Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Vindor]

We shall wait for patch 1.1.1

 

But its not fixed by far

[lethal_ghost]

Still having problem with abilities going off have to click up to 5 times for then to go off and maul is still terrible apart from that all is good !

[mutharex]

Sorry, but I don't PvP. I like the aesthetics. Maybe they'll chop the animation and make it all ugly for just you competitive types.

 

That isn't 'sluggish' gameplay at all, from my perspective. It is one of the things that makes the game 'fun' for me because it makes sense. My toon just kicked a guy in his junk. It's balancing on one leg. I can understand that from your perspective you actually don't want any animations at all, but that's just plain, boring and ugly.

 

The fact that your only 'stuck' there for a fraction of a second honestly doesn't make that toon competitive? That seems like a bit of a cop out.

 

This is my main concern, like most people don't even notice any delay, maybe because I don't PVP.

I am afraid the animations and gameplay will be ruined to cater for "PRO Players", "Competivtive" or whatever they are. People say that WoW combat is very responsive, but it's ugly as well too... Hope BW just stick to fixing eventual sync problems

[-sasori]

I think the dodging as Tank animation which sometimes does not let you execute skills, says it all. (this should account for about any ability not activating properly) like the grenate explosion which let's your character lean back.

 

I remember an old interview where BW stated they want heroic epic [lightsaber] combat which should feel like actual combat (swords cross, getting visually parried or blocked or dodged).

 

To let the animations fully play out, they are intended to block other animations or not allow proper cutting or blending, however while i agree this is a worthy aim they completely failed combining it with the combat design overall.

 

If you prioritize aesthetic combat which has animations as a limit, you do not lay over a GCD.. YOU DO NOT.

Why? Because your animations should and will determine the ability to activate the next skill.

 

You do not create combat mechanics which require you to react fast and counter them, when everything is overwriten and desynced by pending animations. YOU DO NOT.

 

And the lack of responsiveness as the failed activation of skills proves the GCD is out of touch with the very idea of the combat system here. As BW finally partially confirmed this resulted in skills shown to be able to be activated but could not be executed due to running animations.

 

When they choose to discard autoattack, they did it for the animation cleanness. Autoattack used to be the main source of damage and skills had been something special you used on top of that. Clearly BW wanted SWTOR to be a button smasher, that way you don't need autoattack at all, skills should dominate your damage and activity. Why didn't they discard GCD too then is beyond me.

 

To even further prove my point, that GCD is the rather awkward element here, look at the ability queue. We only can queue up to 1 second via options but we get a default GCD of 1.5 second (alacrity not accounted) + animation lock.

 

In the best case i have to wait anyway to queue up skills. 1.5s GCD > 1s queue. so you want to press your next skill half into the GCD. To be safe rather nearly at the end of the GCD, but most animation locks get you beyond that. So you either press the skill when the GCD is up and HOPE it may execute and no animation lock happens. Or you button spam in vain to get the skill fired off after the gcd and and animation lock.

 

Which leads to button smashing to _ensure_ skill execution. -> use of Queue?

Unless they either increase the queue time or set it on skill amount order and not time frame, this "feature" is pretty much non functional.

 

Example: In Lotro your next queue skill executed no matter the other conditions as long as the skill was ready himself. Did not matter if your pre skill had been a 10 second channel skill or an instant punch. This is how a queue should work. Not time based.

 

 

This current design creates the total awkward combat feel we get.

 

This issue is especially noticeable during PVP, because the other players forced skills and the animation are FORCED over your ability to execute skills outside the intended timeframe (e. g. while flying).

 

If someone pulls YOU. You can push all the buttons you want, your client does not instantly gives you the visual feedback and until he does (you fly accross the screen to the enemy who pulled you) all button smashes are lost without visual indication.

 

Given the nature of the game, and latency this leads up to 1 second where you are unable to execute skills with no visible reason to it, _then get the visual feedback and the faded skillbar, and after the wonky "argh, towel around me" animation afterwards (while your skillbar is active again) you _may_ execute a skill then.

 

That also leaded to the issue with the imbalance of OPs in PVP. When they knock you down, you should (in theor) instantly be able to un-cc you and avoid beeing bursted to death. As it is now, from 0.5 to over 1 second prior to the unclocking your skill input get's lost (his skill execution is already recieved by the server but not visually on your client) and when you finally visually see him uncloaking and unloading the damage, you press your break free skill, which is also delayed up to another second because of the skill activation - animation issue. Effectively you are up to 5 seconds are disabled when in design you should only be disabled up to 1 second or two. This accounts to all CC thrown around.

 

At this point BW either fixes the priority and makes this game work with the GCD (or remove the GCD layer and let' attack speed determine animation speed and skill activation frame. Or Adjust _every_ skill / animation till the visual feedback is in sync with the skill execution and GCD.

 

And seeing how the skill animation from other players affect your ability to flawlessly execute skills outside the intended lock time (e.g. while flying) - this is going to be a lot of work which should have been done before beta.

 

 

So yes BW is right when they say it does take time. But i'm still not convinced this is ever going to be sorted out. Mainly because they really do need to get down to the concept of GCD and rework almost any skill for a fluid game expirience.

 

And i pretty much doubt that they will at this point get rid of the GCD

 

 

Anyway this is just my two cent. I'm eager to see how it plays out for good or bad. (I've seen a lot during the last decade in mmos's)

Edited January 25, 2012 by -sasori

[Eighthook]

This is my main concern, like most people don't even notice any delay, maybe because I don't PVP.

I am afraid the animations and gameplay will be ruined to cater for "PRO Players", "Competivtive" or whatever they are. People say that WoW combat is very responsive, but it's ugly as well too... Hope BW just stick to fixing eventual sync problems

 

I don't think they will slack everywhere else, maybe for a short period of time while they fix major issues for the "PRO Players" as you put it. In reality if you are a casual player you shouldn't see this much it probably still affects you just not as noticeably. Besides they should have a team for each section of gameplay; combat, visuals, pvp, etc

Edited January 25, 2012 by Eighthook

[Telendria]

This is my main concern, like most people don't even notice any delay, maybe because I don't PVP.

I am afraid the animations and gameplay will be ruined to cater for "PRO Players", "Competivtive" or whatever they are. People say that WoW combat is very responsive, but it's ugly as well too... Hope BW just stick to fixing eventual sync problems

 

you wait for the animation to play completely before you press button for next ability instead of pressing it as soon as GCD allows? I don't see the issue here.

[mutharex]

you wait for the animation to play completely before you press button for next ability instead of pressing it as soon as GCD allows? I don't see the issue here.

 

I often press it when the GCD allows it but playing with a 1.0 "queue", even if there is still 0.5 sec of animation left to finish, the attack will go off without my need to press the button again. Now, if to solve the issue they allow animation clipping, it could result in choppy/spastic combat animations, like in wow.

[Lethality]

you wait for the animation to play completely before you press button for next ability instead of pressing it as soon as GCD allows? I don't see the issue here.

 

...? Huh?

 

The game's combat is tuned around the GCD, and to maximize your output, you *must* execute as soon as it's available. Animation should never, ever get in the way of this.

[Eighthook]

...? Huh?

 

The game's combat is tuned around the GCD, and to maximize your output, you *must* execute as soon as it's available. Animation should never, ever get in the way of this.

 

I think the post you are referring to is for another conversation, where the poster doesn't want the beauty effects to disappear to fix the issue. The animations probably won't vanish anyway but may become shorter to accommodate.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Eighthook

[gurugeorge]

In any case, if pretty lengthy animations were a conscious design choice, then instant abilities should be firing off instantly and then let the animation play out before you can move on to the next ability while you're waiting for the gcd anyway. As it is now, there really is no excuse.

 

I think that's how it is intended, no?

 

The Jedi Knight leaping attack shows how it should be, I think - you hit the key and instantly you see the mob's health going down, and at the same time the (superb) leaping animation plays out. As the leap's going, presumably you are already pressing another attack that's off CD which is then queued up so that as soon as the leap animation has finished, the next attack will fire off.

 

That's how it strikes me it should work most of the time. The effect of an instant attack is instant, but the animation has to finish before the next attack will fire off.

 

There is some animation clipping meant to be with some attacks (e.g. interrupts), but I think most of the time, the queue is there for a purpose.

 

It's just a more leisurely style of play, with its own rhythm that you're supposed to get into.

 

Which, I think would be fine, the problem has been simply that it's been inconsistent. If everybody's on the same level playing field, then it's ok, it's just that when the system is unreliable it's annoying and frustrating, and one has no idea whether the playing field's level or not (you might be having a delay problem while the opponent isn't).

 

It might be worth BW coming out with an explanation of how the whole system is supposed to work and feel, as I suspect due to the problems, very few of us have a proper "sense" of how the whole thing is supposed to be.

 

For my part, the heavy animation clipping in WoW is one of the reasons I could never get into it. I prefer more of a compromise between look/feel and instant gratification (like in games like AoC, CoX, CO, etc.). I'd rather have some sense of weight and momentum to the avatar than a totally meaningless, weightless "feel" (i.e. something that's completely transparent to keypresses - I might as well just be playing some sort of whack-a-mole twitch game without avatars then). I suspect BW think the same way, but it would be nice to know for sure what the score is.

Edited January 25, 2012 by gurugeorge

[ThanosTitan]

you wait for the animation to play completely before you press button for next ability instead of pressing it as soon as GCD allows? I don't see the issue here.

 

You like being locked out of your cast bar because your guy keeps doing defense animations over and over? Yeah tanks that cant cast because they have incoming damage, why would a tank need to cast anything while tanking? Passive skills I cant control locking out the GCD, working fine?

 

If you cant see the problem with that, then please don't post in this thread again.

[Eighthook]

You like being locked out of your cast bar because your guy keeps doing defense animations over and over? Yeah tanks that cant cast because they have incoming damage, why would a tank need to cast anything while tanking? Passive skills I cant control locking out the GCD, working fine?

 

If you cant see the problem with that, then please don't post in this thread again.

 

I think you misunderstood something. The post you refered to was referring to the following post not the original post.

 

Sorry, but I don't PvP. I like the aesthetics. Maybe they'll chop the animation and make it all ugly for just you competitive types.

 

That isn't 'sluggish' gameplay at all, from my perspective. It is one of the things that makes the game 'fun' for me because it makes sense. My toon just kicked a guy in his junk. It's balancing on one leg. I can understand that from your perspective you actually don't want any animations at all, but that's just plain, boring and ugly.

 

The fact that your only 'stuck' there for a fraction of a second honestly doesn't make that toon competitive? That seems like a bit of a cop out.

 

 

I'd say something like read the whole thread before you post but there's too many posts in here for that. At least back track what you read so you can get what it was for. Calim fears they will cut the animations to improve the game play and Telendria was merely stating that instead of gimping everyone else by not allowing animation clipping you can wait for the animation to complete before starting the next ability.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Eighthook

[Terko_Koslah]

I like the direction this game is heading towards. Probably a lot thanks to this thread. Keep up the good work guys.

[Toonasty]

I like the direction this game is heading towards. Probably a lot thanks to this thread. Keep up the good work guys.

 

I wish basic mechanics were the only problem. This game is feeling stale already and I dont see it getting better anytime soon. The game just doesnt feel good but maybe that willl change for me in time i hope.

[Xcore]

Here we go again, people arguing about never having noticed any delay etc. which would be fine as long as they could admit to the possibility of simply not playing at a fast/competitive/high enough level to really suffer from it.

 

Then we have some absolutely ridiculous banter by some deluded, middle aged, wannabe great PvPer about reaction times and reflexes not mattering as much as strategy in PvP... fascinating that he also claims to never have noticed any responsiveness issues with SW:TOR...

 

 

Lastly (these i can sympathize with), people arguing that animations are more important than responsive gameplay. Well look, everyone here wants great animations, greater than those in WoW but not at the cost of gameplay.

 

The fact that you believe animations over gameplay is nice is irrelevant, you should try to understand thay no game and especially no MMO has ever become a success when taking that route of Animations over Gameplay. It is best if Bioware can preserve great animations and match WoWs level of gameplay but if one has to be chosen It must be Gameplay.

 

Why is it hard to grasp the deeper consequences of choosing animations over gameplay? If you do this you will never be able to match WoWs success... you'll turn the game into a niche just like all the other MMOs have gotten into for many varying reasons.

 

Even if you "love" animations, it would be in your best interest to favor gameplay because it Immediatly means more subscribers, more money, greater success and more people to compete against and play with...

[Xcore]

Don't know or care about WoW or any other game. Irrelevant to the non-problem of realistic animations of TORs combat.

 

 

 

Not accolades. Just actual results from casual PvP for a week. Proving that decent PvP players like me notice no supposed delay, at least in my class, nor when I bothered asking others in chat, and NO ONE noticed it. (excluding glitches, of course) Cause it's not a delay. It's realistic movements. Thus eliminating yet another one of the b.s. excuses. (remember how you and yours keep shifting the goalpost each time it's passed? Now you gotta make a new one, beyond "well you just don't PvP, so you just don't see it.")

 

 

 

 

OSIZE="2"]You, pretending anyone who doesn't "see it" simply isn't 'good enough' to see it. When quite a few have no problems, see no problems, and are no doubt better than whatever you supposedly are.

 

Anyhow, at least you got another bump for this thread, since that seems to be the real motivating factor in most responses in it.

 

 

 

@ Gangbot -- a thoughtful and measured response. I'd never guess you for a 'twitch-based' awareness.

 

 

 

[/size]

 

WoW matters to this threadline and discussion, if you enjoy being blind and discounting the game with the most responsive and fluid gameplay then that is your choice but you have no place in this thread.

 

I am not shifting goalposts, if you never noticed an issue with the responsiveness you play slow and imprecise with a low APM ratio. It had nothing to do with casual or hardcore...

 

You are right, if anyone until last patch didn't notice an issue they simply did not playing fast, precise, good enough to notice. I am sorry but this is reality.

 

We have had Top100 Raiders (myself Included), multi-gladiators as well as tournament playing professiknal gamers of Quake, CS:S, WoW, LoL, WC:3 (all proven) confirm these issues... Not a single player of these calibers has spoken against this (argued your position), I challenge you to find such individuals who can also prove their status through facebook links and profile matches on their Team/Clan pages.

 

 

The improvements made in 1.1.0b have been vast and on behalf of everyone (thousands) of supporters...you are welcome my friend. Please enjoy SW:TOR and its way towards market leader and 10 million subs.

[Inraika]

People talk like WoW is the only MMO with fluid responsiveness.

 

In my play through of DDO, I can tell that it has the same fluid responsiveness as WoW...

[Xcore]

People talk like WoW is the only MMO with fluid responsiveness.

 

In my play through of DDO, I can tell that it has the same fluid responsiveness as WoW...

 

WoW is not the only but it may be the best, it certainly is the most identifiable as its by far the most popular, using it as primary example makes perfect sense. I have never played DDO for example but I could list EvE Online as being amazingly precise and responsive as well... but it stops there, I had serious issues with any other MMO...

[asbalana]

My two credits worth.

 

I tested the changes extensively yesterday and found that the changes did significantly improve combat. I noticed two main improvements. First, I had no misfires meaning casts actually launched. I did not see animations launch, gcds start, and yet no damage taken by my target. The second thing was that casts launched much more quickly after I hit the button. I tried the mount and move, for example, and if I tried to move immediately after the cast bar finished but before the mount appeared then either it never appeared or did appear and I was dismounted. But the time between when the cast bar was done and I could actually move was significantly reduced.

 

As a result combat is no longer broken to the point that it is an exercise in frustration. I could actually chain attacks and execute them and plan / anticipate them three or more moves in advance. The sequence actually came off in most cases. I was actually able to play and look at the mob(s) that I was fighting and not stare at the ability bars. Combat actually has some "feel" to it. Although I again proved my (lol) gaming abilitys and that I was able to die in any given situation, at least there were no deaths by ability delay.

 

I think what has been done is a good first step. Still the combat system remains well broken. All things being equal and although the time is reduced, there is still a noticable delay between when you hit a button and the cast starts. Instants are still not instant in many cases. It is less than before, but still there. There are many abilities and their annimations (and hence execution) that are still out of whack. My SI has channeled annimations that actually never start or start half way through the channel bar. Some annimations still appear to play out after the gcd is done and stop the next cast.

 

So I see what was done as a first good step in a trip that has a way to go. It has made unplayable into tolerable, but that is it. I would note that my impressions are based solely on pve.

[Trucegore]

 

The fact that you believe animations over gameplay is nice is irrelevant, you should try to understand thay no game and especially no MMO has ever become a success when taking that route of Animations over Gameplay.

 

Except for just about every game that is not an MMO. Street fighter would have been junk if it had applied damage before you even punched or allowed you to roundhouse every second ( GCD ).

 

No one if arguing game play over animations, or animations over game play. That's "silly*" to say.

 

Animations, timing, damage and game play should be in sync. /fullstop

[Inraika]

WoW is not the only but it may be the best, it certainly is the most identifiable as its by far the most popular, using it as primary example makes perfect sense. I have never played DDO for example but I could list EvE Online as being amazingly precise and responsive as well... but it stops there, I had serious issues with any other MMO...

 

I've had issues with WoW that I didn't with DDO, its sad how its more popular.. its probably because of DDO's lack of PvP and the fact that it has gone F2P.

[asbalana]

Except for just about every game that is not an MMO. Street fighter would have been junk if it had applied damage before you even punched or allowed you to roundhouse every second ( GCD ).

 

No one if arguing game play over animations, or animations over game play. That's "silly*" to say.

 

Animations, timing, damage and game play should be in sync. /fullstop

 

I am not sure what you are getting at. Indeed the quality of game play and the annimations are both important. But how many people want to play a game where the quality of game play is lacking but the annimations are great. I certainly do not sit there and feel, "gosh that light saber swing was really neat and I want to do that again after I revive", as I am being stompted to death because I can't fight due to flaws in the game or the fact that my neat annimation reduces my ability to play. The key is to build a great combat system and then build great annimations around it, rather than the other way around or treating both concepts as equally compelling.

 

So take me out of your next to last line as I am not part of the "no one is arguing", because I feel that game play > annimations.

[Xcore]

Except for just about every game that is not an MMO. Street fighter would have been junk if it had applied damage before you even punched or allowed you to roundhouse every second ( GCD ).

 

No one if arguing game play over animations, or animations over game play. That's "silly*" to say.

 

Animations, timing, damage and game play should be in sync. /fullstop

 

The point is in street fighter and any fighting game responsiveness is huge, near complete perfection. When you hit a button it happens... Immediately... there Is no .2 delay. You're not understanding the threadline and arguement. It isnt about the Grenade "immediately" hitting the targer without traveltime...

[Starglide]

Today, after i've read about the ability delay changes i have renewed my canceled subscription and boy i was surprised.

 

Xcore, you should put a bigger sign, Bioware deserves it, the ability delay has been, for the majority of it and most of cases, FIXED.

 

Yes this is a different game, pvp feels fluid and silky smooth 90% of the time. Even in the extreme low fps ( read 3 fps) environment of Ilum, abilities work instantly and without a hitch, even clicking on world objects ( example: speeder on Alderan Civil War faction ship ) resolves instantly and gets you on your merry way.

 

There are still things to be addressed, some who are well written here by the op, some in other posts:

- some abilities not activating at all for several key presses

(ex: gunslinger's defensive skills while in cover , in hectic pvp environments)

- inability to get in cover ( via crouch ) and the following error

message "unknown effect result"

(ex: taking cover while on ALL ledges, via crouch skill)

- some animations not matching cast times

 

 

Most if not all of the above, are acknowledged and are on their way to be fixed.

 

Good job Bioware, the improvements in ability response times are great.

 

No it has not. And I refuse to commend BioWare for making abilities function. Anybody saying that the issue is fixed (or for the most part is), really needs to read the patch notes. Me and many others have been reporting the issue for well over 7 months now. Why should they get a pat on the back for finally prioritizing something they were so ignorant to ignore numerous times.

 

Not to mention we have no way to test the progression of this on the PTR since there are no character transfers and/or high level character creation allowance.

 

I will commend them when they deliver a completely tight and responsive system a la WoW. Because then and only then, have they done something no one else but a market leader has. That is something to commend.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Starglide

[Rokrz]

I stopped playing the last 2 weeks, only because the old character delay as a healing sith sorcerer was just not fun playing.

Just got imformed about patch notes and im currently DLing the client.

Glad that bioware responded so fast and hope that this improves the situation.

However i also hope they they will work to perfect this and make it fluid, since noticed that some people still see this problem. This will indeed make or break swtor so keep up the good work Bioware and perfect this.