Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Klarick]

I can't say it affects everyone or it's just not noticeable by all and even less noticeable on certain classes because I have not played all classes yet, however if you play a jedi sentinel you will definitely see it in PvP if you have even just a little skill.

 

I haven't played the Sentinel. Im sure I will at some point. Considering that most that are experiencing the problem are reporting large delays and having to hit abilities many times to get them to fire, I doubt "skill" has anything to do with detecting the problem. For those that are affected by the delay the issue seems to be very obvious.

[trublmaker]

lol you continue to claim flaws in logic but fail to understand yourself that a "claim to a flaw" is completely irrelevant without any deconstruction or showcasing proof...

 

I've showcased everything I claimed in both Video and through the help of the community... there is simply no flaw in my logic or my claims here.

 

When I state an opinion I say so, when I state a fact I do so with provided evidence as well as/or backup through logic....

 

 

Once again, you have "zero" supporters here for a reason, you should really re-evaluate your standpoint... for your own sake. Every single person following the threadline can see your quite obviously and blatant vendetta here...

 

 

Cute.

 

Champion logic with logical fallacies. Well played sir!

[trublmaker]

Okay, let's put the Klarick issue to rest:

 

Edit: I encourage people to view the aforementioned poster's profile and see all the posts that were originally authored by him.

 

Are these typical posting patterns for a "regular" fan of the game? They seem a bit contrived, suspiciously timed and oddly antithetical to every legitimate issue brought up on the forums. I'm starting to believe Klarick knows the Hero engine all too well...

 

We are fall to the lure of pettiness at times, but I couldn't help myself--even if I suffer an infraction.

 

 

It's just looking at the poster's OPs. I don't want to make a huge deal of it, but it reminds me of well-placed PR/Marketing blurbs.

 

Anyway, keep up the good work xCore--putting observable evidence out for community ingestion always helps drive the point home and build credibility.

 

If you're praising the integrity of the OP and suggesting Klarick is a Hero Engine shill.

 

 

 

 

 

The joke is on you toots.

[Xcore]

Fixed another one for you my friend.

 

One only has to look at your posting history to see your agenda and attitude... You still have not produced any deconstruction and proof of logical fallacies.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Xcore

[Xcore]

I haven't played the Sentinel. Im sure I will at some point. Considering that most that are experiencing the problem are reporting large delays and having to hit abilities many times to get them to fire, I doubt "skill" has anything to do with detecting the problem. For those that are affected by the delay the issue seems to be very obvious.

 

One has to realize that a 0.5 second delay is not the same to everyone, It is all a matter of tolerance. To some, 0.5 seconds delay on an ability is completely unplayable and jarringly distracting while playing. Then to others it is absolutely un-noticeable as their tolerance for this is much higher.

 

I am sure there are people who would never notice a 5 second delay as they are too enamoured with the game.

 

Looking at the whole picture of this subject logically, it is actually very feasible to believe that it is not am issue affecting some and not others but rather everyone and only due to personal tolerances only some notice while others do not.

 

This is easily supported by Bioware very quick fixing and the general outcry of improvement by people who have never noticed any issue in the first place, which means that the issue was not just fixed for those who did report/notice It.

 

The theory that personal tolerances play a key role cannot be disputed as the degree to which it is experienced varies even among those who do experience it.

 

Unless Bioware flat out says that this issue of delay only affected a certain/specific group of people, it is logically far more supported that it was a general flaw with the game. Unless one build up a logically more sound theory...

 

I make these claims:

 

1) The Thread's claim was (is to a much lesser degree) affecting all who play the game as it is within the core of the game. It Is entirely possible that "some" are more affected by it due to certain hardware specifics. Nonetheless, to some degree it would be affecting everyone.

 

2) It is not necessarily noticeable by everyone as personal playstyle but more Importantly tolerances play a large role. Some believe .5 seconds delay to be unplayable, others would never notice .5 second delays. Some people are more attuned to these gameplay flaws.

 

Throughout this threadline It has been established that although even the most casual player may notice the flaws it is generally easier to notice for those players who play more competitively. This is simply due to .5 seconds in delay being more crucial at competitive levels.

 

This Is supported by the amount of Top100 Raiders, Gladiator PvPers, Professional Gamers from CS:S, Quake, LoL and WC3 reporting these issues, not a single player of this caliber has spoken against these claims.

 

 

Note: I make further claims such as this Issue being absolutely crucial to the success of the game but I actually explained the importance of these claims in the video and several times in the threadline. They are logically sound I believe unless someone would like to showcase otherwise.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Xcore

[monimoni]

The issue does exist for some players. Unfortunatly you seem affected by it. The good news is that the developers (experienced and professional programmers who code games for a living) are working on the issue and have already improved it for some. According to BW they will be pushing out some more tweaks in order to help alleviate this problem that some players are experiencing.

 

I hope your issue is resolved very soon and, in my opinion, based on the track record of Bioware, they will have you going strong in the shortest amount of time possible.

 

The issue exists for everyone, as has been pointed out numerous times. If you don't notice it, that's another matter altogether. But, every competent player in every top guild that I've spoken to has the issue. To claim otherwise is an insult to our intelligence.

[asbalana]

The issue does exist for some players. Unfortunatly you seem affected by it. The good news is that the developers (experienced and professional programmers who code games for a living) are working on the issue and have already improved it for some. According to BW they will be pushing out some more tweaks in order to help alleviate this problem that some players are experiencing.

 

I hope your issue is resolved very soon and, in my opinion, based on the track record of Bioware, they will have you going strong in the shortest amount of time possible.

 

Ability delay is not an issue. It is a catch phrase that has come to be used to encompass a large number if issues. Some of those issues are interrelated and some are independent. Some affect certain characters and not others. Some issues depend on the users computer equipment and others do not. That ability delay / issues exist is beyond refute.

 

I would expect that two players on identical equipment, the same server at the same time, and playing the same character would get the same results while traveling a code path. Program execution may provide different results based on a multitude of circumstantial factors, but those results are not arbitrary. If a specific issue exists it must uniformly exist for all players. That does not mean that all players experience the issue or experience it to the same degree. The combination of character, server, time of play, players computer equipment, lag, etc. makes each players experience unique.

 

So the statement that "the issue does exist for some players" is pure rubbish. It exists for all players and each issue affects each player to a varying degree or perhaps not at all at times if they never trip he flawed code due to their circumstance.

 

As Xcore has noted ability delay also involves a level of player perception. Although I see many of the issues titled ability delay all of the time that I play, I mostly block them out. Most fights go well enough that the ability delay is not a game play issue so my attention is elsewhere. Yes, I experience the delays but do not notice them to a large degree. But (as noted I am not a very good player), I am currently trying to kill a really tough elite as part of the level 32 SI class quest (Legacy). The initial result is that she is drop kicking my butt from one end of the temple to the next. I may have to sell one of my companions on the slave market to pay for the repair bills. I read up on the fight last night and will try again today or this weekend. But the point is that in that fight, ever split second of and each issue that is ability delay is painfully apparent and can be the difference between victory and another repair bill. From what I have read, the key to the fight is to timely interrupt and/or when you see a cast coming get out of LOS as quickly as possible. One hit from Zhan can literally take 1/2 of your HPs even if you have the barrier up. So ability delay in this fight is painfully apparent.

 

So if you want, troll on, but you are dead wrong and have no idea of what you are saying.

 

Edit - As an afterthought, I am new to BW and not familar with the company's track record. As far as getting me going strong in the shortest time possible, I do not know. At this point, considering the communication from BW and having read a large number of posts stating that the ability delay issues were idientified over and over again in all stages of beta, I do not have a warm and fuzzy feeling.

Edited January 27, 2012 by asbalana

[trublmaker]

You have established nothing, other than proving you have not played at any competitive level of any real sport. If you had, you would have understood the statements.

 

Roger Federer could play a High School Tennis player in a blizzard, on a flooded court, with a broken raquet and still put up a 6-0, 6-0, 6-0 easily without effort. Again, the blizzard didnt make the lesser player somehow magically better.

 

The New England Patriots could play any college team and beat them 80 to nothing during a black-out, tornado speed winds, and a flat football. The environment did not suddenly make the college team better, not did it make them competitive.

 

The Los Angeles Lakers could play Duke and beat them 160-20 on a muddy court, a broke rim, and kobe in a body cast. Again, no amount of "conditions" are going to make Duke more competitive.

 

Sorry, I can't relate to your soccer analogy. I'm talking about sports here. My wife and daughter play soccer.

 

All things equal: Better team/player wins.

 

I agree.

 

 

 

This is an everyday topic in "sports", I am shocked that as a "competitive athlete" you do not realize this very simple and "correct" logic. Once again to re-iterate, Barcelona vs. Wigan... pretty big difference, however one can marginalize this difference if they play on an uneven "hill" with garbage cans for goalposts and mud instead of grass.

 

Barcelona and Wigan are no longer playing soccer.

 

I agree. It's weak but correct.

[Xcore]

All things equal: Better team/player wins.

 

I agree.

 

 

 

 

 

Barcelona and Wigan are no longer playing soccer.

 

I agree. It's weak but correct.

 

If you cannot tell that bad playing conditions have greater impact on a team that generally plays with more precision then we are in deep disagreement.

 

Barcelona and Wigan would still be playing football by every standard in the rulebook, it would simply be under horrid conditions and favor the more simplistic style of Wigan and hinder the far superior style of Barcelona.

 

 

I realize that you are already predisposed to countering me and disagreeing with me as you don't particularily like me. You've even sent me PMs stating as much, still I would urge you to reconsider your stance there...

 

 

Edit: I'm not sure if you agreed or disagreed with me in that last line... Sorry, can you clear that up for me? I don't trust my reading comprehension completely here... English is my 3rd languange and it may be my fail there... Thanks.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Xcore

[Klarick]

All things equal: Better team/player wins

 

This is obvious to anyone that has played real sports at a competitive level. For some to suggest that a poor environment makes a bad player better is an insult to those that have played real sports.

[Mandrax]

If you cannot tell that bad playing conditions have greater impact on a team that generally plays with more precision then we are in deep disagreement.

 

 

Although I am fully behind your thread, I don't necessarily agree with this point. The better team should still win out, even if the environment was less than perfect for both teams. The best players can adapt more readily than the more average players.

 

I'm confident that the group of friends that I have played MMOs with for the last 8-10 years could overcome most hindrances to beat lesser players almost every time. I hate the ability delay, yet we still win far more PvP games than we lose.

[Xcore]

Although I am fully behind your thread, I don't necessarily agree with this point. The better team should still win out, even if the environment was less than perfect for both teams. The best players can adapt more readily than the more average players.

 

I'm confident that the group of friends that I have played MMOs with for the last 8-10 years could overcome most hindrances to beat lesser players almost every time. I hate the ability delay, yet we still win far more PvP games than we lose.

 

The better players should still win as they may be able to adapt but my claim is that the gap closes, where under perfect situations you will win 6-0, in a terrible environment you may only win 4-0 because you have hit the limitations of the system and cannot play any better while the "bad" players still play to their maximum potential.

 

Then if you throw in general emotions and frustrations at the system and you may play a bit sloppier even still.

 

The argument is not as Black and White as "bad environment means bad players are good now", it is far more complex, so is this entire discussion on the "feeling" of complete control and responsiveness.

[Averran]

Hello everyone,

 

We have recently had to clean up a number of posts in this thread that were in violation of our Rules of Conduct and wanted to remind everyone to stay on topic while avoiding the following:

 

• Personal Attacks or Insults.
   
  
• Creating posts for the purpose of derailing the topic, eliciting negative reactions or spreading false information.
   
  
• Replying in a manner that adds nothing constructive to the conversation.
   
  
• Off-Topic back and forth conversation with other community members over who is "right" or their communication style.
  

 

We appreciate your cooperation in this matter and will continue to monitor the conversation. This thread is not being closed, please feel free to carry on so long as you abide by the forum rules.

[DarthKhaos]

I'm gonna make a level 15 and lower premade and abuse Huttball one of these days. Even do it on Republic just for the hell of it.

 

Let's see your ability delay and empire advantage now. MUHAAAA it'll be sweet. I'm soooooo gonna that posted on youtube when I do.

[brentonj]

The recent changes seem underwhelming at best. There's still quite a bit of delay, especially in comparison to say, World of Warcraft.

 

It's really unfortunate because I don't anticipate it getting much better any time soon.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Averran
comment on deleted post

[Xcore]

The recent changes seem underwhelming at best. There's still quite a bit of delay, especially in comparison to say, World of Warcraft.

 

It's really unfortunate because I don't anticipate it getting much better any time soon.

 

I noticed a really decent improvement as Gunslinger... though the overall feeling is still not as tight as WoW or as tight as It should be...

 

What class do you play and where/how do you notice it the most?

 

 

Regardless, I really would urge you to stick it out with SW:TOR until Bioware rolls out 1.1.1 and see the improvememts after that. I think the potential is there to feel just as good as WoW and they are working on it...

Edited January 27, 2012 by Averran
comment on edited post

[trublmaker]

 

Edit: I'm not sure if you agreed or disagreed with me in that last line... Sorry, can you clear that up for me? I don't trust my reading comprehension completely here... English is my 3rd languange and it may be my fail there... Thanks.

 

 

Your claim was: Environmental variables will reduce the score discrepancy between Barcelona and Wigan.

 

I agreed.

 

 

However, in the proposed scenario Barcelona and Wigan are no longer playing conventional soccer. Your analogy is valid because, Barcelona might be highly skilled at conventional soccer but find the new conditions insurmountable. Whereas, Wigan may be adept at kicking a ball up a muddy hill.

[Asnine]

This game will never feel as "fluid" as you guys WoW are expecting it to.

 

The simple nature of no animation clipping guarantees this.

 

Plus, I highly doubt that they'll fix stuff like (for example) an "instant" kb ability not actually knocking anyone back until after the animation is done (which could take anywhere up to 1.5 secs....the length of the GCD).

 

 

Don't get me wrong. There definitely are ability delay issues currently. I'm just saying if you're expecting this game to be like WoW you are going to be disappointed.

[Klarick]

I play a Marauder. Almost level 50. Will most certaintly hit 50 today. I haven't noticed the issue, but it may start at level 50. When I hit 50 I will let you know if I see the problem at that level. Edited January 27, 2012 by Notannos
changing quoted words as disruptive

[Xcore]

I play a Marauder. Almost level 50. Will most certaintly hit 50 today. I haven't noticed the issue, but it may start at level 50. When I hit 50 I will let you know if I see the problem at that level.

 

Congratulations on hitting 50, there Is no reported difference in level range to make this more or less apparent. Also 1.1.0b has Introduced enough of a fix so that it is not nearly as noticeable

 

 

On another note, could you please stop with the personal attacks? It got pretty nasty earlier to the point that moderator deleted nearly 3 pages worth of posts.

 

Please do not continue to quote my every reply inserting "in my opinion" and "i think". Most adults understand that this is a given in a conversation, one does not have to constantly reiterate "I think" and "in my opinion" as it is obviously so without the emphasis. Emphasis Is placed when something is stated as a fact, not otherwise.

 

In other words, when I say something it Is obviously In my opinion and It Is obvious that I believe so. However, when I state a fact, unless it is incredibly obvious I will emphasize it as a fact.

[LESHILL]

Xcore, I salute you and your mission to help make this game better.

[GodAres]

Congratulations on hitting 50, there Is no reported difference in level range to make this more or less apparent. Also 1.1.0b has Introduced enough of a fix so that it is not nearly as noticeable

 

 

On another note, could you please stop with the personal attacks? It got pretty nasty earlier to the point that moderator deleted nearly 3 pages worth of posts.

 

In my opinion Please do not continue to quote my every reply inserting "in my opinion" and "i think". Most adults understand that this is a given in a conversation, one does not have to constantly reiterate "I think" and "in my opinion" as it is obviously so without the emphasis. I think Emphasis Is placed when something is stated as a fact, not otherwise.

 

In other words, when I say something it Is obviously In my opinion and It Is obvious that I believe so. However, when I state a fact, unless it is incredibly obvious I will emphasize it as a fact.

 

I agree

[Xcore]

I agree

 

I don't know whether you're trolling me, agree with me or disagree... How can it be "In my opinion Please...."?

[jtzako]

On my Trooper I never saw any of this 'delay' even before the patches. However, on my Jedi Knight I was getting certain abilities that couldnt fire even though they appeared to be 'ready' according to the hotbar. That has gone away as of this latest patch as far as I can tell.

[Xcore]

On my Trooper I never saw any of this 'delay' even before the patches. However, on my Jedi Knight I was getting certain abilities that couldnt fire even though they appeared to be 'ready' according to the hotbar. That has gone away as of this latest patch as far as I can tell.

 

I think that you're referring to Riposte and Retaliation stutter (can happen on other abilities, just giving common example). This is a big part of the "responsiveness" and feeling of connection to avatar that this thread is all about but certain delays and other issues still persist and are a seperate issue.