Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Starglide]

I just wanted to note, I think today's update is a huge step in the right direction and with the responsiveness changes and this, it is obvious BioWare is listening.

 

We stated both responsive issues and that it was a good idea to get guild leaders and ranked players to work hand and hand with developers. They have acted upon both.

 

I think it would be safe to assume they aren't just blowing smoke when they say "even if we don't respond, we are listening!".

 

XCore, did you get an invite? If not, I recommend you apply--I did.

[Mutica]

It seems like some people are seeing improvements; but by in large I have not seen any as a shadow dps; in fact I will say that I 'feel' its getting worse with each patch. The shadow strike stutter, while it makes playing this class incredibly frustrating in pvp... now rears its ugly head constantly in pve. Combat is unbelievably slow. The animation lag + the GCD; I feel like I'm constantly waiting to use an ability... not very heroic feeling imo.

 

I know for many that they are fine with these things; but this game is imo miles and miles away from being responsive and appealing to competitive players. I admire the optimism of many of you, but these are problems that have been present since beta, so for some people they have been waiting several months for fixes not just one month. So, friends of mine that were in the beta and played their first month have left. I think I'm willing to wait another month; but I think I'm hoping for a miracle. Problems that weren't fixed in beta, to me it seems that there are fundamental issues with how the code was written or the game designed that make this an issue that won't be fixed. This game will probably succeed as a niche mmo; but EA/Bioware's hopes of being competitive with Blizzard keep diminishing as this issue makes its way into more and more conversations outside SWTOR.

 

I also do not see how the development and deployment of new content takes precedence over fixing the major bugs... or implementing character transfer on the PTS so bug fixes can actually be tested in a proper way? A whole blog post about bug fixes, when the PTS system is severely flawed for testing said fixes? Actions speak louder than words; it took a monumental effort to get Bioware to acknowledge a problem that has plagued this game since beta. Lack of a proper working PTS makes testing fixes properly almost impossible. And imo the developers have placed a precedence on the release of new content over resolving bug fixes.

[SoupyNuggs]

I also do not see how the development and deployment of new content takes precedence over fixing the major bugs... And imo the developers have placed a precedence on the release of new content over resolving bug fixes.

 

Been said a million times, the content development team are separate people from the bug fix team. And before you chime in with "well they should reallocate resources from content development to fixing bugs, i.e. lay off content ppl and hire more coders", please realize that sometimes, adding more people to a bug fixing team actually decreases efficiency and only adds clutter+confusion to a bug fixing workflow.

[al_giordino]

Don't worry guys, they are coming out with a patch that will patch the patch that patched the patch that patched the patch that patched the patch.

[Mutica]

Been said a million times, the content development team are separate people from the bug fix team. And before you chime in with "well they should reallocate resources from content development to fixing bugs, i.e. lay off content ppl and hire more coders", please realize that sometimes, adding more people to a bug fixing team actually decreases efficiency and only adds clutter+confusion to a bug fixing workflow.

 

I agree with you completely... adding more man hours to a project doesn't equate to getting it done faster... which to me reinforces what I think are fundamental problems in how the game was originally developed. 1) How do you develop a game that has these types of gameplay bugs? Its a video game you want it to be responsive above all else. What does this say about a development team that spent 3+ years on this game? 2) If we can give them the benefit of the doubt that they somehow didn't notice these issues in 3+ years of development; then people made them aware of it during beta... so now 3-4+ months after beta, gameplay still has major issues; and in general bugs abound.

[LeonidasSith]

Has anyone considered this issue as contributing to the ability delay?

Specifically I noticed that the game runs well for me, especially after the last patch. However it becomes very choppy after some hours of play.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=154568

 

This may have the answer. To those experiencing choppy graphics and delays after the last patch, try rebooting and see if it's better. Seems to be an issue with the engine intensively loading stuff from the hard drive instead of memory, made worse by memory leaks.

 

Most of the ability delays have been fixed for me as of yesterday, I even tried mounting the speeder and moving immediately. It works now.

[Mutica]

Has anyone considered this issue as contributing to the ability delay?

Specifically I noticed that the game runs well for me, especially after the last patch. However it becomes very choppy after some hours of play.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=154568

 

This may have the answer. To those experiencing choppy graphics and delays after the last patch, try rebooting and see if it's better. Seems to be an issue with the engine intensively loading stuff from the hard drive instead of memory, made worse by memory leaks.

 

Most of the ability delays have been fixed for me as of yesterday, I even tried mounting the speeder and moving immediately. It works now.

 

I might be willing to try this, but I'm hesitant to install software of a forum post recommendation. For the record, I experience lots of gameplay problems and I have a pretty nice rig. I have an SSD, 16 gigs of Ram, an unlocked i7, and an Radeon 6870. I've heard rumors that the game actually runs a little worse on beefier rigs? But haven't seen anything substantiated.

[LeonidasSith]

I might be willing to try this, but I'm hesitant to install software of a forum post recommendation. For the record, I experience lots of gameplay problems and I have a pretty nice rig. I have an SSD, 16 gigs of Ram, an unlocked i7, and an Radeon 6870. I've heard rumors that the game actually runs a little worse on beefier rigs? But haven't seen anything substantiated.

 

Fair enough. But whenever you experience a lot of lag/delay, try rebooting. If you see a massive improvement, then this could provide a fix for your issue.

[Tekkoclarky]

so now 3-4+ months after beta, gameplay still has major issues; and in general bugs abound.

 

Christmas was 3-4 months ago? edit: lol I should l2read.

 

Not even 2 full months have passed since the game was released, sorry. edit:

 

I'm currently PVPing for the first time in a few weeks and I notice a big difference.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Tekkoclarky

[SoupyNuggs]

I agree with you completely... adding more man hours to a project doesn't equate to getting it done faster... which to me reinforces what I think are fundamental problems in how the game was originally developed. 1) How do you develop a game that has these types of gameplay bugs? Its a video game you want it to be responsive above all else. What does this say about a development team that spent 3+ years on this game? 2) If we can give them the benefit of the doubt that they somehow didn't notice these issues in 3+ years of development; then people made them aware of it during beta... so now 3-4+ months after beta, gameplay still has major issues; and in general bugs abound.

 

A game on a scale+scope this large will have variables almost impossible for a dev team to accommodate for perfectly.

 

Fixing issues for one group of players and their machines may cause unforeseen problems on machines with different graphics cards/processors/specs. That's not my opinion, but just the reality of the situation.

 

Imagine a sine curve where equilibrium is a perfectly smooth game for 100% of its players. As the BW team address bugs, they move closer to equilibrium but constantly offset from equilibrium as new problems arise for other machines. Think about the combination of PC hardware configurations you can have if you permute the makers, brands, model, editions, etc. The complexity of game development doesn't excuse a buggy game, but it's not like BW isn't doing what it should as a profit-seeking, player-appeasing game developer in patching and updating as best as it can.

[Mutica]

Christmas was 3-4 months ago? edit: lol I should l2read.

 

Not even 2 full months have passed since the game was released, sorry. edit:

 

I'm currently PVPing for the first time in a few weeks and I notice a big difference.

 

Um I said 3-4 months after Beta not when the game was released...u trolling or couldn't read?

Edited February 1, 2012 by Mutica

[Tekkoclarky]

Um I said 3-4 months after Beta not when the game was released...u trolling or couldn't read?

 

Read my edit, you quoted it

 

I just decided to leave my mistake in, instead of deleting it...

[Valsdad]

Has anyone considered this issue as contributing to the ability delay?

Specifically I noticed that the game runs well for me, especially after the last patch. However it becomes very choppy after some hours of play.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=154568

 

This may have the answer. To those experiencing choppy graphics and delays after the last patch, try rebooting and see if it's better. Seems to be an issue with the engine intensively loading stuff from the hard drive instead of memory, made worse by memory leaks.

 

Most of the ability delays have been fixed for me as of yesterday, I even tried mounting the speeder and moving immediately. It works now.

 

I've noticed that when I first start playing the game runs as fresh as spring day, but the longer I play it seems to get bogged down and choppy to the point that I just turn it off and do something else.

 

Even after I FINALLY get swtor client to close; my box is still choppy and unresponsive even while reporting very little CPU and RAM usage.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Valsdad

[Mutica]

I've noticed that when I first start playing the game runs as fresh as spring day, but the longer I play it seems to get bogged down and choppy to the point that I just turn it off and do something else.

 

Even after I FINALLY get swtor client to close; my box is still choppy and unresponsive even while reporting very little CPU and RAM usage.

 

I notice a little of that too, so I usually try to restart every hour or so... but looking at my cpu/gpu and ram usage, nothing indicates it as being taxed. CPU usage sits below 15 or 20% if I only have the game on and the RAM usage is around 30%.

[Xcore]

I just wanted to note, I think today's update is a huge step in the right direction and with the responsiveness changes and this, it is obvious BioWare is listening.

 

We stated both responsive issues and that it was a good idea to get guild leaders and ranked players to work hand and hand with developers. They have acted upon both.

 

I think it would be safe to assume they aren't just blowing smoke when they say "even if we don't respond, we are listening!".

 

XCore, did you get an invite? If not, I recommend you apply--I did.

 

Sorry what should I apply to?

[Starglide]

Everybody see the new patch notes? Now THATS what the hell im talking about!!!

 

God BioWare, let me test it!!!!

Edited February 2, 2012 by Starglide

[Xcore]

Everybody see the new patch notes? Now THATS what the hell im talking about!!!

 

God BioWare, let me test it!!!!

 

Again, what is it I should be applying to? The Guild Leader thing? I'm not a Guild Leader in SW:TOR...

[Turando]

I have to say, you really need to give BW credit for throwing all-in on this problem.

 

1.0.d had a big time fix they looked to emergency patch in

1.1.1 had a load of improvements

1.1.2 ..... on the PTS

 

Improved response time for ability activation requests in low-framerate situations.

Implemented further improvements to ability responsiveness and client-side anticipation of ability executions.

The activation bar now appears at the correct time (when the activation of an ability begins) and disappears when activation is complete.

Abilities on cooldown are now more easily distinguished from abilities that can be used.

 

Thank you Xcore and the rest of the community of respectfully and persistently communicating the issues. This probably isn't the complete end, but I am very satisfied with the results and resolve of the BW team.

[Phishums]

OP doesn't know what quotation marks are for. o.O

 

That aside, I totally agree that this is a big issue, and I'm glad it's being looked into. That's one of the first things I noticed once I got into SW:TOR, the delay between hitting a key and the ability actually activating. Makes gameplay in general feel very clunky and frustrating, let alone in warzones and flashpoints.

[Terko_Koslah]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=262045

 

Another thread on the subject. I liked the video on this one a lot.

[Wikar]

I have to say, you really need to give BW credit for throwing all-in on this problem.

 

1.0.d had a big time fix they looked to emergency patch in

1.1.1 had a load of improvements

1.1.2 ..... on the PTS

 

Improved response time for ability activation requests in low-framerate situations.

Implemented further improvements to ability responsiveness and client-side anticipation of ability executions.

The activation bar now appears at the correct time (when the activation of an ability begins) and disappears when activation is complete.

Abilities on cooldown are now more easily distinguished from abilities that can be used.

 

Thank you Xcore and the rest of the community of respectfully and persistently communicating the issues. This probably isn't the complete end, but I am very satisfied with the results and resolve of the BW team.

 

Will not believe it until i can feel it after 1.1.2

[TeoHTime]

Going to shove my post in here since this thread has been ressurrected. Showing how abilities are handled on client/server by running torrents to increase my latency:

 

 

 

The video describes most of the examples, but i'll go into a TLDR rant anyway.

 

Not all abilities function the same when pressed, some instant cast immediate abilities will get confirmation from the server before they activate, meaning the beginning of the animation is delayed based on your latency. On the otherhand, some abilities will trigger an animation immediately on your client as soon as the button is pressed - This animation is started before you have actually performed the ability on the server, it isn't confirmed, it's simply a client side illusion. Once the server confirms the ability, the animation then appears to start again, possibly skipping back a few frames on your screen before it plays in full and damage is applied.

 

You can see this on a Jedi Shadow with Shadow Strike (backstab), Spinning Strike (execute) and Saber Strike (autoattack). There are potentially more but i didn't test every button. These abilities begin their animations immediately, then restart the animation, or stutter once the server confirms the ability is actually being performed. In some cases this can cause your animation to begin, and then stop without the move completing, because the server decides after the fact that you aren't able to perform that ability for some reason. (Mob isnt facing away anymore/mob got healed above 30% life/you got stunned or something before the ability registered on the server). The fake animation and GCD trigger missleads you into believing you have performed the attack, and it's not untill a moment later that you realise the character isn't actually going to backstab the mob. You lose time after realising you need to press the button again to try and make the ability work.

 

On the otherhand, abilities like Clairvoyant Strike (Sinister Strike) are confirmed before any animation plays. This means there is a delay between pressing the button and the animation starting, however as soon as the animation starts, the attack will complete and damage will be applied.

 

You can also see from the video, that the first GCD lockout on your buttons is triggered immediately on first button press, this means again that it is a client side illusion and not confirmed by the server. As a result of this, you will regularly see the GCD timer finish before your first ability has finished its delayed animation, and assuming the GCD is enforced on the server, your abilities will appear to be available before your GCD has finished on the server version of events.

 

Now remember that the ability animation won't start untill the server confirms the attack, or in the case of abilities like backstab the animation will restart and play from the beginning when the attack is confirmed. This means the end of the animation is pretty much synced to the server animation, even though your GCD isn't. Animations in SWTOR all seem to last about as long as the GCD, and this creates the illusion that your abilities are being limited by delayed animations, because your next attack won't begin untill the previous animation finishes, while your GCD indicator falsely claims that you should be able to attack.

 

The same issue applies to casted abilities - the cast bar is not confirmed by the server and appears immediately on your client when you press the button. This means your cast bar does not accurately display when your ability will finish casting on the server. Depending on wether SWTOR gives priority to client or server versions of events in different situations, this may result in your ability being interupted after you've already seen the cast bar complete, or interupts against enemy casts failing even though you interupted before their cast completed on your screen. Among various other whacky problems.

 

In summary, SWTOR operates in a way that tries to hide the effects of latency in some situations, but that doesn't mean the latency is not there. The decisions made about how to handle latency result in false information being given to the player, and that makes combat feel clumsy. Now it's normal for online games to lie to some degree about what's happening on screen, or to take client side information as true and roll back or alter the server state instead of confirming everything server side - an MMO without client side movement would play very poorly - but there are some situations where it simply isn't appropriate.

 

WoW confirms all attacks and the beginning of any cast, including heals on the server side, it also confirms the status of the GCD timer with the server. This means when you begin to cast a heal, there is a slight delay before the cast bar appears depending on your latency. However, because the cast timer and the GCD timer are confirmed by the server, the information on screen about when your cast will finish and when you are next able to use an attack is always accurate.

 

To make things feel as crisp as WoW, you first need to change how these client side illusions work. You need the GCD on your first ability, and the cast bar on your first cast to not count down untill the server confirms it, so that these timers are correct. You absolutely shouldn't be playing any ability animations untill an ability has actually triggered, because an instant cast ability stopping mid-animation is horrendous. You need to make sure casted abilities used back to back properly queue, and the cast bar for the 2nd cast is displayed as soon as the server confirms it, even while your character is still in the 'throw stuff' animation following the completion of the first cast. This stuff has to be accurate for combat to feel clean.

[aleiro]

Nice post by the OP, sadly Bioware seem to be more concerned with nerfing than correcting game breaking issues that are so important for this game.

[cereph]

Nice post by the OP, sadly Bioware seem to be more concerned with nerfing than correcting game breaking issues that are so important for this game.

 

Are you serious? The last 3 patches have had fixes addressing these issues, and the next one will as well. Are you just trolling, or do you hate this game so much that you ignore what the company that made it is actually doing to try and bring it down?

[aleiro]

I have to say, you really need to give BW credit for throwing all-in on this problem.

 

1.0.d had a big time fix they looked to emergency patch in

1.1.1 had a load of improvements

1.1.2 ..... on the PTS

 

Improved response time for ability activation requests in low-framerate situations.

Implemented further improvements to ability responsiveness and client-side anticipation of ability executions.

The activation bar now appears at the correct time (when the activation of an ability begins) and disappears when activation is complete.

Abilities on cooldown are now more easily distinguished from abilities that can be used.

 

Thank you Xcore and the rest of the community of respectfully and persistently communicating the issues. This probably isn't the complete end, but I am very satisfied with the results and resolve of the BW team.

 

I am sorry but I felt some improvement after 1.0.d but it was for a couple of days only. Just the other day I was trying to "Force Stasis" someone in a fire trap in huttball to prevent them from scoring. It took me 4 seconds before stasis hit, by then the guy was almost above the goal line...

 

They may say that they are working on it, however, they also said that the warzone win quest was working properly, and that you can abandon old chains of quests from your journal...Let's just say my faith in BW was shaken and I will have to feel it in game to beleive it.