

Let them do what they want if they pay their sub every month. I don't give a flying farg how you earned your sp/creds/shinygear/pvpgear etc etc, If they are not cheating or exploiting then who cares.

 

^This

 

Don't have a problem with sp grinding, neither should you!

So it stays...